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If anything the Chimera is better designed then the MkV

As for the LRBT it seems to be based like the WW2 KV series, loads of armor and the over track that they have assist with vehical climb (aka trenches overly large hills ext) . The primary gun on a LRBT had huge muzzle break and that will counter blast so in the end they look fine

Ciaphas wrote:

Seb wrote:I really do not care about that.
You can imagine chimera having a badass engine, pushing the thing through whatever.
You can imagine that the LRBT cannon shells have especially compact casing.

One thing I am not that happy about though, is the fact that the warp portal generator in every rhino is very well hidden.
Yeah, warp portal. How else could you put 10 MARINES AND ALL THEIR GEAR in this tiny shoecase with tracks.

No engine in the world can push a grounded vehicle through the ground!!! Warp portal is spot on. Really frustrating. Rhinos should be bigger the marines don't even fit in the hatch. Lol.

How would it sink? We have so little knowledge on the stats that there is no way we could calculate say the ground pressure of a chimera.

I don't get it.

If you want realistic Tank Models... get them here.

If you want a game with it.. get them here.

The market for this stuff is huge, compared even to GW. GW happens to hog the "cinematic" niche where people punch Tanks to death and where 5 guys with automatic guns will never ever beat the "mean-guy-with-the-cool-scar-and-his-custom-knife".

It's what they do. They do it well. Why should GW try to twist itself into a "realistic" model-kit provider when there's already so many out there?

The Mad Tanker wrote:

Ciaphas wrote:One of the worst examples is the IG Chimera. If it were real it would become immovable once it had sunk 2 inches into to the ground. Even WW1 tanks were better designed.

Same side profile as Chimera and Leman Russ, still managed to cross No Man's Land.

The great war Big Willie Male tank was awesome for its time. Good ground clearance and its overlaid tracks are wider than its side armour so no grounding issues. Oh and its size for a crew of ten. Its as close to a Chimera and a Russ as polished turd is to the crown jewels.....

Still I get what some of you are saying. I will build my own variations then we will all be happy. Thx for the comments incedently this one was captured by the Germans.

Ciaphas wrote:
The great war Big Willie Male tank was awesome for its time. Good ground clearance and its overlaid tracks are wider than its side armour so no grounding issues. Oh and its size for a crew of ten. Its as close to a Chimera and a Russ as polished turd is to the crown jewels.....

Stick a turret on that and It's Leman Russ. And it is about same size than imperial tanks. Imperial tanks are just slightly shorter and wider.

For the sake of argument, let's say for a second that GW decided to make all the tanks to scale with the minis. All if vehicles in 40k would be so large that they would be cumbersome to use.

Further, if they made tanks as tough as they are in the real world NO ONE would take anything but mech lists. It would be like 5th ed. x12.

Talking about realism, what about tanks that can only shoot a few hundred feet when tanks today can reliably hit targets miles away?

Some of what GW did was make the game playable without a TT that was several hundred (or thousand) square feet.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
As long as we are talking about scales that would suck for the TT. I'll take one of these though... At least this was a tank that was designed for the real world.

UrgThraka wrote:For the sake of argument, let's say for a second that GW decided to make all the tanks to scale with the minis. All if vehicles in 40k would be so large that they would be cumbersome to use.

I think they're scaled with the minis. Leman Russ is about seven metres long, about 4 and half tall and almost five metres wide. It's by no means a small tank*. In fact, Chimera is huge, and this makes LR look small. With over seven metres of length Chimera is way bigger than most real APCs.

* (I still enlarged mine to make it look more imposing next to the Chimera.)

UrgThraka wrote:For the sake of argument, let's say for a second that GW decided to make all the tanks to scale with the minis. All if vehicles in 40k would be so large that they would be cumbersome to use.

Further, if they made tanks as tough as they are in the real world NO ONE would take anything but mech lists. It would be like 5th ed. x12.

Talking about realism, what about tanks that can only shoot a few hundred feet when tanks today can reliably hit targets miles away?

Some of what GW did was make the game playable without a TT that was several hundred (or thousand) square feet.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
As long as we are talking about scales that would suck for the TT. I'll take one of these though... At least this was a tank that was designed for the real world.
[/quote
That's more like it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crimson wrote:

UrgThraka wrote:For the sake of argument, let's say for a second that GW decided to make all the tanks to scale with the minis. All if vehicles in 40k would be so large that they would be cumbersome to use.

I think they're scaled with the minis. Leman Russ is about seven metres long, about 4 and half tall and almost five metres wide. It's by no means a small tank*. In fact, Chimera is huge, and this makes LR look small. With over seven metres of length Chimera is way bigger than most real APCs.

* (I still enlarged mine to make it look more imposing next to the Chimera.)

I think you've got metres and feet mixed up. Lol. Don't do any DIY

I think Zweischneid has it right. There is no shortage of third party suppliers or alternative games with realistic vehicles, designed around and for the realistic military market. Personally, I dig more on the cinematic angle. Once you set the game in a science fiction setting, realism kind of goes out the window, and as long as something vaguely conforms to accepted rules (Imperial tanks all look vaguely tank-y) then I am willing to shrug and say "sure, why not?"

Ciaphas wrote:
I think you've got metres and feet mixed up. Lol. Don't do any DIY

Lets assume 30mm IG soldier is about 6 feet tall in real life. This gives us 1 inch = five feet. Chimera is about 12 cm or 4,7 inches long. So 'real' Chimera is about 23 and half feet long. That's about 7,2 metres.

Crimson wrote:

Ciaphas wrote:
I think you've got metres and feet mixed up. Lol. Don't do any DIY

Lets assume 30mm IG soldier is about 6 feet tall in real life. This gives us 1 inch = five feet. Chimera is about 12 cm or 4,7 inches long. So 'real' Chimera is about 23 and half feet long. That's about 7,2 metres.

They are completely out of scale. If you measure the tank from tip to tip you are correct. Measure a Ferrari from tip to tip and forget volume and angles and you could probably put 10 soldiers in that to. Lol.

Ciaphas wrote:
They are completely out of scale. If you measure the tank from tip to tip you are correct. Measure a Ferrari from tip to tip and forget volume and angles and you could probably put 10 soldiers in that to. Lol.

And you're basing this on what exactly? Are you claiming that those twelve IG soldiers wouldn't fit in the Chimera? It is pretty much a box, there are no angles, and it is much bigger than average real life APC. Those 12 guys can have a pool table with them in there to pass time.

Crimson wrote:

Ciaphas wrote:
They are comple ely out of scale. If you measure the tank from tip to tip you are correct. Measure a Ferrari from tip to tip and forget volume and angles and you could probably put 10 soldiers in that to. Lol.

And you're basing this on what exactly? Are you claiming that those twelve IG soldiers wouldn't fit in the Chimera? It is pretty much a box, there are no angles, and it is much bigger than average real life APC. Those 12 guys can have a pool table with them in there to pass time.

Really ? Where's the engine, driver, gunner, ammo, fuel, the rear of the six guns in the back, the 12 IG and all there kit? Yeah and a pool table.
I've spent a lot of time in a warrior and believe me there wasn't
Not enough room for a cat never mind swing one but im fine with that. Scale was never am ossue with me if you read back tjough the posts it was the look znd feel of the vehicals. its just my personal opinion and like i said ill probably convert my own Nyway. Should be fun.

Another important factor in the out of whack scaling is that it makes it much harder for a player to buy other miniature companies products and use them as counts as in their army withou it looking really out of place. They want their product to be so unique you can't mix and match with others.

Dannyevilguy wrote:Another important factor in the out of whack scaling is that it makes it much harder for a player to buy other miniature companies products and use them as counts as in their army withou it looking really out of place. They want their product to be so unique you can't mix and match with others.

That's spot on. That's why the vehicals are 3/4 scale.

Ciaphas wrote:

Formosa wrote:Chimera unrealistic?

really?

Are you serious?
The chimera has overlaid tracks. The outsider armoured body of the vehicle is almost the same depth as the track. The tank you show has normal running gear and something called ' ground clearance' which means it can sink into.the ground and not ground itself. Something that was fixed in 1915 at the tank trials before actually using tanks in 1918. And would everyone stop saying because its a game and its SCI FI it does not have to be realistic! Listen I'm not trying to change peoples minds or have a go at GW but I was intrested in peoples thoughts as to why the vehicals are so poorly thought out. Not so much the scale issue which I get, but the fact that the physics of the vehicals looks do wrong. And yeas I love the fluff and the realism of the books most of which I've read. The fluff and modelling is to me the best part of the hobby.

The tank shown has exactly the same ground clearance as the chimera.

Tanks were used prior to 1918.

I really don't see what you are getting at.

marielle wrote:

Ciaphas wrote:

Formosa wrote:Chimera unrealistic?

really?

Are you serious?
The chimera has overlaid tracks. The outsider armoured body of the vehicle is almost the same depth as the track. The tank you show has normal running gear and something called ' ground clearance' which means it can sink into.the ground and not ground itself. Something that was fixed in 1915 at the tank trials before actually using tanks in 1918. And would everyone stop saying because its a game and its SCI FI it does not have to be realistic! Listen I'm not trying to change peoples minds or have a go at GW but I was intrested in peoples thoughts as to why the vehicals are so poorly thought out. Not so much the scale issue which I get, but the fact that the physics of the vehicals looks do wrong. And yeas I love the fluff and the realism of the books most of which I've read. The fluff and modelling is to me the best part of the hobby.

The tank shown has exactly the same ground clearance as the chimera.

Tanks were used prior to 1918.

I really don't see what you are getting at.[/quote

Tanks were developed and trialed in 1915. They were rushed into production and a hundred were produced for the battle of the Somme 1916 with disastrous result. Most suffered mechanical failure and many of the ones that made it to the battle quickly bogged down and were abandoned. After extensive reworking the biggest attack with tanks took place at Cambria in 1918 with fantastic results.
The tank shown has much more ground clearance and better angled stomach armour and most importantly its side track armour does not stick out further than the tracks.you like GW s designs I don't. So I'm making my own version. Everyone's happy.

Honestly I think the problem here is you, no offense intended. You seem very into tanks and design and that's great my brother is too. He used to drive them in the military, but your kind being that guy in the science fiction movie theater talking during the movie constantly about how this or that isn't possible or realistic in any way. It's great that you know so much but your ruining the experience for others. He whole point is to suspend belief and enjoy the setting the director/author/game designer gives us. It doesn't make your opinion not valid, but they do make other model games that are as realistic as you want, just not this one.

Your basically walking into a red lobster and asking for a steak. If you wanted a steak why go to a sea food place? Just go to a steak house.

As for the engines, it's 38,000 years into the future. Do you think that scientists would not have created an inline 4 cylinder engine that could be bolted into the space between the top and bottom of the track. A pair of engines the size for a Ford Focus could provide all the power needed to move a 15 ton tracked vehicle about 25 mph or more.

The IoM doesn't have scientists. They have people praying to machines and consider their advanced technology ancient and divine. Science is all but considered heresy.

wowsmash wrote:Honestly I think the problem here is you, no offense intended. You seem very into tanks and design and that's great my brother is too. He used to drive them in the military, but your kind being that guy in the science fiction movie theater talking during the movie constantly about how this or that isn't possible or realistic in any way. It's great that you know so much but your ruining the experience for others. He whole point is to suspend belief and enjoy the setting the director/author/game designer gives us. It doesn't make your opinion not valid, but they do make other model games that are as realistic as you want, just not this one.

Your basically walking into a red lobster and asking for a steak. If you wanted a steak why go to a sea food place? Just go to a steak house.

Excellent lol.
If you actually read my posts you would see that I have been trying to end this argument by constantly saying I see your points of view and I'm going to make my own conversions. Can't say fairer than that. Now why don't you sell steak?

Jidmah wrote:The IoM doesn't have scientists.

Anymore.

Humanity had scientists who were so damn smart they could make machines that could make practically anything out of garbage they had laying around.

The Imperium doesn't have those machines anymore, but they do have the things that the machines built. And those include such things as ludicrously powered engines that take up a fraction of the space we'd imagine they'd need.

UrgThraka wrote:For the sake of argument, let's say for a second that GW decided to make all the tanks to scale with the minis. All if vehicles in 40k would be so large that they would be cumbersome to use.

Further, if they made tanks as tough as they are in the real world NO ONE would take anything but mech lists. It would be like 5th ed. x12.

Talking about realism, what about tanks that can only shoot a few hundred feet when tanks today can reliably hit targets miles away?

1)I gotta disagree about all of the vehicles being to large. For the most part, chimeras, wave serpents, devil fish, raides and necron arks are close enough to not really matter. If you take your infantry models off of their bases, model them to where the arms are not in a dynamic pose and have one of these transport models bui;lt to where you can remove the Top, you will find that they come pretty close to holding their liusted transport capacity,
Now Land Raiders, Rhinos and Ork trukks are out of proportion. Even then, they would fit on the board pretty easily if they were brought in line with the sie of their infantry models.

2)5th ed 40k Tanks were Tougher than what we have in reality. I can't say for 6th ed, just have not had enough games. But in 5th, they were way to strong against the available anti-tank shooting(except melta)

3) Absolutely agree here. The range of shooting weapons is way too far off. Not to say that this could not be somewhat fixed with a tiny fluff blurb. Something like, "In the grim dark future of warfare, vehicle armour has developed to the point that it can only be damaged at close range by the mightest of guns."

wowsmash wrote:Honestly I think the problem here is you, no offense intended. You seem very into tanks and design and that's great my brother is too. He used to drive them in the military, but your kind being that guy in the science fiction movie theater talking during the movie constantly about how this or that isn't possible or realistic in any way. It's great that you know so much but your ruining the experience for others. He whole point is to suspend belief and enjoy the setting the director/author/game designer gives us. It doesn't make your opinion not valid, but they do make other model games that are as realistic as you want, just not this one.

Your basically walking into a red lobster and asking for a steak. If you wanted a steak why go to a sea food place? Just go to a steak house.

Maybe GW is the Problem.

GW wants to "Forge a Narrative" and make the game more "Cinematic".

Thing is that when you are going for such things there is an unforgivable sin called "Suspension of Disbelief" This is where something is so outrageous or out of proportion with the rest of the setting that the audience suddenly becomes intensely aware that they are watching a movie(Or in our case, playing a game with over-priced toys)

IMO, If GW wants to make the game more cinematic then, we the players should hold them to the standard. Also, Its not just the tanks, there are many other problems with the setting.

Things like:

SM's whose thighs are smaller in power armour than their scouts who are not in power armour
Terminators whose head is dislodged from their spine by on a scale basis, would be a good 6-12 inches
Tau Missile pods are S7 AP4 yet the seeker missiles(basically a cruise missile) is only S8 AP3 yet is many times larger and is supposed to be much more powerful.
Gun ranges that in no way match what is seen in our current "low tech" reality.
Infantry that can easily keep up with a vehicle moving flat-out.
Artillery barrage weapons on the front-lines
Individuals riding a motorcycle being good in cc and not suffering a penalty or being on the bike while trying to swing a weapon.
Any model that uses a melta weapon without being fully enclosed in armour.
Flamers not hurting models in open-topped transports
cumbersome game mechanics and rules that force the players to stop("suspend') the "narrative" in order to roll one by one or to look up conflicting rules.

Just to name a few

As I said before, maybe instead of the individual being at fault for expecting higher standards, it is GW's fault for sorta coasting with an its "good enough" attitude while trying to extract a premium price.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Jidmah wrote:The IoM doesn't have scientists.

Anymore.

Humanity had scientists who were so damn smart they could make machines that could make practically anything out of garbage they had laying around.

The Imperium doesn't have those machines anymore, but they do have the things that the machines built. And those include such things as ludicrously powered engines that take up a fraction of the space we'd imagine they'd need.

Yup, and those would not go to the imperial guard, but the space marine chapters first. Judging from the huge exhausts, I doubt that engines like you described exist.

I think it's a good balance myself. The only fix would be to shrink the troops or larger tanks. That causes problems in a gaming standpoint. The standard game board becomes either to small or to large. I still say your being overly picky. I also don't see how it's GW fault, as far as I can tell they have never claimed that all there range is true to scale.

The Mad Tanker wrote:

Ciaphas wrote:One of the worst examples is the IG Chimera. If it were real it would become immovable once it had sunk 2 inches into to the ground. Even WW1 tanks were better designed.

Same side profile as Chimera and Leman Russ, still managed to cross No Man's Land.

The OP is actually correct, you're not. The MK4's tracks are wide enough to cover the part of the chassis it is sitting on. The chimera has tracks which are shorter than that width, meaning as soon as it dug into the ground an inch or so (which a tank will do easily) it would sit there, tracks spinning.

Also, while that is a point in favour of the OP I'd like to mention I don't care anywhere near as much about realism in 40k.

Jidmah wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote: And those include such things as ludicrously powered engines that take up a fraction of the space we'd imagine they'd need.

Yup, and those would not go to the imperial guard, but the space marine chapters first. Judging from the huge exhausts, I doubt that engines like you described exist.

You may want to research the backpack on Space Marine power armour then.

As I keep saying scale is not the issue for me. If I look at something and it looks like it would not work then that's what itlooks like. I believe good gaming and a sense of this could happen go hand in hand. Why should we be expected to put up with poor design. I love games workshop models and concept but some of there vehicals are crap. Tanks that would ground, guns so big that the round would not fit in the turret and if if actually fired the turret would fly off! Its a shame when you see the thought behind a Bane blade to then see the Leman Russ.
Rule of cool is copout for lazy design and for those of you that think I should be in another more realistic setting, why? Because I want better more realistic vehicals? I can understand some people who see s vehical as bad ass, but in all honesty all I see is dumb ass.

To wheel out the rather good explanation for their appearance from WD when Spearhead came out, to show that they're meant to look like that. They are supposed to be an utterly backwards looking design.

...Take the Imperial Guard tanks. In truth they share more in common with a tank from the interwar period of the 20th Century than they do a modern battle tank or anything "futuristic". They have curiously misshapen hulls, riveted armour plates and absolutley no aesthetic concession to the technological advances we have nowadays.
IG tanks don't have the proper sloped armour and that is quite deliberate. Their design spawns from the thought process of what a fundamentally "backwards" tank would look like 38,000 years in the future in a place where technological understanding has collapsed and innovation is outlawed.

The Imperium is archaic and backwards, clinging to the remnants of incredible technologies such as Plasma Cannons and Las weapons. The image is so exciting and unusual because these misunderstood innovations are embedded in fighting vehicles that make a modern tank look like a technical marvel.

So there you have it.