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Maelstrom808's outline earlier really explained this for me.

Look at the rule again, all 3 sentence.

"When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

What we are checking is how many units we can keep as reserves. This is the "calculation."

"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so."

For the calculation above, ignore units that must start in reserve.

"A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

These purposes must mean the same thing as "the purposes" mentioned in the prior sentence. That purpose is for the calculation above.


So - you can ignore the Doom Scythe for the calculation. You can even ignore the Necron Warrior for the calculation.

But what is the calculation is for - it is to determine how many units you CAN put in reserve.

So -
you have overlord, overlord, and the rest fliers with necron warriors. Ignore the warriors for "these purposes" - that means the calculation. So you do the calculation and you get a total of 2 units (half of which is 1).


You now have permission to put ONE unit in reserve that doesn't have to start in there. Necron Warriors do not have to start in reserve. Therefore, out of all your warriors and overlords you only have permission to place ONE in reserve.

No other rule provides you permission to place the Necron Warriors in reserve.

yakface wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
So the transport, and its contents are a single unit for figuring out how many units may reserve, and part of that unit must start in reserve and is ignored for the 50%, so the whole unit is ignored for the 50%.

I'm right up with on your logic until you get to this point, which is where you make an unsupported leap (IMHO, of course).

Just because the unit and its transport is considered a single unit for determining how many units may start in reserve and just because the transport is ignored, there is no supported reason to assume this same proviso carries over onto the embarked unit.

It is because they are considered one unit for this purpose, as stated on P.124 Left Column, 6th graph, 2nd and 3rd sentences.

yakface wrote:In other words, the embarked unit, like all units in the army MUST be counted for determining how many units may be put into reserves unless it has a rule which specifically says that it is ignored.

It does, P.124 Left Column, 6th graph, 2nd and 3rd sentences covers it for being ignored, since the unit and its DT are one unit in this case, and this combined unit must be held in reserve for the purposes of determining 50%.

We also get into the silly example of every unit that buys a DT now can not start the game embarked upon them, as some of them "must" be deployed?

The whole thing boils down to the issue of the warriors and their DT.

Basically the following quote is telling us implicitly, that the warriors must start the game in reserve because a unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.

"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

It says "A unit and its Dedicated Transport" What unit? "Units that must start the game in reserve"

So the real question is Must a Flyer DT with a unit embarked start the game in reserve?

I have a question/comment.

From my understanding of the rules, the Necron Warriors that buy a Night Scythe don't have to start in the Night Scythe. They could choose to start on the board, or in normal reserve.

How would any other interpretation of the rule deal with that fact? Do you get the right to reserve them normally because they aren't part of the count? I don't see how the rules as written work any way unless detailed per the math above.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Unless they are embarked, then they do not count, and you may keep them in reserve aboard their Dedicated Transport.

As I said "embarked unit" is ignores as it may start in reserve aboard its Dedicated Transport.

Being embarked or not is never mentioned in this. Please cite where being embarked gives you permission to ignore the embarking unit, or let it even count as one unit with the transport for anything other than reserve rolls.

Just to clarify: You mean "count as one unit with the transport for anything other than PLACING in reserve and reserve rolls"?

Or do you think the transports go into reserve, but you must deploy the warriors?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which would make me wonder what you think a dedicated transport is and why it is called what it is called

Lobukia wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Unless they are embarked, then they do not count, and you may keep them in reserve aboard their Dedicated Transport.

As I said "embarked unit" is ignores as it may start in reserve aboard its Dedicated Transport.

Being embarked or not is never mentioned in this. Please cite where being embarked gives you permission to ignore the embarking unit, or let it even count as one unit with the transport for anything other than reserve rolls.

Just to clarify: You mean "count as one unit with the transport for anything other than PLACING in reserve and reserve rolls"?

No I don't mean that. They don't count as one unit when placing them in reserves. Taken from later on in the reserves section, where it talks about actually putting your units in reserves:

"...the player must specify if any units in reserve are embarked on any transport vehicles in reserve, in which case they will arrive together."

They are handled as two seperate units even while in reserves, they simply will arrive together if you embark them.

Or do you think the transports go into reserve, but you must deploy the warriors?

If you have already maxed out the number of units you may place in reserves, then yes the transport goes in reserve and the warriors must deploy as normal. Buying a transport for a unit in no way shape or form forces that unit to embark upon it or even deploy in the same manner. As long as you have the reserve capacity to do so, you may even place both in reserves, not embark the unit on the transport, and have them arrive in the same manner (i.e. walk on the table, both deepstrike, etc. as long as it is legal for them to do so), but roll seperate reserve rolls.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which would make me wonder what you think a dedicated transport is and why it is called what it is called

A dedicated transport is a means for a unit to take a transport vehicle outside of the normal limitations of the FOC, giving players the capability to fully mechanize without limiting their ability to put troops on the field. The trade off for this ability is only the unit that purchased the transport (plus any ICs that join that unit) may embark on it during deployment - hence the name dedicated transport.

Just so I understand the position (not saying anyone is wrong or right, just clarification):
A group of Tactical Marines in a Drop Pod would count as 1 unit for determining the number of units that can start in reserves, as they do not have to start in the Drop Pod. Whereas a unit of Termagants in a Mycetic Spore, would not count towards the limit since they MUST start in the Spore.
Is this correct?

The Deep Striking rules are written differently and is really the hope I have that this is not intended to work the way it reads. The way it's worded (they specify "along with any units embarked on them", rather than "a unit and it's dedicated transport") leaves the impression that it functions differently than the normal reserves version functions. The problem right now is timing for everything is extremly vague as well as the use of the "how many units" indicating a numerical value rather than a specification of which actual units.

EDIT: I realize that does not answer your question. under the reserves version, it functions as you described, under deepstrike...probably but the use of the term "embarked" leaves a lot more room for doubt.

yakface wrote:
Obviously it is entirely possible for GW to have screwed up not put the same explicit text into the basic Reserve rules that they did in Deep Strike because they thought it was clear. And of course if and when they FAQ this I know that I may be totally and completely wrong...but IMHO whenever there is a grey area like this, especially when you're talking about having an entire army play style dependent upon it, then players really should be sticking with the least advantageous interpretation until GW comes out and explicitly says: yeah, go for it with your all flyer army.

Advantageous to Matt Ward who happens to be one of the three authors of 6th ed BRB and codex Necrons?

In any case, I hope this gets addressed in FAQ.

I was reading this over earlier and here's my .02:

The debate here is being taken out of context and trying to put in a phase of reserves that simply doesn't exist. Nowhere in the rules does it say "Phase 1, calculate how many can start in reserves, and for this phase, we're going to count dedicated transports and their units as 1 combined entity. Phase 2, stop counting dedicated transports and their units as 1 combined entity and then work out which units are actually in reserves. Phase 3, deploy your units, and now they can count together again"

Just to point this out... This would go further than just the Necrons... It's just more pronounced with them. Example:

Space Marine HQ
Unit 1 of Marines - Rhino
Unit 2 of Marines - Rhino
Unit 3 of Marines - Rhino
Unit 4 of Marines - Rhino

Now... I don't think this argument would have even arrisen if the Space Marine player said, I have 4 units + 1 HQ I can stick 3 things in reserve (you round up) and so I'm sticking the HQ in with Unit 2, and reserving units 1-2 in their Rhino, and deploying units 3-4 in their Rhino. However... Applying the rules that are being proposed here... This Space Marine would then have "permission" to reserve 3 units, but then they would stop counting together, and he could only reserve 1 Rhino with the Marines in it and his HQ... OR, if he decided that he wanted to deploy his HQ, then 1 of the units of Marines would be forced to get out of their Rhino and not deploy together.

Now that I've pointed that out. Lets get the FULL rules into play here:

"When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and it's Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes. Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another unit or not. During deployment when declaring which units are kept as Reserves, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his Reserves to the opponent.

First he must specify to the opponent if any of his Independent Characters left in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will arrive together. Similarly the player must specify if any units in reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in reserve, in which case they will arrive together."

So: with the FULL quote we can see that it tells us that:
- When deploying their armies a player can choose not to deploy up to half of their units.
- Units that must start in reserve are ignored for working out how many other units may do so.
- A unit and it's Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes. (Both the ignoring them in they are in the NS which can't deploy, AND the actualy when deploying)
- It then goes on to specifically say that even if you stick an IC in a transport that one always counts.
- And lastly it gives us the order of how we should go about this.

As such: If I were to bring the following list:

Overlord
5 warriors - Nightscythe
5 warriors - Nightscythe
5 warriors - Nightscythe
Monolith

Now, walking through the decisions. A player can choose not to deploy half my units (8 total units, so 4). Units that must start in reserve are ignored for working out how many may do so (5 units then, so 3). A unit and it's dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes (2 units left so 1, but I want to start my overlord with one of the warrior units, so does he count? it's unclear). IC's in a transport always count (2 units left, so 1, how nice of them to clear up the previous ambiguity!). Now I have to tell my opponent what my plans are so he's clear (but... but... but... a good strategist NEVER reveals his plans! And you want me to reveal my plans to my ENEMEY!?!?!? )

That's it... There is no additional phase/rule where now that I've worked out that I can have 1 person in reserve that all of the above rules cease to function and all of a sudden I have to take my warriors back out of their dedicated transports.

Side funny note: yes it would be possible if I didn't take the Monolith to take 1 HQ, round up, and be allowed to stick him in reserve with no one on the table... I would then immediately lose the game.

Summary: "A unit and it's Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes." That sentence refers not only to the 1 sentence immediately before, which is what people are citing and where we get this thought process of "NS + Warriors are ignored for the overall count but then count again for the actual deployment part". It ALSO applies to the sentence before that, which details the actual deploying.

FireBlade wrote:
- A unit and it's Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes. (Both the ignoring them in they are in the NS which can't deploy, AND the actualy when deploying)

And every single person who has argued this point gets to exactly right here and then makes the leap of logic that you have precisely here.

NOWHERE do the rules indicate that because an embarked unit and its transport count as a single choice that the embarked unit is now ignored. We all agree that the transport is ignored. We all agree that the transport and the embarked unit count as a single unit.

But there is just as much basis to say that the transport+embarked unit need to be counted as there is to say that they are now ignored, because there are two units that count as one, one of which is ignored and the other that isn't.

And yet again, the Deep Strike rules show the level of specificity that would be needed to make your argument logically valid. The rules need to SAY that an embarked unit on a transport is also ignored, because just saying that they count as a single unit does NOT remove the need to count the embarked unit against the number of units you need to deploy.

I think we're getting a bit in the weeds here. I'm going to try and simplify this argument. There are two interpretations of the rules here. One however results in the game being stupid, so I'm going to say that the non-stupid rule is the right one.

If I (or lets be honest here, my opponent) buys a flyer as a dedicated transport for his unit, those two units had damn well both be able to start in Reserve. If they can't, the game is stupid.

Maelstrom808 wrote:Overlord = 1
Overlord = 1
Warriors + Night Scythe = 0 (They are counted as a single unit for being a unit and it's dedicated transport, and are ignored since the transport must start in reserves)
Warriors + Night Scythe = 0
Warriors + Night Scythe = 0
Warriors + Night Scythe = 0
Doom Scythe = 0 (Must start in reserves, so it is ignored)
Doom Scythe = 0
Doom Scythe = 0

Total = 2, cut in half and rounded up = 1.

We are done calculating how many units may start in reserve, our permission to count the Night Scyythe and Warriors as a single unit (and ignore them as a single unit) ends.

Now we can determine what actual units are going into reserves. Which units are not forced to start in reserves?

Overlord
Overlord
Warriors
Warriors
Warriors
Warriors

You may place one of these units in reserve.

Even if this is the interpretation of the rules that is most consistent with the precise wording of the rules it results in a ruling that is stupid. The english language is inherently ambiguous. Can we just decide to go with the ruling that's not stupid?

I had 6 Scythes ship out to my house today, I would LOVE to!!! I promise that regardless of if it gets FAQ'd one way or another, if you and I play, that's the way we will play it. I will also gladly play it the non-stupid way with anybody that is willing. However, if someone does want to play strictly by the RAW, the way I showed it is how it needs to be played, imo.

If it makes anyone feel better, I think that if it does get a FAQ, it will be FAQ'd so that the transport and the unit count as one unit for the entire reserves thing...that's my hope anyhow.

For the people that think the Warriors simply "don't count" for the math at all -

In the list:

Overlord
Warriors - scythe
Warriors -scythe
Warriors -scythe
Monolith

Your math says you can place one unit into reserve and that would presumably be the overlord or the monolith, ignoring the warriors for this purpose.

Would you allow the Necron warriors to start in "normal reserve" (not embarked upon the flier?) If so, or if not, please provide rules support.

I've wondered this same thing, but about Drop Pods. The intuitive response would be that when you take the Warriors from the Night Scythe they lose the "must start in reserves" exemption. If you assume that the troops are primary to their transport, then the Warriors would count as one unit and then the Scythe would be ignored (because it must start in reserve). That would be effectively the same thing as if the Warriors could start on the table w/ the Scythe. So in both cases the Scythe itself is effectively ignored as the rules suggest that it should be.

I agree that is intuitive, but that's simply not what the rules say. FireBlade is trying to argue there aren't "phases" where you walk through your decisions.

If you argue that the warriors are ignored for the count, they are ignored. You can't have it both ways.

And this is why the calculation walk through is currently the only way the rule makes any sense.

I disagree. That's a pretty reasonable interpretation of the rules. Are the Warriors embarked in a Scythe? -> They must start in reserve -> they don't count against the number of units who can reserve.

Are the Warriors not embarked? -> They're not required to start in reserve -> They (along with their Scythe) count as 1 unit.

The only assumption this requires is that the Night Scythe doesn't transfer its "must start in reserves" to the Warriors under all circumstances, which I think is a pretty easy assumption to make.

It also works in that the logical implications of this interpretation don't make you do stupid things like not being able to start units in their purchased transport.

Yeah, troops that cannot ride in their own dedicated transports? I know you guys really want to nerf the Cron Air Force any way you can before it even exists, but thats pretty much reaching with semantics. Its pretty clear what the intent is and what involves less hassle. The no unit on table = autolose is the counterbalance.

I recently was sorting this stuff out for an Army List idea I have.

Reserve (page 124)
- When deploying their armies, players may choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them in Reserve to arrive later.
- Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.
- Independent Characters count as separate units regardless if they have joined another unit or not.

Deep Strike (page 36)
- When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored.
In addition, a unit that must arrive by Deep Strike (such as a Drop Pod) must do so even if you are playing a special mission where the Reserves special rule is not being used.

Aerial Support (page 80)
- Flyers must begin the game as Reserves - it takes time for a Warlord to organise and coordinate air support.

Those were all the relevant entries to Reserves I could find in the rule book. So it comes down to what kind of Dedicated Transport is it?

Any Transport (Dedicated or not) that must enter play via Deep Strike is actually quite powerful. Any models embarked on it gets ignored when determining the total number of units you have to deploy on the table.

Any Dedicated Transport that is a Flyer also gets ignored, but the unit embarked on it is not.

A little confusing at first but simple enough once we take a hard look at it. Now I just need to find out if there is a consensus on Al'Rahem's Chimera's counting as part of the Platoon in 6th Edition... Its unfortunate that the "purposes" in the Reserves rule seems to refer to just working out how many units you can Reserve.

While I will admit that they could word this better... Again I'm going back to saying look at the entire entry for the Reserves Rules... rather than looking at 1-2 sentences and how they interact.

Yakface wrote:

FireBlade wrote:

- A unit and it's Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes. (Both the ignoring them in they are in the NS which can't deploy, AND the actually when deploying)

And every single person who has argued this point gets to exactly right here and then makes the leap of logic that you have precisely here.

NOWHERE do the rules indicate that because an embarked unit and its transport count as a single choice that the embarked unit is now ignored. We all agree that the transport is ignored. We all agree that the transport and the embarked unit count as a single unit.

But there is just as much basis to say that the transport+embarked unit need to be counted as there is to say that they are now ignored, because there are two units that count as one, one of which is ignored and the other that isn't.

And yet again, the Deep Strike rules show the level of specificity that would be needed to make your argument logically valid. The rules need to SAY that an embarked unit on a transport is also ignored, because just saying that they count as a single unit does NOT remove the need to count the embarked unit against the number of units you need to deploy.

The thing is it's not a "leap of logic". I'm trying to figure out how to put this without sounding like an asshat... it may not work... but just know that it's NOT my intention. Because there's so much rules lawyering, a lot of these rules are written in a manner that reminds me of some of the contracts that I have to review for work. One thing to keep in mind is that a sentence applies to all previous sentences in the same paragraph. Hence, when it says "for these purposes" it applies to both things, because
1) if they meant that it only applied to 1 of the two preceding sentences then they would have said "for this purpose".
And
2) because when it says "for these purposes" it is after those two sentences. This is the same reason that we know that an IC is ALWAYS counted, regardless of if they are / aren't in the NS, because that is mentioned at the end.

Also, for people who are comparing this rule with the Deep Strike rule and saying that "it can't work this way, because that one is more specific". Keep in mind that the DS rule is not designed to apply to all reserves, and as such it can be worded differently because the "...(along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored" only applies to 1 single sentence, which is the only sentence it NEEDS to apply to in that case. Hence, the reason that it was worded that the unit and their DT are counted as 1 unit "for these purposes" (not for 1 of the previous 2 purposes listed).

However, the DS rule states that "When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored." If we break this down into the proposed "first you calculate how many units CAN be placed into reserve, then we separately work out how many units actually MUST be placed into reserve. When we're working out how many CAN be placed into reserve we ignore (like it tells us), but when we're working out how many we actually MUST reserve we stop ignoring it (like it never says). Then we actually get the same problem. Hence, most drop pods would be showing up empty...

Further more... Beyond even the more pronounced examples of Drop Pods / Fliers. The rules that are being proposed by Yakface, Killjoy00, or Maelstrom808 would have implications on a basic army of:
1HQ
5 Troops + Dedicated Transports

Because by your explanations, you are saying 5 troops, + 1HQ = 6 total so 3 allowed in reserve. So out of that entire army, 1 Rhino, 1 troop, and the HQ can be placed into reserve. The rest have to deploy. OR, if you wanted to deploy your HQ, then 1 of your Rhinos would have to deploy empty.

I just want to make sure that if you are going to rule it this way, and nothing is going to change your mind to this, that you are at least being consistent for your own armies (or rather the rest of the armies) , not just the Necron Fliers.

Now... All this being said though. I think though that at the end of the day Amerikon made the best point here... it's just silly that there would be any rule that makes it so you can take a dedicated transport BUT... not ride in it. Especially since you can't get into a Nightscythe once you get out... Why make them a transport at all if they actually can't carry anything???

I've pretty much said what I've got to say on it, and have not seen any compelling arguments that I think hold enough water (no offense intended) to change my mind. At this point I'm sitting back and seeing what happens with it.

I do want to add one last thing though. To those that are either hinting at or blatently accusing me of being biased on this in an attempt to nerf Necron fliers, read my my posts in this thread, take a look at my sig, maybe take a look at the type of armies I've been building over the last 8 months or so:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/455908.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423855/3831395.page#3831395
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/420902/3751846.page#3751846
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/416581.page

...then come back and tell me with a straight face that I'm doing this just so I can get Necron fliers nerfed.

@ Maelstrom808

Please don't think that was something I was intending to imply. I did read that you have 6 of the bad boys on the way (which IMHO... regardless of how you decide to play... THEY LOOK WICKED!). I named you as I was merely posing a question to the 3 of you that are the prime proponents of the "no deploying in your NS ruling" that if you follow that logic it expands to so much more than just the NS... That's something that everyone skipped over on my original post and I was trying to draw attention to that.

It's all good, your post wasn't the one that particularly got under my skin. I also am well aware of the further implications of this beyond just flyers and "must start in reserve" units and actually was discussing it with a buddy earlier today. The thing is, as I see it, there is no "fair" way to rule it. If you rule it as I suggest, you unfairly punish reserve lists that utilize dedicated transports en masse. If you it the opposite way, these lists have an unfair advantage against the 50% limitation to reserve units. (EDIT: Sorry, really just the lists with dedicated transports that must start in reserves gain the advantage. Normal dedicated transports work in the spirit of the rule imo) There really is no middle ground imo.

I don't care how it turns out either way as I've built lists to account for either ruling using the same number of flyers. I just want to know what to expect so I know what list I should get used to playing.

and UPS just showed up about 15 minutes ago

Maelstrom808 wrote:It's all good, your post wasn't the one that particularly got under my skin. I also am well aware of the further implications of this beyond just flyers and "must start in reserve" units and actually was discussing it with a buddy earlier today. The thing is, as I see it, there is no "fair" way to rule it. If you rule it as I suggest, you unfairly punish reserve lists that utilize dedicated transports en masse. If you it the opposite way, these lists have an unfair advantage against the 50% limitation to reserve units. (EDIT: Sorry, really just the lists with dedicated transports that must start in reserves gain the advantage. Normal dedicated transports work in the spirit of the rule imo) There really is no middle ground imo.

I don't care how it turns out either way as I've built lists to account for either ruling using the same number of flyers. I just want to know what to expect so I know what list I should get used to playing.

and UPS just showed up about 15 minutes ago

Hoo-boy that's ballsy, IMHO! I would be so afraid of creating an army based on flyers at this point. Not just because of this ruling...but also because the entire thing hinges upon how much Skyfire GW puts into new codexes, which is something we have no idea about right now, but we no that they've got at the very least, flakk missiles ready to go.

So all it takes is for GW to start letting just a few really cool skyfire enabled units here and there into codexes and all of a sudden the entire army concept goes down in a blaze of glory.

But until then, I suppose you will have a field day!

I'm with Fireblade.

Yak, this is one of those rare ones on which I completely disagree with you.

Mannahnin wrote:I'm with Fireblade.

Yak, this is one of those rare ones on which I completely disagree with you.

Hey, we know it happens.

Has 6th edition changed your opinion on Dreadnoughts pivoting before checking LOS, BTW?

FireBlade wrote:
Now... All this being said though. I think though that at the end of the day Amerikon made the best point here... it's just silly that there would be any rule that makes it so you can take a dedicated transport BUT... not ride in it. Especially since you can't get into a Nightscythe once you get out... Why make them a transport at all if they actually can't carry anything???

Yeah, I look at it kind of like there are some dedicated transports you can take that units can't ride in because their squad size is too large...SoB squads taking Immolators, for example.

But more to point, I see the whole point of the Reserve rule meaning that all Reserve armies are basically not allowed except for extreme cases, with that being the all Deep Striking army because they went out of their way to do so, knowing that in ALL those cases those armies have special rules that force them into play on the 1st turn.

Flyer armies do not have that proviso, so yes I think they designed the rule specifically to allow you to take such an army (all flyers), but the penalty will be that you still have to start several units on the table at the start of the game. Because taking the all flyer army, besides all the benefits you get from being protected by being a flyer, you're also able to deny your opponent two turns of shooting at you if you're going 2nd and are able to hide a single model behind a piece of terrain.

I think that seems antithetical to what GW has publicly expressed as the philosophy behind this edition. Fireblade's seems more in keeping with verisimilitude/"associative" (as Jervis called them) mechanics. Yours seems less associative but possibly more balanced, mechanically.

yakface wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I'm with Fireblade.

Yak, this is one of those rare ones on which I completely disagree with you.

Hey, we know it happens.

Has 6th edition changed your opinion on Dreadnoughts pivoting before checking LOS, BTW?

Good question! I just looked at it, and I haven't done a line by line comparison with the 5th ed rules, but on my initial read it appears to me that the rules are identical or near-identical. If there's any change (there's the bold text, at least) it may be even more clear that pivoting comes after determining LOS and after target declaration.

yakface wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:It's all good, your post wasn't the one that particularly got under my skin. I also am well aware of the further implications of this beyond just flyers and "must start in reserve" units and actually was discussing it with a buddy earlier today. The thing is, as I see it, there is no "fair" way to rule it. If you rule it as I suggest, you unfairly punish reserve lists that utilize dedicated transports en masse. If you it the opposite way, these lists have an unfair advantage against the 50% limitation to reserve units. (EDIT: Sorry, really just the lists with dedicated transports that must start in reserves gain the advantage. Normal dedicated transports work in the spirit of the rule imo) There really is no middle ground imo.

I don't care how it turns out either way as I've built lists to account for either ruling using the same number of flyers. I just want to know what to expect so I know what list I should get used to playing.

and UPS just showed up about 15 minutes ago

Spoiler:

Hoo-boy that's ballsy, IMHO! I would be so afraid of creating an army based on flyers at this point. Not just because of this ruling...but also because the entire thing hinges upon how much Skyfire GW puts into new codexes, which is something we have no idea about right now, but we no that they've got at the very least, flakk missiles ready to go.

So all it takes is for GW to start letting just a few really cool skyfire enabled units here and there into codexes and all of a sudden the entire army concept goes down in a blaze of glory.

But until then, I suppose you will have a field day!

Not really I was entirely comfortable with the concept of everything shooting at them at full BS in 5th, so it really doesn't matter how many units they add with skyfire. The units that scare me are the ones with skyfire AND interceptor. Also, for the issues we've been discussing here, I've got ways around it in my standard lists that don't hurt the overall effectiveness of the list much, while at the same time giving me the same number of flyers.

If everything goes south, and the worse possible combination of rulings + units go against me, I've already got a fairly large non-flyer army that I can mix and match to simply create a more balanced force and save the extra flyers for the occasional 4k games we play. That said, I'm sure if that happens, you'll still hear me gripe about it on here

The biggest thing I'm dreading right now? All the freaking painting I've got to do. I hate hardlining, but it's how I did my monolith, so I need the rest of the vehicles in the force to match, and on top of the flyers, I've still got 3 1/2 barges to finish, a full unit of Lychguard, 9 crypteks, a unit of Immortals to paint, and about 7-8 destroyers that I need to repair...and that's just my crons :(

Happyjew wrote:Nid Spore lists are just as screwed as Flyer Transport lists. Of course as it stands, right now Nids are the only army that can make a list where everything is in reserves and cannot come in til Turn 2.

Not correct, Necrons can take an all Flyer list(Night Scythes and Doom Scythes)

Grey Templar wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Nid Spore lists are just as screwed as Flyer Transport lists. Of course as it stands, right now Nids are the only army that can make a list where everything is in reserves and cannot come in til Turn 2.

Not correct, Necrons can take an all Flyer list(Night Scythes and Doom Scythes)

How can Tyranids start fully in Reserve?

They don't have any HQ which can go into a pod, do they and therefore at the very least they have to start 1/2 of those on the table.

You round up.

Keep the HQ in reserve (1/2 of 1 rounded up is 1).