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Generally speaking, there are two reasonable interpretations of the Tau fluff:

Greater Good

Tau culture is naive, optimistic, brave, and noble. The Tau seek to create a society where all races can participate in the creation and preservation of prosperity and dignity for all. For the Tau, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts: when races work together, they can achieve a good that is impossible for them to even imagine individually. This "Greater Good" refers to the best possible social arrangement for all sentient species.

Lesser Evil

Tau culture is cynical, imperialistic, oppressive, and demeaning -- just not to the degree that the Imperium is any of those things. Whereas mankind has decided that no other race may exist, the Tau have a slightly more moderate view: no other race may exist except that it submits to the Tau. This "Greater Good" refers to the best possible social arrangement for the Tau and most especially the Ethereal caste. Benefits to other races are secondary.

Which do you prefer and why?

Well... Seeing as this is 40k, and there are no good guys, I'll chalk the greater good bit up to rhetoric and say the Tau are just a little bit nicer than everyone else... As long as you do what they say

Also, maybe belongs in 40k Background of General? IDK XD

LordofHats wrote:maybe belongs in 40k Background

LOL that's where I thought I was! Thanks.

So, yeah -- you could think of this poll in those terms: is the Greater Good mentality just propaganda for something sinister or do they really mean it? Generally speaking, of course. I know that some individual can really believe in something that is just propaganda to someone higher up. That's not the question here.

Manchu wrote:Generally speaking, there are two reasonable interpretations of the Tau fluff:

Greater Good

Tau culture is naive, optimistic, brave, and noble. The Tau seek to create a society where all races can participate in the creation and preservation of prosperity and dignity for all. For the Tau, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts: when races work together, they can achieve a good that is impossible for them to even imagine individually. This "Greater Good" refers to best possible social arrangement for all sentient species.

Lesser Evil

Tau culture is cynical, imperialistic, oppressive, and demeaning -- just not to the degree that the Imperium is any of those things. Whereas mankind has decided that no other race may exist, the Tau have a slightly more moderate view: no other race may exist except that it submits to the Tau. This "Greater Good" refers to best possible social arrangement for the Tau and most especially the Ethereal caste. Benefits to other races are secondary.

Which do you prefer and why?

Combine them:

- Tau culture is naive ( unaware of the real state of the Galaxy they are born into ) , optimistic ( they still believe there could be hope ), imperialistic ( expand an EMPIRE ), oppressive ( no dissenters allowed ), does not integrate culture from their allies to stay "pure".
- For the Tau, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts: individuality is the devil and lack of social control the direct path to civil war.
- This "Greater Good" refers to best possible social arrangement for the Tau and most especially the Ethereal caste. Benefits to other races are secondary.

No, that is the opposite of the point of this thread -- as I already mentioned. You're supposed to decide between an emphasis on the noblility of the Tau or an emphasis on them being cynical conquerors.

A vote in the poll should suffice then.

I suppose ... but the main question is whether the Tau are a genuine bright spot in the GrimDark or just a slightly lighter shade of dark grey -- as in, is there room in 40k for a genuinely "good" faction?

I think this may be being overthought a little.

Really, it's not the greater good or the lesser evil but the "greater tau" or the "lesser everyone else". Both the tau and the imperium have an idea for how to structure the galaxy that is inherently hierarchical and selfish, oppressing the many so that the leading few can get their way.

If the imperium is vanilla and the tau empire chocolate, it doesn't change the fact that they're both ice cream.

Good and evil are subjective by nature, all sorta stuff like intent, purpose etc to consider.

The question seems more debatable as, would the Tau sacrifice themselves for the survival of the galaxy?

Shift scales as well, on average a Tau commander/etheral would save what number of allied forces at the cost of fire warrior lives?

That may make the question a little more approachable.

i just dont likr tau they annoy me lol

Ailaros wrote:If the imperium is vanilla and the tau empire chocolate, it doesn't change the fact that they're both ice cream.

That's not a very good analogy. We all know that the Imperium is pretty awful. There is a general impression that the Tau are definitely better. But there is disagreement as to what that means: are they better but still bad or actually good?

CpatTom wrote:Good and evil are subjective by nature

Uh, that's not really at issue here. We're talking about generalized IRL standards. IRL, mass killings of citizens by the government are bad. IRL, political oppression to the point of slavery is bad. IRL people look at the Imperium and go "gee, that's a pretty gakky system." So I don't think this needs to be a thread about moral relativism.

40k = eternal war.
It is not a fantasy game of good & evil ( not yet, and I prefer the shades of grey and room for the characters of each faction ).

We don't know how chaos "evolves" in 6th ed as the rulebook isn't clear enough, but we do know the Tau may get new friends and thus become more of a multi-species alliance. So the typical "evil" faction is not going to dim the lights yet and the game has no typical counterpart to everything. Humans and Eldar come in 2 flavors. Nids and Necrons and Orks don't. Tau are the only united faction right now and there is enough shades to represent their color without a reliance on a tag like "good guys".
So if it is ok to have some factions separated in 2 major groups and broken down too, to have some as splintered groups and only one as unified, why would this game have to have anything called good or evil beyond individual level?

So no, zero room for a "good" faction. Lots of space for "good" individuals.
Because as a faction, its impossible to be "good" or "evil" but the individual a faction is made of would grant it a different shade of grey IMO.

CpatTom wrote:The question seems more debatable as, would the Tau sacrifice themselves for the survival of the galaxy?

I don't think that question would make sense to the Tau -- at least not as you have stated it. What does "the galaxy" include, for example? Also, I don't think the Tau believe that the stakes are existential. Humanity's viewpoint seems to be "we dominate or we go extinct." Would humanity sacrifice itself to save the galaxy? What, you mean a hive of xenos scum? No fething way. Would the Tau do it? Er, what do you mean -- a bunch of self-serving gue'la with no concept of the Greater Good? No fething way. It's not even a proper question for either party.


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1hadhq wrote:So no, zero room for a "good" faction. Lots of space for "good" individuals.

Okay, then I can rephrase: who do you think is a "better" (morally speaking) individual: Farsight or Shadowsun?

You're not going to get an answer to this because it's an entirely 'point of view' thing, and like religion its a rather volatile one because people have strong feelings where the tau are concerned. It's quite possible for one POV to view the Tau in an optimistic light (the tau themselves) and others to view them as a horrible horrible threat.
It's like asking what is better. Freedom or security, the individual or the group, or stuff like that. Different people will ascirbe different values to concepts based on what they think is right/appropriate.

Hell it's not exactly like the tau have to be one single, monolithic block in their beliefs, attitudes, or behaviour. Even for a culture as united as they are, you can have room for variation (EG some tau can be jerks, some can be noble and fairminded, etc.)

As far as the tau POV goes they obviously feel justified in doing what they need to for the greater good and what they see as the benefit of all (whether the people they are 'helping' feel the same way or not is irrelevant, becuase they are probably seen as misguided or not knowing what is best for them. That may be misguided but it doesn't make the tau tyrants or monsters.) And yet, they're as expansionist as the Imperium, so naturally not everyone is going to see it the same way the tau do.

Please remember the question is "which do you prefer?" rather than "which is correct?".

I prefer the first option, as it is a slightly rephrased version of the original designer notes on Tau:

In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.

Having a single race that doesn't consist of rabid psychos wanting to slay everything in sight with a bloody chainsaw was what drew me back into 40k.

I tend to agree. I prefer to think of the Tau as being quite genuine in their good intentions. The Imperium is horrified by them precisely because the Imperium is evil.

Ailaros wrote:I think this may be being overthought a little.

Really, it's not the greater good or the lesser evil but the "greater tau" or the "lesser everyone else". Both the tau and the imperium have an idea for how to structure the galaxy that is inherently hierarchical and selfish, oppressing the many so that the leading few can get their way.

If the imperium is vanilla and the tau empire chocolate, it doesn't change the fact that they're both ice cream.

both tasty and informative

I consider myself a sucker for the good guys, so more often thatn not i tend to side with the white knight rather than the villian. When Tau first came about i really liked how they were, as i saw them, a new race of good guys who tried to fight for the betterment of everybody instead of themselves. As time went by however the fluff i think has swayed from pure good to secretly corrupt... This is 40k, and its grim dark, so maybe the concensus is that they cant be too nice.

I however like to think of them as purely good guys. Theres gotta be some sort of light on the horizon, an it cant be a conicidence that they dont use the warp. Also the fact that theyre allies for space marines seems like a push twoards the good side to me.

I imagine the Ethereals don't believe in the Greater Good but the uneducated workers and low ranking soldiers do.

well , as i had seen its "our greater good" staff. only if you are special hero you will theaten the same.even kroot which are tald "same as tau" they are USED in the war more than assist. otherwise we could had kroot in crisis suit or something similar

That's a rather clever juxtaposition, Manchu, well done for phrasing it so neatly.

My guess, 58% of the voters don't like and play Tau

Kroothawk wrote:My guess, 58% of the voters don't like and play Tau

Maybe 2/3 of the voters are immune to propaganda?

I voted option #1, I really think they are good-intentioned and earnest in their beliefs. Though they means they use to achieve this may be questionable to some.

well they fight for their survival. they went to stars to survuve in case of destuction of their planet. so they will do EVERYTHING to survive.
as tau player , my most consern is if chaos gods lure the tau , promising that their race will last forever......... tau will acept it or not?

English Assassin wrote:That's a rather clever juxtaposition, Manchu, well done for phrasing it so neatly.

Ah, thanks very much. Seemed fitting.

Kroothawk wrote:My guess, 58% of the voters don't like and play Tau

I don't know, a lot of people who think the Tau are sinister might find that to be appealing about them. This is 40k after all -- not everyone comes for the rainbows and unicorns.

Pada wrote:well they fight for their survival. they went to stars to survuve in case of destuction of their planet. so they will do EVERYTHING to survive.

I don't think they're just content to survive. I think they want something more than bare survival. That's a big difference between the Tau and the Imperium. The Tau want something more; they have a larger project in mind. But that could support either of the choices represented in the poll.

Im going to side with Lesser Evil. I feel it fits the setting better.

That and being human, I would prefer to be cheering for the humans lol

My option isn't there.

The Tau believe they are the Greater Good and try to adhere to those principles. However as those principles are so wildly optimistic the end result looks like Lesser Evil as much as Greater Good.

So Both.

The way I look at the Tau...

Upon their introduction to the galaxy at large, they were a shining beacon of hope and kindness.

Gradually that beacon has been dimmed. Their idealism is becoming cynicism, and more and more they are beginning to realize that kindness will just put you at a disadvantage. They are currently the "Imperium That Could Have Been", while slowly sinking down to the level of the "Imperium That Is".