Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Jefffar wrote:The Tau believe they are the Greater Good and try to adhere to those principles. However as those principles are so wildly optimistic the end result looks like Lesser Evil as much as Greater Good.

Soooo ... greater good then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Their idealism is becoming cynicism, and more and more they are beginning to realize that kindness will just put you at a disadvantage.

Do you have some fluff to back this up?

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Their idealism is becoming cynicism, and more and more they are beginning to realize that kindness will just put you at a disadvantage.

Do you have some fluff to back this up?

That whole blurb about Shadowsun is pretty, in my opinion, supportive of this.

For the Tau, the universe is getting darker. They're starting to learn that in order to survive they might need to sacrifice something.

It remains to be seen if they will decide that the cost is acceptable or not.

This a 6ed blurb on shadow sun?

Nope, just the bit in the Tau Empire book.

The Tau are simply in it for the greater good of the Tau.

If anyone else benefits from their "greater good", they're happy with that. If not, then oh well.

Manchu wrote:

Jefffar wrote:The Tau believe they are the Greater Good and try to adhere to those principles. However as those principles are so wildly optimistic the end result looks like Lesser Evil as much as Greater Good.

Soooo ... greater good then.

No, I reject the idea that this is simply a binary system and instead believe that the Tau are both at the same time.

Kanluwen wrote:That whole blurb about Shadowsun is pretty, in my opinion, supportive of this.

Hmm, I don't agree. Shadowsun lost her bonded sisters but carries on because she truly believes in Tau'va. She is the hope in cunterpoint to O'Shovah's despair. Or at least that's what I got from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jefffar wrote:No, I reject the idea that this is simply a binary system and instead believe that the Tau are both at the same time.

It's pretty obvious that you don't. Or more likely you just don't understand the options. The options are that the Tau, as a group, believe either that the Greater Good is sincerely the best way for all beings or that they believe the Greater Good is just good spin for conquering anybody they want to conquer. You said:

The Tau believe they are the Greater Good and try to adhere to those principles.

So ... that's the Greater Good option. I know it's cool be the free thinker who rejects the options given to you in an internet poll but I thought pretty carefully about posing a meaningful difference between the choices and it's really not possible to combine them. Either the Tau are generally benevolent from their own perspective or generally malevolent from their own perspective.

However you are too absolute, it is not a simple yes/no proposition.

In the most idealistic society there are still cynics and the most cynical society there are idealists.

Tau fluff includes both in relatively equal parts. Just look at the three main characters presented in the Tau Codex. Farsight is the cynic who has fallen so far as to even reject the notion of co-operation with other races where as Shadowsword is the idealist who seeks to unite the empire once more behind the banner of the Greater Good. Aun'va is somewhere in between, speaking eloquently on why the Tau should strive to uphold the greater good while at the same time ordering what sounds like a massacre.

Again, the issue is: do you prefer to see the Tau as a mostly sincere and well-meaning faction or a faction like all the others, pursuing a totally racist and violent agenda. It's not about individuals, as I've already stated in this thread (and Farsight isn't even evil; he's just given up hope). It's about each fan's overall take on the Tau. All you are saying is that they are generally good but they sometimes do bad things. That's the Greater Good option in the poll.

I really don't get this poll, there isn't an option I'd like to vote.

For what it's worth I'll just leave my opinion on Tau. I believe that they themselves belief in the "Greater Good" but that the "Greater Good" is twisted and the Ethereals aren't as innocent and well meaning as they appear.

Personally, as I said, I'd have picked a third option: They're in it for the benefit of the Tau, and are willing to take others along for the ride if it benefits the Tau.

That's why it's the Tau empire, not some sort of alliance of unified species. The Tau rule, and everyone else is subordinate to, and in their eyes, inferior to the Tau.

jgehunter wrote:I really don't get this poll, there isn't an option I'd like to vote.

It's pretty simple. The Tau want the galaxy to be a better place for everyone to the greatest extent possible or they just want it to be better for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Personally, as I said, I'd have picked a third option: They're in it for the benefit of the Tau, and are willing to take others along for the ride if it benefits the Tau.

That is explicitly the option labeled "Lesser Evil."

My option isnt here......moar evil, filthy xenos.

Kanluwen wrote:The way I look at the Tau...

Upon their introduction to the galaxy at large, they were a shining beacon of hope and kindness.

Gradually that beacon has been dimmed. Their idealism is becoming cynicism, and more and more they are beginning to realize that kindness will just put you at a disadvantage. They are currently the "Imperium That Could Have Been", while slowly sinking down to the level of the "Imperium That Is".

Agreed, it was betrayal from within that made the Imperium what it is, with a variety of races in the Tau Empire, its likely to happen sooner

Bit of a repost by me from a while ago but I'll put it out there for now and update later on my most current take on them: There is a belief, and I don't neccessarlly subscribe to it myself, that the Tau's existence breaks the suspension of disbelief that all works of fiction require but more specifically the one that 40K requires. The is a mini-Dakka-meme that's overused a lot called GrimDark. You will see somebody ask a question like why does so-and-so do this or why is so-and-so so bad? And you will get the inevitable response "because its GrimDark" which is kinda funny but I don't really like it because it shows a clear reduction in thinking.
40K has created this interesting cycle of violence and suffering that's supposed to parable/parody our own world. Repressive organizations do bad things to people until they rebel by doing even worse things that in turn requires the establishment to crackdown and be even more repressive - and so the never-ending cycle of dystopanism grinds on. That's the very theme of 40K. If the Tau don't require this then why does anyone? It's a potential universe breaking issue. Anyways, as others would put it "Taus bad for GrimDark". "

Like I said I don't neccesarily subscribe to that school of thought now. Well more like I don't subscribe to it after the introduction of the Tau, after them it was no longer "WHO CAN BE THE MOST EVIL" but 'HOW THE HUMANS GONNA DIE NOW" or perhaps more accurately "How will the Imperium fall".

40K is completely human-centric. On the Tabletop IG maybe the only race that can fluff-wise ally with any other faction. Be they representing actual IG, Traitor Guard, genestealer cults, Human allies, Human auxilleries etc. etc. Even the most OTT monolithic super-evil armies have actual human troops! Genestealers and Pariahs. 40K is the tale of the humans

If there's one thing that all the fluff constantly reinforces its that The Imperium is held together by prayers and Duct Tape. Whether its enternal implosion or external invasion a dozen possible empire-killing things happen every week.

So what's my point here? That the Tau represent a truly unique threat to The Imperium . The threat of liberty

When ever there is a poll to see who is the biggest threat to The Imperium the Tau often finish in the bottom 2. However, The Tau took over 20 worlds in a day without firing a shot. How many of the other races can say that? Giant slobbering monsters of doom is just par for the course for The Imperium. Although each one may be more monsterous an slobbering than the last the Imperium is a war-machine and knows how to deal with that. But the threat of a better "Quality of Life"? How will The Imperium survive that?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Tau took over 20 worlds in a day without firing a shot. How many of the other races can say that?

That should be a truly sobering thought to the masters of the Imperium ... if their brains could even conceive of it! "Mind control -- it has to be mind control," the Inquisitors cry. I agree, KC ... the Tau are a much bigger threat than they're given credit for and it's not because they're secretly evil.

Of course it's "Greater Good". That's like asking if SMs do something "For The Emperor"..
But seriously, I go for the first option. It's much more interesting that way.
The setting is overcrowded with lesser and greater evils. One factions of naive, good guys is a needed contrast.

Lesser evil. Tau do work for the greater good- but only the greater good of their species. Tau care some about general welfare, but not as much as they should- also, the system where Tau ethereals have unquestionable domination over all other Tau makes Tau society essentially a sub-tyrannical monarchy.

well, they got everyone in same level, but that you can say that is more racism than their goal.in theory the should be the same.in action they arent because of the fear that the new-comers are traitors.so it takes time ( and heroes) to be in same level as Tau

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:Personally, as I said, I'd have picked a third option: They're in it for the benefit of the Tau, and are willing to take others along for the ride if it benefits the Tau.

That is explicitly the option labeled "Lesser Evil."

No it's not. "Lesser Evil" indicates something else entirely than "greater good, but only for the Tau".

Melissia wrote:No it's not. "Lesser Evil" indicates something else entirely than "greater good, but only for the Tau".

No, read it again.

Manchu wrote:This "Greater Good" refers to the best possible social arrangement for the Tau and most especially the Ethereal caste. Benefits to other races are secondary.

Now here's what you wrote:

Melissia wrote:They're in it for the benefit of the Tau, and are willing to take others along for the ride if it benefits the Tau.

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:No it's not. "Lesser Evil" indicates something else entirely than "greater good, but only for the Tau".

No, read it again.

Manchu wrote:This "Greater Good" refers to the best possible social arrangement for the Tau and most especially the Ethereal caste. Benefits to other races are secondary.

Now here's what you wrote:

Melissia wrote:They're in it for the benefit of the Tau, and are willing to take others along for the ride if it benefits the Tau.

I'm aware of what you described it as.

But you're wrong

Melissia wrote:But you're wrong

No, Melissia. What you said is an only slightly re-worded version of one of the poll options. We have the words themselves and can compare them. Stubbornness doesn't change that. The only explanation is that you did not mean what you posted.

well i think i understand what Melissia says :
fist of all , tau havent got comunism. neither the caste system is 100% like castes in India ect. casted are based upon that type of tau you are.so they cant change because of their DNA, not because the system.Also, as it writes on Codex, tau try to put the spieces in these casted based on their biology.They "do recuits" in their species , not in their Empire.In other words, they want every one to be tau, and believe that they are the chosen to rule. so until do something that proves that you are a tau( for ex. one Heroic act or a discovery) you are just a "guest" and not a "meber" of tau.

That's not a bad insight but I don't think it gets to Melissia's point, which was that the Tau place themselves first and everyone else a very distant second (if at all). What you're saying seems more like the "Greater Good" option although I don't think your point specifically addresses the question posed here.

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:But you're wrong

No, Melissia. What you said is an only slightly re-worded version of one of the poll options. We have the words themselves and can compare them. Stubbornness doesn't change that. The only explanation is that you did not mean what you posted.

For a true Sororitas fan, faith overrides reason and facts are for the weak

While you're here, how do you think the poll is coming along? Greater Good has overtaken Lesser Evil -- not what I would have expected.

yes, neither i.... i thought that lesser evil would lose for a small amount of votes (0-5) , not so big

but its not ended yet

Neither poll option really reflects my view on Tau. I do think that they're mostly genuinely well meaning in the sense that they believe that the Greater Good and the integration to the Tau Empire benefits the alien races they ally with. However, many 19th century imperialists had similar views about the 'natives' and the western way of life, and that often did not end that well for the said natives. So it is not that the Tau are evil and selfish, merely naive and arrogant. They think that they know what is best for the others, even though they themselves actually are clueless newcomers.

Okay, so that's another vote for Greater Good.