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Really, the only two armies that I am concerned with double FoCs are IGs and Necrons, due to the ridiculous amount of cheap flyers they can spam.

^says the guard player

Even at 1 FoC, they could still spam tons of Flyers. Crons have them as DTs for goodness sakes.

Again, thats a codex problem, not a problem with having double FoC.

At that point you'll probably be playing apocalypse anyway. Which again somewhat detracts from the apparent threat of it.

Then fliers are only strong at the moment due to the lack of ways to really deal with them. That'll probably change as new books come out.

Grey Templar wrote:^says the guard player

Even at 1 FoC, they could still spam tons of Flyers. Crons have them as DTs for goodness sakes.

Again, thats a codex problem, not a problem with having double FoC.

You wont be so smug if I somehow won the lottery and start throwing 9+ flyers at you everyday

The 1999+1 is how we are going to play tournaments in my area.

The double FOC is just too easy to abuse.

18 Obliterators?
18 Crisis Suits?
18 Leman Russ Tanks?

The list goes on an on.

Although I do admit the Wolf List with the 6 Squads of Long Fangs is just plain wrong.

Reivax26 wrote:The 1999+1 is how we are going to play tournaments in my area.

The double FOC is just too easy to abuse.

18 Obliterators?
18 Crisis Suits?
18 Leman Russ Tanks?

The list goes on an on.

Although I do admit the Wolf List with the 6 Squads of Long Fangs is just plain wrong.

18 Crisis suits or Obliterators would actually be what either CSM or Tau needs to compete at that point level.
18 Basic Russes would be 2700 points (assuming all basics LRBT with no upgrades), so you are looking at 3000+ point games, in which case there are plenty of counters to them.

Long Fang's problem is that that they are way undercosted, like many other things in their codex.

The biggest thing people seem to be forgetting is the cost of the spam. Simply put, the more points that they put into LRBT or vendettas, the less points they are putting into troops that can do their job among other things.

A highly specialized list isn't inherently a bad thing, but will get destroyed when facing a list that isn't in its target audience.

-cgmckenzie

Yeah, I doubt if given the choice they'd go for 18 Crisis Suits anyway. Not that they're bad, but there are other options making restricting yourself in one direction a bit dumb.

As a Chaos and Necron player, double force org is wonderful! I can take 36 Wraiths at 2k, and I'm probably not gonna win, but it will look cool IMO. I also agree with the 18 oblits, that would be nice, if only I had some

If the new Chaos codex doesn't nerf Lash of Submission, don't be surprised if you see the Double Lash Prince setup with maxed out Obliterators above 2k.

My god at all the AP2 Templates that would be dropping everywhere from the Plasma Cannons.

Lash of Submission is one of "those things" that just might disappear when a new author comes along. It's not really embedded in the fluff enough to stay. but what do I know?

Jackster wrote:Really, the only two armies that I am concerned with double FoCs are IGs and Necrons, due to the ridiculous amount of cheap flyers they can spam.

Space Wolves can spam a ridiculous amount of ml's at 2k points, as well as a ridiculous amount of combi weapons. Without taking any armor which helps negate necrons huge advantages vs mechanized lists. Since you are going to see a lot more necrons, this only helps the puppies in the meta game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cgmckenzie wrote:The biggest thing people seem to be forgetting is the cost of the spam. Simply put, the more points that they put into LRBT or vendettas, the less points they are putting into troops that can do their job among other things.

A highly specialized list isn't inherently a bad thing, but will get destroyed when facing a list that isn't in its target audience.

-cgmckenzie

Why in the world would such a list/player care about scoring when all they do is table their opponent?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lolcanoe wrote:As a Chaos and Necron player, double force org is wonderful! I can take 36 Wraiths at 2k, and I'm probably not gonna win, but it will look cool IMO. I also agree with the 18 oblits, that would be nice, if only I had some

If you think that's good, wait until you see the roaring come back nob bikers are going to make.

That's the army that is really going to scare the crap out of me.

I largely fail to see the problem with having two FOC's.. At least some armies won't be obligated to make sub-optimal choices anymore just so they can reach 2000 points. I'm not really afraid of people spamming things like vendetta's anyway but that might be because my gaming group doesn't have the cash for lists like that

Brometheus wrote:Lash of Submission is one of "those things" that just might disappear when a new author comes along. It's not really embedded in the fluff enough to stay. but what do I know?

Lash will probably either stay, or change if it goes into a "Lore of Slaanesh" style

If you think that's good, wait until you see the roaring come back nob bikers are going to make.

Now that Vindicators and S10 vehicles are more useful, I doubt we'll see to much of a resurgence.

Robbietobbie wrote:I largely fail to see the problem with having two FOC's.. At least some armies won't be obligated to make sub-optimal choices anymore just so they can reach 2000 points. I'm not really afraid of people spamming things like vendetta's anyway but that might be because my gaming group doesn't have the cash for lists like that

So its ok for your meta, so it shouldnt be a problem for anyone else?


Brilliant.

imweasel wrote:

Jackster wrote:Really, the only two armies that I am concerned with double FoCs are IGs and Necrons, due to the ridiculous amount of cheap flyers they can spam.

Space Wolves can spam a ridiculous amount of ml's at 2k points, as well as a ridiculous amount of combi weapons. Without taking any armor which helps negate necrons huge advantages vs mechanized lists. Since you are going to see a lot more necrons, this only helps the puppies in the meta game.

They could have done that before already. That problem lies in mostly with their codex.

Disclaimer: I'm against it because it encourages poor army design.

For a faction like Eldar or Tyranids, I support it, otherwise, it is completely unnecessary.

It supports the net-list concept which I find so awful; repetition repetition repetition. I like to play with dual landraiders (assault ramps) but otherwise I like a tactically-diverse army.

Jackster wrote:

imweasel wrote:

Jackster wrote:Really, the only two armies that I am concerned with double FoCs are IGs and Necrons, due to the ridiculous amount of cheap flyers they can spam.

Space Wolves can spam a ridiculous amount of ml's at 2k points, as well as a ridiculous amount of combi weapons. Without taking any armor which helps negate necrons huge advantages vs mechanized lists. Since you are going to see a lot more necrons, this only helps the puppies in the meta game.

They could have done that before already. That problem lies in mostly with their codex.

I could never spam this many...especially twin linked.

Looks like everyone in this thread missed the big issue of 2000+ points: 12 henchmen squads with Coteaz. I seem to remember everyone running for the hills from that when the rumors of GK hit back in 5th. I'm sure somebody must have mentioned it elsewhere. 12 henchmen squads with up to 12 dakka dreads.

timetowaste85 wrote:Looks like everyone in this thread missed the big issue of 2000+ points: 12 henchmen squads with Coteaz. I seem to remember everyone running for the hills from that when the rumors of GK hit back in 5th. I'm sure somebody must have mentioned it elsewhere. 12 henchmen squads with up to 12 dakka dreads.

Amazing! I didn't know Coteaz could gain an additional +1000 points to his army list! No wonder they are so overpowered!

Coteaz = 100
Librarian with three powers of choice, including Shrouding = 165
10 three man henchmen squads, 1 Chimera, 9 psybolt razorbacks, 20 assorted plasmaguns and meltaguns, every squad with a meltabomb = 875pts
6 psyfleman dreads = 810
Aegis Defense line = 50
2000pts.

It really can get silly.

I'm on the fence about this whole discussion.

On one hand it doesn't really bother me for 2 reasons.

1. I play 1500-1850 99% of the time, so there's no second FoC anyways.
2. Who's going to pay the cash to build one of these hardcore armies only to have it benched, either by TOs forcing only 1 FoC, or by just running out of opponents to play after they are sick of it?

On the other hand, the FoC was a balancing tool in a lot of ways. Some units are (were? 6th is still too new to judge everything by the same brush) just so amazingly awesome for their points the only thing that stopped people from using nothing BUT them was the FoC.

30 Missile Long Fangs = 840 points of flexible death...and you just KNOW they will be getting flak missiles sooner or later. Hell, the SW elite slots were kind of packed as well, so it helps them there as well.
6 Annihilation barges = 540 points of AV13 Anti-light vehicle/infantry death.
I don't even want to do the math on a BA list with 6-9 predators of various types, but that could be annoying. Hell, 6 dev squads jammed behind some fortifications with FnP would be rough as well.
Crisis spam Tau wouldn't be fun to play against.
6 Ymgarl stealer squads? 6 Hive Guard packs? Hell, 3 of each would be mean enough. Then you get weird stuff like 6 Trygons or 120+ gargoyles.
18 Typhoon speeder BT list = yuck.

I mean, sure, it provides more opportunities for flavorful lists, but it also gives power gamers more tools to make the game less fun for people.It also removes the harder decisions of what to take after you max out on the good stuff when you can just take MORE of the really good stuff.

It boils down to the haves vs have nots.

Double FOC is great for those with the money to invest into tournament ready armies and bits to complete their armies. Most experienced tourney goers are not phased by this.

It is your average player who can field a half decent army of any particular kind that gets blown out of the water of facing the prospects of a list that adds more of something their lists either fear or dread.

Most of the responders here who argue for Double FOC are those who have the time and/or money to invest in that particular play of WH40k.

If you argue that it is not a disadvantage, your not technically wrong, as all codices benefit from this. Perhaps not all armies can fully take advantage of the 2x FOC, but it gives you the ability to field in spades what makes that codex strong.

If the examples happen to IG, GK, SW armies, then it shouldn't be a surprise; these codices are already hailed as strong rulebooks to begin with for their respective armies. Double FOC allows their armies to reach higher levels of efficiency.

I can only see this being a problem for players who cannot reach their codice's maximum potential under the new rules strictly because of two reasons; an inflexibility to adapt to a new rule set or because they cannot afford to adapt.

Of course, this is a friendly game, so players have to be ready to field armies for 1999+1 or 2000 points. If a tourney allows 1 FOC, then you have to accept it or move on. if it is 2x FOC, same rules apply.

But under friendly games, both players have to decide how they want to play. Its just courtesy for those with more (experience, money, ect.) to play down to those who cannot do what those with more can.

I do not think many want to see an Ork list field 360 Ork boyz on one table. I daresay you may run out of room.

If I fielded 360 boyz, I would be elated. I would also be incredibly rich.

I like it because it will allow me to field 3 dakkajets and all my deffkoptas(got 15 for 50USD from somebody on ebay) along with enough to make a true speed freeks list. This isn't too crazy expensive, especially since I have the requisite 4 troops sitting in my carry case(grots are cheap ) and normally run 2 HQ's. It also helps out some of the weaker codices who rely heavily on HQ choices(orks come to mind again).

But, as is any part of the game, there will be power gamers who figure out ways to break it. The best way to handle this is to simply not play them and get back to enjoying the game.

-cgmckenzie

imweasel wrote:
Brilliant.

Like I said.. me not being afraid of spamlists is mostly due to my meta.. I also said that it is a much needed option for some armies.. Selective reading?

If people spam certain things just don't play then anymore.. If it's at tournaments well you probably know you should have expected it and been able to counter it

Using only the normal FoC an IG player can reach around 21359p (this is without allies and fortifications).

Milisim wrote:I personally will not be playing anyone who wants to double FOC. Why? I view it as broken and not fun. My gaming time is my own. I do with it what I want to do.

I see Tau, Nids and Eldar as needing the 2nd FOC to compete with most armies, everyone else it reeks of abuse.

That's the problem precisely; the solution is for GW to update codices promptly (or - unbelievable as it might seem - for the studio to adequately balance their lists), not to introduce a sticking-plaster solution which already-overpowered/undercosted armies can further exploit.

Milisim wrote:I personally will not be playing anyone who wants to double FOC. Why? I view it as broken and not fun. My gaming time is my own. I do with it what I want to do.

I see Tau, Nids and Eldar as needing the 2nd FOC to compete with most armies, everyone else it reeks of abuse.

You are, of course, free to play whoever you want for whatever reason.

But using a 2nd FOC as your reason is about as sensible as not playing them because they've chosen to use 2 Heavy Support slots in a single FOC, or they've chosen to use 3 Troops slots. Or they chose to wear a red T-shirt.

The bottom line is, this is a game. If you don't think you are going to have fun playing against someone's list, DON'T PLAY THEM. If a tournament puts in wonky restrictions you don't like, get over it, it is their right and you don't have to play.

Everything is optional. (except death and taxes)

I dont understand this nonsense at all. Why is the community SOOOO quick to kill off a rule? 1999+1???? Its nonsense! Just play as the damn rules are written!