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They aren't poorly thought out. They're designed for something entirely different than what you assume they are designed for.

Namely, product recognition. They've succeeded quite handily in that department, so that makes them well designed.

I think the old GW "rule of cool" is what is the driving force in their miniatures and vehicle designs. I understand that for some, like Ciaphas, that odd or inefficient vehicle designs aren't cool to them. For the rest of us, a design that would work poorly in reality is fine by us in the sci-fi setting that the game is based. Besides, the GW vehicles do look cool.

Have people who complain about 40k tanks being too small actually done any calculations? They're bigger than most real tanks if you assume the scale of inch = 5'. Rhino and Chimera would be about seven metres long.

Also, I've seen a picture of ten Rogue Trader marines modelled inside an old rhino. I think you might be able to similarly squeeze ten current marines in the new rhino.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum: what skews peoples perceptions is the fact that the heroic scale miniatures are way bulkier for their height than real people.

Wait wait wait stop hold the phone for a second i just want to make sure i got this right.

So the thing that makes you mad about realism is the shape of the tanks right?

not the fact that we have genetically enhanced space marines with 2 hearts 4 lungs can keep fighting after loosing an arm and run around with armor that would weigh as much as a VW bug

how about bolters? they are shooting rounds that are the size of a base ball, that would rip your arm off even if you where a SM

or the fact that we have a dead dude sitting on a throne thats kept alive by 1000 souls a day

or that SM can survive an orbital drop in a drop pod with out turning into paste when they hit the ground.

Its a game just enjoy the non realism of the game could you image how lame star wars would have been if they tried to be realistic?

A. It's heroic scale... no realism whatsoever, artistic value and rules are why things are the way they are.
B. It's a game. Never has it made the claim to being realistic. There are alien elves, zombie robots with feelings and 9 foot high super soldiers who worship a dead man. Why is it that you want realism at all?

Even in 40k fluff, the rule of cool will always win. In the Gaunt's Ghosts series (one of my all time favorites, even after I left 40k) "regular" guardsmen hip-fire twinlinked autocannons which are later in the series described as individually the size of a howitzer. Never once have I seen a man lift a single howitzer, let alone two, not to mention firing something like that on full auto. Do I have a problem with it? Hell No! It's fiction, by definition you have to suspend realism.

Squidmanlolz wrote:
B. It's a game. Never has it made the claim to being realistic. There are alien elves, zombie robots with feelings and 9 foot high super soldiers who worship a dead man. Why is it that you want realism at all?
.

Just because they have that doesn't mean basic physics don't apply, its a dumb argument, really.

Bobthehero wrote:

Just because they have that doesn't mean basic physics don't apply, its a dumb argument, really.

Necrons called, they broke your physics a long time ago

Bobthehero wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:
B. It's a game. Never has it made the claim to being realistic. There are alien elves, zombie robots with feelings and 9 foot high super soldiers who worship a dead man. Why is it that you want realism at all?
.

Just because they have that doesn't mean basic physics don't apply, its a dumb argument, really.

While that's true, I think the Squid Man is trying to convey the feeling that NOTHING in the game is a realistic scale. The heads, hands and weapons are all over-sized, the poses unworkable, etc. The design aesthetic cares very little for practicality, and only concerns itself with looking cool.

Some people find this a turn-off. Others don't.

mwnciboo wrote:Moot = Mute both work , as it's quiet time Never really understood Moot because it's entymology means "meeting". It's a Meeting point?

Sorry, but 'mute point' is an barbarism to be avoided at all costs. The etymology (note spelling - 'entomology' is the study of insects) of 'moot point' comes from the UK's historical moot courts, where lawyers in training would argue hypothetical cases, i.e. 'moot points'. The lack of any substantive outcome from these theoretical cases has led to the 'unimportant/not worth discussing' meaning of 'moot point', which has spread beyond the legal profession.

DarknessEternal wrote:They aren't poorly thought out. They're designed for something entirely different than what you assume they are designed for.

Namely, product recognition. They've succeeded quite handily in that department, so that makes them well designed.

Bingo!

It's worth pointing out that in a 'realistic' Warhammer 40,000, weapon ranges would be multiplied by at least 10. (Early editions of Warhammer indeed included a note to this effect, explaining that even at 25mm scale, a realistic longbow would fire all the way across the room, which would be tactically rather uninteresting.)

Bobthehero wrote:
Just because they have that doesn't mean basic physics don't apply, its a dumb argument, really.

If you want to complain about physics then this whole game would be scrubbed,
Drop pods would be removed, None of the flying crafts would even be able to re enter a planets atmosphere with out being ripped apart.
No obe would would be able to fire a Bolter not even space marines unless they are mounted.
No laser guns would exists and if they did they would be the best weapon in the game from a physics stand point.
The plasma cannon would be work at all.
Orks would never be able to travel in space in their 'space crafts'
Necrons and all other types of robots would become inactive after they are hit by one bolter round.

if they applyed basic physics the game would suck. just play it as is and just be a kid again and pretend

No, basic physics don't apply, they're plastic models from story books, not real world warriors or weapons or vehicles.

What I'm upset about is that a tank moving at highway speeds is easier to assault than grots are, and poses no danger to the attackers, and as soon as something dings the armor 3 times it falls apart like a bad cartoon parody.

The track mounts are thick enough I decided there's probably an engine in each side. Those little rectangular vents would thus be the exhaust.

As far as I'm concerned, realism arguments for 40k have to start at chainswords. That is the most ridiculous piece of equipment ever conceived. Of course, I also think arguing 40k realism is idiotic, but seriously, start with the chainswords if you want to do it right.

Oh come on.... Tell me this isn't cool.



realism doesn't matter, if the concept is kewl, it's probably in 40k.

Bludbaff wrote:I decided there's probably an engine in each side.

There are. Imperial tracked vehicles all have engine and track in one independent unit.

Bobthehero wrote:
Just because they have that doesn't mean basic physics don't apply, its a dumb argument, really.

that argument falls down the second the phrase "the warp/c'tan did it" gets mentioned.

40k and realism? honestly? they should never be put into the same sentence together. its a wargame. not a warsim.

and for the record, 40k is not sci-fi. thats Infinity. 40k is a Fantasy setting, merely a dressed up one thats wearing a spacesuit. Pete Haines described it as "the dark ages with lasers". Nope, no science here bud.

Fantasy doesn't exclude a bit of science, otherwise, why would tank have or wheels or a barrel, or hell, why use tanks and weapon at all? Just have a chunk of rock, lift it up and you can now destroy everyone else things, because ''fantasy!/C'tan!/Warp Power!''.

Bobthehero wrote:Fantasy doesn't exclude a bit of science, otherwise, why would tank have or wheels or a barrel, just have a chunk of rock, lift it up and you can now destroy everyone else things, because ''fantasy!/C'tan/Warp Power''.

It's all done so GW can sell models, it's been that way from day one. Leman Russ' will sell more than a rock...

Deadnight wrote:
And for the record, 40k is not sci-fi. thats Infinity. 40k is a Fantasy setting, merely a dressed up one thats wearing a spacesuit. Pete Haines described it as "the dark ages with lasers". Nope, no science here bud.

Just to toss my two cents in here, I agree. 40k is Science Fantasy, not science fiction.

Don't care, looks cool.

Only thing that bugs me is weapon sizes. Those dark eldar pistols? Frikkin' huge! You'd never be able to one-hand those!

mwnciboo wrote:Oh come on.... Tell me this isn't cool.



realism doesn't matter, if the concept is kewl, it's probably in 40k.

Sign me up for one of those! On second thought, I'll take two!

Bobthehero wrote:Fantasy doesn't exclude a bit of science, otherwise, why would tank have or wheels or a barrel, or hell, why use tanks and weapon at all? Just have a chunk of rock, lift it up and you can now destroy everyone else things, because ''fantasy!/C'tan!/Warp Power!''.

but "because a wizard did it" sounds better

seriously mate, you're picking hairs and putting words in my mouth. i'll agree with you, but only to an extent - science has its place, but ultimately, "rule of cool" trumps both physics and realism in these settings. if you or others dont like it, then there is nothing for it other than not getting involved in make-believe.

infinite_array wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
And for the record, 40k is not sci-fi. thats Infinity. 40k is a Fantasy setting, merely a dressed up one thats wearing a spacesuit. Pete Haines described it as "the dark ages with lasers". Nope, no science here bud.

Just to toss my two cents in here, I agree. 40k is Science Fantasy, not science fiction.

But yet there is the word Science...not "Magic Fiction Fantasy" There should be some Science, in the Science Fiction...or it's just another Elves and Dragon story.

Sencho wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:Oh come on.... Tell me this isn't cool.



realism doesn't matter, if the concept is kewl, it's probably in 40k.

Sign me up for one of those! On second thought, I'll take two!

RicBlasko wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
And for the record, 40k is not sci-fi. thats Infinity. 40k is a Fantasy setting, merely a dressed up one thats wearing a spacesuit. Pete Haines described it as "the dark ages with lasers". Nope, no science here bud.

Just to toss my two cents in here, I agree. 40k is Science Fantasy, not science fiction.

But yet there is the word Science...not "Magic Fiction Fantasy" There should be some Science, in the Science Fiction...or it's just another Elves and Dragon story.

But that's exactly what it already is, it's just in space...

CDK wrote:If you want realism you are playing the wrong game dude lol

Seconded

Wow thx for the replies I really wasn't expecting much interest. I find the whole rule of cool thing is just a clever way to say nothing at all, clever marketing. Really. I think loads of things in 40k are cool and that's s good thing, but, and this is the whole point that some of you are missing, if a vehical is designed in such a way as to look stupid and unrealistic then thats what it is. Simple and that's lazy. There is nothing cool about a transport tank that has 7 guns, no engines, and the maneuverability of a dead walrus. And call the setting what you like I love it. Its set in the future and is fictional. It seems that there are so many people who leap to GWs defence at any critisim and swamp genuine discussion with statements like ' if you don't like it etc etc. I find this kinda funny. I don't know whether to believe those who say these forums are full GW staff blindly defending their product or not, but for me rule of cool doesn't mean a vehical can look stupid and none should question it. I have been involved in this hobby since the 1980s and ' dude your in the wrong hobby doesn't really apply.' Its topics like this over the years that have kept the hobby advancing and growing. Once all figures shared the same pose and some people were fine with this. Many of us wanted more and the results today are evident. As for realism, of course I want my vehicals to look realistic, why shouldn't I. Just the fact that its SCI FI don't mean it can't be realistic looking. Everything is SCI FI until it be comes reality.

While I agree with you on 40K AFVs not being very realistic, I should point out that when most people pick up a Chimera model they dont flip it over and start picking out all the unrealistic parts about it.

Really only a person with extensive knowledge about modern AFV engineering can even see all those fine points you pointed out in the previous page. This is quite different from being able to tell one figure from another, which most people can do.

Also, I dont believe IG vehicle designs were suppose to be incredibly realistic. They are realistic enough that most people can draw some parallel to real life vehicles, yet look crude and weird enough to give people a sense that this is an age where technology is going backwards.

And I know where I can find some incredibly realistic AFV models, they are across the room in my FLGS.

At the end of the day, when you look at even basic information about the universe you shouldn't expect any realism. 40k models are meant to look cool and put forward certain "themes" for its army. Not much else. It's an over-the-top sci-fi world where people fight with swords and airpower is negligible.

It's also a good point to say that imperium vehicles and tanks are mostly just up-gunned, up-armored tractors and farm vehicles. They are made to be very simple to repair and use, and to be easily replaced. Also, just because you notice all the so-called glaring flaws in the design does not mean most people do. I know that a lot of 40k players have military backgrounds, and thus notice these things, but a lot of use don't, and would never even notice that the front of a Russ is a huge bullet trap, or that there is no place on the chimera for an engine, or that most of the turrets in the game would break off the first time they fired. We look and see a tank that looks different from modern tanks, with cool guns and a WW1 feel. And that's good enough for us.

Ciaphas wrote:One of the worst examples is the IG Chimera. If it were real it would become immovable once it had sunk 2 inches into to the ground. Even WW1 tanks were better designed.

Same side profile as Chimera and Leman Russ, still managed to cross No Man's Land.