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Manchu wrote:Okay, so that's another vote for Greater Good.

In a way. I just don't think that the Greater Good is necessarily good at all.

I see it as cultural imperialism that forces everyone to conform to this idealised model, stripping away their individuality, and in the case of the aliens, their culture.

Sure, sure -- but the thread isn't about whether you personally agree with the Tau. Just whether you think they are motivated by what, for them, are noble intentions or cynical ones.

I voted for "Greater Good" but there is no middle ground in this poll.

The Tau are mostly "Good" IMO except for a few things:
-As the tau were probably created by an elder race to fight chaos, they are not "free" as they would believe themselves.
-The Etherials mind control the Tau, no objection has EVER been made to their rule, its just lucky that their (somewhat naive) vision of the galaxy is largely beneficial to the majority.
-Due to the Etherial mind control, no Tau ever has freedom in their way of life, even though they do not know it they are all secret slaves.
-The Etherials way of government (the cast system) although beneficial to the majority, essentially destroys all individuality and personal freedom. The Ethereals probably know about and regret this, but in their ayes it is far better than the return of the dreaded "Mon'tau".
-If the Etherials were truly benevolent they would not force other races to exist under THEIR rule, they would instead form a multi-species council. This (apart from the imperiums deep Xenophobia) is the reason the Tau will never find peace with the majority of humanity.
-Due to the Tau's relatively recent expansion, they know very little of the threat of chaos. If the Tau ever start to become phychicly able, their entire ethos is guaranteed to change.

Honestly, there is no meaningful "middle answer" to this question. Either you prefer Tau to be (mostly) good guys or Tau to be (mostly) bad guys.

I'm not that well read on the Tau but I would prefer them to be more morally ambiguous, darker, slightly more evil if you will.

Kanluwen wrote:
For the Tau, the universe is getting darker. They're starting to learn that in order to survive they might need to sacrifice something.

It remains to be seen if they will decide that the cost is acceptable or not.

This does sound really interesting and I personally hope that they explore this a bit more in the fluff.

Manchu wrote:Sure, sure -- but the thread isn't about whether you personally agree with the Tau. Just whether you think they are motivated by what, for them, are noble intentions or cynical ones.

I am sure that to Imperium exterminating all aliens is a noble and just cause, but this does not mean they are not horrible bigoted asshats.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:Honestly, there is no meaningful "middle answer" to this question. Either you prefer Tau to be (mostly) good guys or Tau to be (mostly) bad guys.

You place too much emphasis on intention. There are plenty of horrible attrocities that have been committed with what to the perpetrator were noble intentions.


If the crux of the thread is whether I prefer the Tau to be 'good guys,' then no, I don't. Sure, in many ways they're better than the Imperium, but that is not a terribly high bar to reach.

To quote the dude, "Well that's like, your opinion man." I think there could be lots of room for interpretation.

Both brightsword and farsight are arguments against mind control, as farsight, you think, would have been brought back in by mind control (unless he is being "brain controlled"!) And brightsword was assassinated.

I don't see why the etherals are "bad/evil" for governing their particular way that we know very little about.

Manchu, stop trying to force everyone's views to match two arbitrary definitions.

It just makes you look a bit arrogant. Like asking someone "do you support abortion yes/no", and they say "no but" and without paying any further attention to them, you declare "okay you're a Republican then."

Melissia wrote:Manchu, stop trying to force everyone's views to match two arbitrary definitions.

It just makes you look a bit arrogant. Like asking someone "do you support abortion yes/no", and they say "no but" and without paying any further attention to them, you declare "okay you're a Republican then."

Doesn't seem that Manchu is trying to force anything. Rather that the op is exercising the perogative to keep the poll/ thread on the track that was intended.

I can see that the op's actions/posts could be seen as restrictive to the conversation,
on the other hand, it could be that the poll is Manchus primary reason for the thread and that as such, does not want conversation to sway the vote.

Melissia wrote:Manchu, stop trying to force everyone's views to match two arbitrary definitions.

As far as your view goes, it matched one of my poll options explicitly. Stop being cranky that you're not a special snowflake in this case. It just makes you look pigheaded.

The poll options are actually not arbitrary at all. As I mentioned in the OP, they are the two reasonable interpretations: Tau are either sincere about pursuing the good of all or they are just using that rhetoric to promote their own power. There is no third option in a question about how one views the faction along those lines in general terms.

focusedfire wrote:it could be that the poll is Manchus primary reason for the thread and that as such, does not want conversation to sway the vote.

Yes, that's sort of the issue. People are telling me there are other options here -- because that is what people always do in poll threads -- but when they actually spell it out, it turns out to be either one of the existing options or something that doesn't even address the poll. For example, the issue of "mind control" itself is immaterial. The Tau could be mind controlling Vespids, or whoever else, for two different reasons, generally: (1) to make them serve the Tau race or (2) to make them serve their own good, which they are unable to recognize by themselves. So whether the Tau are employing mind control at all doesn't really matter as to the question at hand.

You can see in Crimson's post how he misses the point here by saying controlling someone else for their own good is really bad -- as in the case of IRL imperialism. Maybe so, but that is not the question asked by the poll. The poll only wants to know whether the Tau program is genuinely intended to benefit all member species or just the Tau race itself, especially the Ethereal class. Imperialism may be bad in and of itself for a number of reasons, mostly in terms of consequences, but some imperialists act out of an authentic desire to improve others and not just themselves. Other imperialists only care about enslaving others to their agenda. That's the question here.

I've always seen the Tau as more like a young United States; they're a highly dynamic, optimistic society that, while certainly commiting their fair share of atrocities, are truly striving towards a more free society. In the same vein, whilst the ethereals are certainly in control right now, I doubt their grip will last, much like the Founding Fathers, and as the empire grows and the "allied" races continue to multiply alongside the tau, power struggles and other interests could lead to a civil war, which would reveal the true intentions of the tau.

Until then, however, I see the tau as honestly striving towards the Greater Good, not just for themselves but for their allies as well; even the Ethereals, who may seem despotic, but aren't taking advantage of their positions for personal gain.

That is a fantastic analogy, I think. The word for it is "exceptionalism." We've been talking about stupid, irrelevant phrases like "communism" and "utilitarianism" for too long. The Tau are first and foremost exceptionalists.

Manchu wrote:
You can see in Crimson's post how he misses the point here by saying controlling someone else for their own good is really bad -- as in the case of IRL imperialism. Maybe so, but that is not the question asked by the poll. The poll only wants to know whether the Tau program is genuinely intended to benefit all member species or just the Tau race itself, especially the Ethereal class. Imperialism may be bad in and of itself for a number of reasons, mostly in terms of consequences, but some imperialists act out of an authentic desire to improve others and not just themselves. Other imperialists only care about enslaving others to their agenda. That's the question here.

Why you equate the sincere motivations with being 'good guys?' The poll doesn't but say that, so there's nothing wrong with that, but you later said that this was the main crux of the question. So do you want to ask whether Tau have sincere motivations, or whether we prefer them to be 'good guys?' Because those are two different questions.

Because they are the same question for the purpose of this particular fictional universe.

Manchu wrote:Because they are the same question for the purpose of this particular fictional universe.

In your head, maybe, but not really. Does sincerely believing that all xenos must die make the Imperium of Man good guys? Does sincerely believing that being engulfed by the Chaos is the best thing that can happen to the galaxy make the Chaos Marines good guys? I do not get why you mix the whole good/bad guy thing in this. It muddles your original question from which it doesn't logically follow.

CSM don't believe that Chaos engulfing the galaxy is what's best for the galaxy. They think it's what the galaxy deserves.

The Imperium doesn't kill xenos ought of "good intentions." They kill xenos out of hatred and the morally neutral will to survival.

If you believe that the Tau genuinely seek to improve the lot of all races that accept the Greater Good then they are the good guys of 40k, possibly along with the Eldar.

If it helps you to keep the issues separate in your head, then please do so.

Eldar are good guys? You mean those arrogant pointy-ear supremacist who care about nothing but themselves and would gladly exterminate anyone who gets in their way had they resources to do so! (Yes, I do love them.)

I do not get what trying to force this good/bad guy dicothomy on 40K will accomplish. I sincerely believe that if anyone starts to look like the good guys in 40K, then someone is doing it wrong. There should not be good guys in 40K.

The Tau have an ideology which they temselves believe to be good (as do pretty much any supposter of any ideology ever, regardless of how horrible that ideology actually is), and because they believe it to be good, they'll push this ideology to everyone. This does not make them good guys in any reasonable sense.

Crimson wrote:This does not make them good guys in any reasonable sense.

The idea that the Tau actually care about the welfare of other races makes them stand out as good guys relative to every other race -- except, as I said, possibly the Eldar who may or may not care about the galaxy as a whole in addition to primarily wanting to preserve their own species.

Manchu wrote:That is a fantastic analogy, I think. The word for it is "exceptionalism." We've been talking about stupid, irrelevant phrases like "communism" and "utilitarianism" for too long. The Tau are first and foremost exceptionalists.

Tau got socialism , nothing else
they havent exceptionalism. i can say that Imperioum or Chaos ( in place were they havent anarchy) have exceptionalism more than tau. they believe that they are doing is the only way to save themselves ( and the other spicies that they will agree)

I'm really referring to American exceptionalism, the idea that the United States has a unique duty to spread its idealism to every other nation.

yes , that i was meanig
also remeber what IoM believe.and Chaos too
Tau let in the empire aliens that they do not fight for the Greater Good , maybe let them believe whatever they want. but they got penalties ( for ex. live like cave-man or use sterilization if they become many)

Neither the Imperium nor Chaos are spreading their ideology in the sense of the Tau so I am confused as to what you mean.

And which allies of the Tau do not share the ideal of the Greater Good? By being a member of the Tau Empire, one subscribes to that doctrine. The Kroot may not go on about it like the Tau but they obviously agree to it since they are partners with the Tau.

IoM says : kill the heretics ( them who dont believe in its ideologi)

Chaos : there are only 4 Gods and a false Emperor.Acept it and join us or die

Tau :join us or get destroyed.but you can just surunder

and :

Manchu wrote:
And which allies of the Tau do not share the ideal of the Greater Good? By being a member of the Tau Empire, one subscribes to that doctrine. The Kroot may not go on about it like the Tau but they obviously agree to it since they are partners with the Tau.

humans that live in conquerd hive cities of Tau for exaple.they only suffer propaganda.
but in general Tau say : "We will respect ur beliefs , if you only see reason." Not respect donent means vanish,just some penalties . in Ameria Indians died bs of the diference

I do think the Tau, most of them at least, believe in this Greater Good and try to act in accordance with it. They defend themself ferociously but will allow defeated opponents to surrender or withdraw instead of annihilating them. They prefer to try negotiations first if there's something they want. Conquered races are second-class citizens but at least they're alive and can go on with their business in support of the Tau.

No one can say if the real leaders actually believe but as long as they're acting the part who cares? Time might come when some leader goes against the Greater Good and finds he's having a hard time convincing his underlings that he's right.

@Pada: I don't think Tau are really content to let other races live according to their own ethics -- at least not forever. If the Tau hesitate, it is only for practical reasons.

Pada wrote:Tau :join us or get destroyed.but you can just surunder

Have you ever read about Kroot and how they met Tau and finally joined the Tau Empire (and how Anghkor Prok became a general in the tau army)?
Funny how the best documented example doesn't fit at all your statement. Do you really think that ultra-pragmatic Kroot are slaves to Tau pheromones or propaganda and licking their boots?

Guess who is the victim of propaganda now?

I think the Tau have met other races besides the Kroot.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think the Tau have met other races besides the Kroot.

Like the Vespid? The insect things that the Tau control with their pheremones?...

Wait... which thred am I in again?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think the Tau have met other races besides the Kroot.

"The tau subjugate all races they meet."
"But the designer notes say the contrary."
"Erm, but every race they meet is subjugated."
"Kroot aren't. Tau help them altruistically to not get extinct, fighting a hard 10 years war without asking for anything. Later the Kroot are grateful for that. One even becomes a general in the Tau army."
"Erm, but every other race is subjugated"
"But Vespids join the Empire voluntarily and are valued as equals in the army. And Demiurg are just allies"
"But ... but ... here a race I just made up that is totally subjugated."
"Yeah, right!"

DeffDred wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think the Tau have met other races besides the Kroot.

Like the Vespid? The insect things that the Tau control with their pheremones?...
Wait... which thred am I in again?

Well, not the "adjust your tinfoil head and misquote even existing conspiracy theories to show your lack of competence in the discussion" thread (hint: it is not pheromones)

The average Tau worker believes in the Greater Good because they are thoroughly brainwashed and socially conditioned from birth to believe in it.

The Ethereals, and probably Tau dissenters like Farsight, know that the Greater Good is a sham. It's pervasive propaganda designed to create an unshakeable national identity which justifies anything and everything the Tau do in its name. While the average Tau is probably basically good, the Tau Empire is an aggressively expansionist entity that cares not whether those it is attempting to expand onto want them there or not, and the Empire will resort to any any all tactics to achieve their aims.

The Tau Empire combines the social model of Huxley's Brave New World with the kind of hyper-nationalism the pre-WW2 Nazi party used to galvanize the German population. This creates a system where only the very top level even knows that it is a system. The highest members of the elemental castes still fully believe in the system because they too have been conditioned since birth.