Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

CDK wrote:If you want realism you are playing the wrong game dude lol

That

Also if they make the models bigger, that would give GW another reason to increase prices.

As far as scale goes, IG models are almost the exact same size as Space Marines, who are supposed to tower over normal men, observe:

With this in mind, if you were to keep the IG model the same you would need to increase the size of the SM considerably, and then increase the size of the Rhino by about 30% or so, the Land Raider would also need a size increase of around 20% (rough numbers, obviously)

So yeah, the scale is completely off, which bothers me...but other than that, the physics really don't...this is a universe where a man's body has been wired into a machine that uses his consciousness to power an astral relay and allow for literally millions of ships to travel through warp space every single day...a man that is apparently an anti-type of every major religious figure of today's world (or something)...his mind does all of this through the use of a machine that is powered by the energy of thousands of sacrificed people every day...and you've got a problem with the ground clearance of a tank? lulz

It's not just the "ground clearance" and I am sure we all agree that scall is not the issue, which people seem to ignore and frag back into this.
Some of us have issues with the fact that the tanks gun would not work. I have from the start hated the LM tank, and when I got one for a gift, I made the tank from the old SW codex with the auto cannons...which then drifted out, and I was stuck with a worthless tank untill lately. The cannon was to big and silly looking for me to even want to use.
Maybe bolters should be smaller fo IG models. But I can over look that.
It's the fact that an Ork Trukk is a pickup truck, but the size of a tank, and the tank has guns on it that overly large, the tank sits to low, has no place to a motor, has another gun sticking out of it's hull, two more on the sides, and no room for ammo. It's an all or nothing thing, it just adds up after awile.
And people say "play another game" well whe nI play AD&D and we got dragons and people casting spells...no one says anything until the Elf tries to use his arrow to shoot around three trees, and pass into a small crack in the wall of a castle to kill someone...play Starwars, and someone jumps on a bomb...then why even try to make a save...playing Vampire the Rquiem...sure you got a 200 year old vampire, who on the rules doesnt know the first thing about the time frame he came from because you didnt take History..but no one cares about that, until you leap off of 100 story building and hit the ground, and want to roll to soak the damage. It's the little things that keep games rooted in the real world.
Some people *gasp* dont play these games for a chance to show off the new rule they found, and table someone. They play it for the story the game came from. They like to keep to fluff, they like to use what is writen, not "well my army is what would have happened if the Emp of Mankind was really an Ork"

They play it for the story the game came from. They like to keep to fluff, they like to use what is writen

Right... and what is written is that the Leman Russ is one of the most popular tanks the Imperium has ever had, kicks ass from one end of the galaxy to the other, and has problems with neither its gun being too big (pro-tip: in the IoM, your gun can never be too big) nor being too low to the ground.

Again you are complaining about the way guns sit and look in this game...have you ever seen a titan with a CC weapon before?

Its just a game haha, just go with it. from a physics stand point nothing in this game would work.

There is also plenty of space in a LM for an Engine, the entire arse end is where the engine is. The Battle cannon is just a big ass, short barrel howitzer. Who says it works like a conventional gun now? Wjo says it fires ammunition that looks like it was designed today?

Russian Tanks during the Cold war were super cramped, to the point where Soviet Tankers were always 5 ft 8 or shorter because bigger guys wouldn't fit.

On the subject of realism, it's really down to the word "FANTASY", to play fantasy games and complain about a lack of realism is like jumping in the Sea and then Complain ing that the Sea is too Wet.

Well excuse me if I like my ficitonnal word with a tiny bit of sense.

Well of course it has to have some sense, but you cant be to nit picky about it. When ever I get into a sifi story be it aliens star wars, star trek or what ever. the first thing i throw out the window is any notion that physics even exists, its the best thing to do.

Seb wrote:I really do not care about that.
You can imagine chimera having a badass engine, pushing the thing through whatever.
You can imagine that the LRBT cannon shells have especially compact casing.

One thing I am not that happy about though, is the fact that the warp portal generator in every rhino is very well hidden.
Yeah, warp portal. How else could you put 10 MARINES AND ALL THEIR GEAR in this tiny shoecase with tracks.

You can actually. If you took of the bases there should be enough space to fit a few in

RicBlasko wrote:It's not just the "ground clearance" and I am sure we all agree that scall is not the issue, which people seem to ignore and frag back into this.
Some of us have issues with the fact that the tanks gun would not work. I have from the start hated the LM tank, and when I got one for a gift, I made the tank from the old SW codex with the auto cannons...which then drifted out, and I was stuck with a worthless tank untill lately. The cannon was to big and silly looking for me to even want to use.
Maybe bolters should be smaller fo IG models. But I can over look that.
It's the fact that an Ork Trukk is a pickup truck, but the size of a tank, and the tank has guns on it that overly large, the tank sits to low, has no place to a motor, has another gun sticking out of it's hull, two more on the sides, and no room for ammo. It's an all or nothing thing, it just adds up after awile.
And people say "play another game" well whe nI play AD&D and we got dragons and people casting spells...no one says anything until the Elf tries to use his arrow to shoot around three trees, and pass into a small crack in the wall of a castle to kill someone...play Starwars, and someone jumps on a bomb...then why even try to make a save...playing Vampire the Rquiem...sure you got a 200 year old vampire, who on the rules doesnt know the first thing about the time frame he came from because you didnt take History..but no one cares about that, until you leap off of 100 story building and hit the ground, and want to roll to soak the damage. It's the little things that keep games rooted in the real world.
Some people *gasp* dont play these games for a chance to show off the new rule they found, and table someone. They play it for the story the game came from. They like to keep to fluff, they like to use what is writen, not "well my army is what would have happened if the Emp of Mankind was really an Ork"

Ork vehicles don't need engines. They work because the ork's want them too.

From what I read, Ork vehicle work better when driven by Orks, but anyone can man them.

Bobthehero wrote:From what I read, Ork vehicle work better when driven by Orks, but anyone can man them.

It depends on the piece of ork equiptment. The codex doesn't specify which peices work for who, mearly stating that ork weapons are more efficiant in the hands of an ork, and many pieces of ork equiptment captured by imperial forces fails to work at all when used by something besides an ork. The only weapon specifically stated to only work when held by an ork is the SAG, but i'm sure there are plenty of others. Can't say anything about ork vehicles.

Fun Fact: If the specs for the Land Raider from the Lexicanum (which are canon) are correct, a minigun would chew through one in seconds (especially because its fueltank, engine, and treads are exposed, and it has no angling).

chrisrawr wrote:Fun Fact: If the specs for the Land Raider from the Lexicanum (which are canon) are correct, a minigun would chew through one in seconds (especially because its fueltank, engine, and treads are exposed, and it has no angling).

Oh really? I was unaware we knew enough about the properties of ceramite, plasteel and adamantium to understand how various weapons would effect them.

Kaldor wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:Fun Fact: If the specs for the Land Raider from the Lexicanum (which are canon) are correct, a minigun would chew through one in seconds (especially because its fueltank, engine, and treads are exposed, and it has no angling).

Oh really? I was unaware we knew enough about the properties of ceramite, plasteel and adamantium to understand how various weapons would effect them.

IIRC cermaite is just a special type of ceramic plate, and we currently put a type ceramic armor know as Chobham( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobham_armor) in the M1A2 Arbams. Several other countries have a similar armor system in their modern main battle tanks.

Kaldor wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:Fun Fact: If the specs for the Land Raider from the Lexicanum (which are canon) are correct, a minigun would chew through one in seconds (especially because its fueltank, engine, and treads are exposed, and it has no angling).

Oh really? I was unaware we knew enough about the properties of ceramite, plasteel and adamantium to understand how various weapons would effect them.

It lists a 365mm steel equivalent comparison. This is canon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GamzaTheChaos wrote:

treads severely exposed, side armour has no angling. This thing is asking to be hit by an RPG.

chrisrawr wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:Fun Fact: If the specs for the Land Raider from the Lexicanum (which are canon) are correct, a minigun would chew through one in seconds (especially because its fueltank, engine, and treads are exposed, and it has no angling).

Oh really? I was unaware we knew enough about the properties of ceramite, plasteel and adamantium to understand how various weapons would effect them.

It lists a 365mm steel equivalent comparison. This is canon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GamzaTheChaos wrote:

treads severely exposed, side armour has no angling. This thing is asking to be hit by an RPG.

Its called an M113, they were designed in the late 50s IIRC. They weren't designed with RPGs in mind.

chrisrawr wrote:

treads severely exposed, side armour has no angling. This thing is asking to be hit by an RPG.

Well, it's a good thing the Rhino wasn't partially influenced by any real fighting ve-



...Oh.

Well, that's just one ca-



...Ah.

Well then there you go. A tank not designed with antitank weaponry in mind is like sunscreen not designed with the sun in mind.

edit in response to above: And then if you look at modern tanks, with actual physical and simulation-assisted engineering put into them...





Massively angled, much lower tread profile, much less open tread... I understand entirely that the Rhino and Land Raider are used for transporting shock troopers - I also understand entirely that with the canon stats we have for them, some hillbillies with dynamite would have no problem making sure they ran over something that gave them a case of exploded.

chrisrawr wrote:Well then there you go. A tank not designed with antitank weaponry in mind is like sunscreen not designed with the sun in mind.

Its not a tank. Its an APC, it isn't designed to for direct combat. Its designed to transport troops. If you want an IFV, or an MBT then go look at the Bradly or the Abrams respectively.

chrisrawr wrote:It lists a 365mm steel equivalent comparison. This is canon.

Firstly, Lexicanum is not canon. Some of the sources it draws from are cannon. No source is given for your 365mm steel comparison.

Further, how is that 365mm steel comparison intended? Pure kinetic resistance? Resistance to melta weaponry? Las weaponry?

Adamantium is noted (again, in the NON-canon Lexicanum) as being "impenetrable to most commonplace weapons". And we know nothing about the properties of ceramite or plasteel.

I think the OP is really just trying to show off how much he knows about the physics in tank design.

Leigen_Zero wrote:I think I would agree with the two above posts.

You are talking about a game with space elves, half animal-half plant warrior aliens who can make guns work by their collective psychic presence, Genetically engineered super-human warriors and alien robots armed with tesla coils, and you're worried about the fact that the unrealistic shape of the tanks.

Sci-fi mini games sell minis by 'rule of cool', it's more important that the Russ/Chimera look bad-ass than look like they would actually work.

However, that's not to say that if you so choose, you can model your tanks to be as feasibly realistic as you like, so long as they are about the same height, width and depth as a Russ/Chimera your opponents aren't really going to complain.

Mass Effect had aliens and space magic, and managed to promote realism and a sense that this could happen, even going so far as to explain how the stuff would work. Stargate had aliens, space ships, hyperspace, alien symbiotes, and ethereal beings that had ascended into another plane of existence, yet they managed to make it all believable. Lords of the Rings was purely a fantasy, yet somehow it was believable.

The point is that what you said is dumb. The setting makes those aliens work, it allows them to believable, like they could actually exist in the 40k galaxy. They don't feel contrived or out of place. The stupid a hell tank designs, however, do. The terrible science also does. At least Stargate, Mass Effect, and JRR Tolkien did their damn homework before throwing half-baked fluff into the wind. It is also extremely difficult to find the chimera or Leman Russ badass when you realize the designs are terrible. In every way. Nothing about them is good.

Anyone who tries to cover GWs stupid fluff or vehicle designs (not all of them are dumb, but the human ones that we can actually compare real-life stuff to and know exactly why they don't work) by saying that "its just a game with space elves and psychic plant people" needs to realize that every single sci-fi or fantasy universe has something dumb in it. Pointing out that one of the many thousands of sci-fi universes has something dumb in it does not add anything to any conversation, unless you're having a conversation about dumb things in sci-fi universes.

A rant like this over a science fiction game is rather amusing.
I feel like the chimera is one of the most likely vehicles in the 40k universe, but i agree that the leman russ and all of the sponson mounted weapons in 40k are rediculous. thats why you dont see that kind of stuff on modern tanks anymore. But taken from the almost steam punk esque era of WW1 tanks, they are fantastic.

BrotherVord wrote:As far as scale goes, IG models are almost the exact same size as Space Marines, who are supposed to tower over normal men, observe:

With this in mind, if you were to keep the IG model the same you would need to increase the size of the SM considerably, and then increase the size of the Rhino by about 30% or so, the Land Raider would also need a size increase of around 20% (rough numbers, obviously)

Actually the Chimera is a bit bigger then the Rhino, so they'd both have to get bigger, or stay the same size.


Chimera Rhino
Weight: 38 tonnes Weight: 30.0 tonnes
Length: 6.90m Length: 6.6m
Width: 5.70m Width: 4.5m
Height: 3.72m Height: 3.6m

Which always made me think why the Space Marines use the smaller, less armored Rhino. The Chimera is better in almost every way.

People aren't realising what the Rhino, Chimera, Land Raider and Leman Russ were designed for.

No, I don't mean "They're converted tractors" or "We wanted them to look a bit WWI-ish"

They were designed by people who knew what a tank looked like from photos, but not necessarily how it worked.
They designed it in the 1980s/1990s, when plastic model technology was nowhere near as good as it is now and they wanted the thing to fit on as few sprues as possible.
They designed it to have few bits, and covered the road wheels, return rollers and drive wheels with a big 'ol chunk of armour plate. Or they originally designed it for 1/300 scale, where putting such details on a metal cast would be awkward.
They designed them to be in scale with human models that aren't in scale. Everything in 40k is too fat and chunky. This means that even if the tanks aren't too long, they're certainly too wide.

If they were to design a Leman Russ now, for instance, they'd produce something substantially more "forge-world-y", with bits that look like they might actually work. But then it wouldn't look like a Leman Russ.

Maybe they'll eventually produce "alternate forge world track units", with more ground clearance or bigger turret rings. Who knows?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an example, look at the tracks on the much newer (and in background less advanced) Ork battlewagon. Those might actually work.

Simple answer to the ammo storage problem.... they teleport the ammo straight into the gun from the armoury allllllll the way back behind the front lines.... (yeah I know the logistics of this are actually worse but you get what I mean right) and those aren't tracks they are living organisms called sracks that sprout millions of tiny legs when bogged down in mud and 'swim' through it... lol

But seriously it's the 41st millenium, technology is sooooo much more advanced who knows what wonderful contraptions they have designed to fulfill these roles

I do actually felt a little sarcastic when I said that...

CuddlySquig wrote:I think the OP is really just trying to show off how much he knows about the physics in tank design.

I think your just trying to post something, anything , just as long as your involved.

chrisrawr wrote:Massively angled, much lower tread profile, much less open tread... I understand entirely that the Rhino and Land Raider are used for transporting shock troopers - I also understand entirely that with the canon stats we have for them, some hillbillies with dynamite would have no problem making sure they ran over something that gave them a case of exploded.

Massively angled front hull and turret, yes - the sides are just as flat on those as on the GW tanks. There's probably a good reason for it, such as designers needing to keep the things within certain size limits for transporting and entering built-up areas. We also keep forgetting that actual tanks are designed to work with infantry support covering their flanks. Just as you try to do in the game itself seeing how most tanks have crappier side/rear armor.