Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I love the mod discussion here! @manchu, I wasn't even aware of the phrase, but yes, it fits my personal image of the Tau precisely.

@veteran, while I see what you mean with your comparisons to Huxley & Germany, I don't think you're looking at the whole picture. Remember the Tyranid invasion, and the encounter with the Dark Eldar that ensued. The tau as a race were gullible enough to fall for it; even the Ethereals. I think it's unfair to say that their nationalism is truly unfounded; even the US had to become a nationalist country to keep up with the British Empire, then Germany & Japan, and later the USSR. To an extent, most good guys in a story are delusional, and every good guy grows up. So too the Tau - they're reaching their coming of age as an empire, where they're probably going to have to decide whether they will be in it for the good of everyone, or simply their own.

Rome brought great things to the lands they conquered; India would be a hellhole today were it not for the introduction of the railroad by the Brits. Yet we largely view these empires as good examples, for the most part, especially compared to their alternatives at the time. Can not the Tau be one of those, too?

Kroothawk wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think the Tau have met other races besides the Kroot.

"The tau subjugate all races they meet."
"But the designer notes say the contrary."
"Erm, but every race they meet is subjugated."
"Kroot aren't. Tau help them altruistically to not get extinct, fighting a hard 10 years war without asking for anything. Later the Kroot are grateful for that. One even becomes a general in the Tau army."
"Erm, but every other race is subjugated"
"But Vespids join the Empire voluntarily and are valued as equals in the army. And Demiurg are just allies"
"But ... but ... here a race I just made up that is totally subjugated."

Wow, Kroothawk you've taken strawman to a whole new level. Completely conversing with yourself. Well done.

I voted two, that much hope and happy usually means it's a facade for something foul and rotten.

uberjoras wrote: I think it's unfair to say that their nationalism is truly unfounded

Who said it was unfounded?

It's very well designed to do what it does. Galvanize the elemental castes and give them a cohesive vision for the Empire. The nationalism isn't a sham. It's just very well nurtured and reinforced. The Greater Good is pervasive. It's in everything they do, and the belief in the overwhelming and unquestioned "right" of what they do is part of the Tau. The Nazi party used a similar approach to galvanize a German population that had been humiliated by the treaty of Versailles. Slowly but surely the Germans were whipped up into a hyper-nationalistic collective social state of mind. I know about Godwin's law and all that, lol, but this truly is a valid Nazi comparison, and I use it simply because it's the easiest real world analogy that nearly everybody would know. Nationalism is important to every successful country, so it's certainly not a thing unique to Germany. I use them because they're demonstrative of a populace that was able to be directed at a very nationalistic purpose, and didn't always ask a lot of questions. The Tau are much the same way. The Tau believe wholeheartedly in The Greater Good, even though in the process they've been socially engineered and confined to castes in order to preserve the maximized genetic makeup of those castes.

I don't question your example of Germany at all; you're correct in drawing the parallel. You even seem to be basically agreeing with me on a fair number of points; I think where we differ is what defines the "Greater Good" versus "The Good of Others" and "The Good of the Tau". That argument would eventually fall down the whole altruism/selfishness debate though, and I doubt the mods want that can opened here. Suffice to say that in my interpretation, the Tau do a good job on both of them, despite not having any real obligations to the other races they encounter (They could easily have killed off the Vespid, their colonies would be more efficient without humans, could have turned a blind eye to the Kroot, and they still have to be paid, etc). The tau (read: the Ethereals creating policy) do it either out of their belief in a "Greater Good", or a "Why not?" attitude, both of which point to a general tendency towards benevolence.

What I'm more trying to get at, though, is that while sure, the Tau are invested in their national pride, and the entire caste/social system of the tau revolves around the seemingly all-important Ethereals, you don't really see the "heads of state" abusing their power. Think of them like a charismatic leader, like Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, George Washington, or even Tokugawa Ieyasu. All exerted a control over their followers, and commanded respect even from their enemies. The Ethereals do much the same, for no truly definitive reason other than GW says they do.

However, have the Ethereals done well for the Tau? Have they been able to help the Kroot from extinction, and grow as a culture? Did they aid the Vespids in gaining technology, and forming a unified culture? Have they provided better rights to those humans under their rule than the Imperium gave? Yes, to all of these. I see the Tau's imperialism as not really harming anyone yet. Maybe in the long term, it's changing each of their "allies" into a more Tau-friendly, tau-dependent culture, but real-life colonial powers were the same anyways!

What surprises me in this whole discussion up until now is the only fleeting mention of the Vespid in particular, who had very little to no way of unifying their race, much less surviving should the Imperium decide their world was worth anything. Much like in India with the UK, the Tau moved in and really helped them; yes, they're taking the natural resources from the planet, including manpower (bugpower?), but the gains are so significant for the Vespid that the trade-off was actually quite well worth it for the bug-folk, particularly since they retain pretty much complete free reign over their planet, and aren't being oppressed like the Indians were historically.

well Tau arent Nazis ,but yes they have a very simillar way of thinking.the diference is that other races are acetable even if they dont belive in Greater Good.but they suffer penalties.if that were Nazis doing , then ok they are simila.BUT remeber from were Hitler took his system .Its from greek city-states , a place whith mono "Greek are civilased , all others barbarians". that remebers me the Tau in form " Tau Empire is civilased , others are selfish barbarians" .the only exeption is Eldar, there there is a "same whith as lever" view

Kroothawk wrote:

Pada wrote:Tau :join us or get destroyed.but you can just surunder

Have you ever read about Kroot and how they met Tau and finally joined the Tau Empire (and how Anghkor Prok became a general in the tau army)?
Funny how the best documented example doesn't fit at all your statement. Do you really think that ultra-pragmatic Kroot are slaves to Tau pheromones or propaganda and licking their boots?

Guess who is the victim of propaganda now?

they choosed the "join us" way.And i had said to other topic that Etherials dont have pheromones . Also propaganda maybe has a truth inside it.
About kroot: they were slaved by orks.Tau saved them and asked their asist to help others.Kroot saw it as a change to "update" their DNA so the came.
about vespids: it was a trade of style " join and we give you techonolgy" . They gladly accepted it ( althought maybe they get slaves)
also: you have ever read how humans who dont believe in the Geater Good live in the Empire? And how they who believe? the fist live like Middle Ages , the last as Tau

Pada wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Pada wrote:Tau :join us or get destroyed.but you can just surunder

Have you ever read about Kroot and how they met Tau and finally joined the Tau Empire (and how Anghkor Prok became a general in the tau army)?
Funny how the best documented example doesn't fit at all your statement. Do you really think that ultra-pragmatic Kroot are slaves to Tau pheromones or propaganda and licking their boots?

Guess who is the victim of propaganda now?

you have ever read how humans who dont believe in the Geater Good live in the Empire?

Most likely still better than not believing in the Emperor in the Imperium. In some case, maybe even better than Believing in the Emperor in the Imperium.


I think Tau really are the One speck of light in the Darkness of the 40k Universe, but only because of their Naivety.

They couldn't comprehend something as large as a titan until they fought one. They still really do not Grasp the size of the Imperium. They don't understand the concept of Gods and believe they killed either Tzeentch or Slaanesh. I forget which one.

IMHO, right now they are trying to not only expand their empire, but try and make all the citizens( both Tau and not Tau) happy working for the Greater Good of the Empire, but eventually they will start to distrust other non Empire aliens (once bitten twice shy) and monitor them more closely before trying to start up negotiations, and any dissenters within the Empire may eventually lead to the dissenters species to be closely monitored, For the Greater Good of course, to make sure no harm comes to the Empire or any of it's citizens.

Even if you do bad things, it can still genuinely be for the Greater Good. That's different from what I've called the "Lesser Evil," where one does bad things imply because they're useful. With the Tau, this is a fine line. The idea of the Greater Good, even if we imagine it to be a serious ideal rather than just propaganda, is very closely tied into a practical outlook. So the bad things that "good guy" Tau do serve a useful end -- we just have to remember that end is supposed to be to the benefit of all. This as opposed to the "bad guy" Tau who just gangsters, doing whatever bad things just to shore up their own power/superiority. So even if the Tau do eventually become less trusting (not that I think of them as that trusting currently), it doesn't necessarily lead them down the path of "Lesser Evil."

if you mean about the reason of fighting , Tau believe that in that way help all the galaxy.
IIRC there is a proof for that : Tau of Vior'la when Farshight left the Empire thought that maybe he was right.Showndown (P.S NOT A ETHERIAL , that for the what-etherials-are topic ) and they decided to conitie follow the Empire.That means that is a ideology and not propaganda.otherise why Tau want to leve the place where rule?

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

i want to metion that Tau believe that they saving them and the others who will follow them. Farsight's treson did tau think that maybe they were wrong.that means that it wasnt just progaganda but they believe that Greater Good

Ah okay, I think that's a pretty good point. I guess people will say "oh, they're just brainwashed by the Ethereals" -- is it true that Vior'la openly agreed with Farsight?

As we all know Farshight decided that Tau had to fight as a race
so that is from Tau codex : "for the loyalty of the Fire caste was not sure as it had once been, whith many of its warriors openly proclaiming their support for the renegate Commader Farshith.Whith O'Shovah breakway from the Tau Empire,his deeds have, despite the best attepts of the Etherials , caused a schism among the Fire Warriors of the Tau"

i hope that i covered you

Well, the poll has been up for ten days now and we're currently seeing a significant preference for Tau as genuinely pursuing the Greater Good instead of being just one more "bad guy" faction. That makes sense in some ways: if the Tau were villains, they'd be pretty bad at it compared to CSM or Dark Eldar. But I am surprised at the results, too, because 40k is so often characterized as the setting without "good guys."

I think the problem is that you don't have an "In Between" choice Manchu. If you had that, I know I would have voted by now.

Do you hate on the light switch because there are no options besides on and off? Tau are generally sincere or Tau are generally insincere. What is the third option?

well i voted "Greater Good" but that doent mean that i belive are the good guys, beter in some aspects yes, but worse in others.Tau can easy destroy a planet more than IoM , only that because "etherials said it "
they are good whith they help them, but they kill every one that isnt whith them. Eldar are better than them, maybe and IoM in a part.
They are more "secret evil"

Manchu wrote:ThDo you hate on the light switch because there are no options besides on and off?

No, but that's why I have dimmer switches.

We're obviously not talking about absolute but relative terms. If the Tau are genuinely interested in helping other races, they are definitely good guys relative to every other faction in 40k.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Manchu wrote:Do you hate on the light switch because there are no options besides on and off?

No, but that's why I have dimmer switches.

A dimmer switch does not affect the question "are the lights on or off." If the lights are turned down low, they're still on. If they're at maximum brightness, they're still on. If they're not on then they are off.

My light switch is a dimmer switch, so yes there are options besides "On" and "Off".

Really though. There is no faction, aside from the followers of Chaos, which are "good" or "evil".

Shades of grey abound in 40k. The Imperium, to us, is a fascist empire which makes Iran look like Disney World.
But to them, in a universe where mere thoughts can draw the predations of beings existing in a realm of madness their methodologies are not only acceptable but are in fact necessary.

For the Tau, I still maintain that they could easily have started out as "The Good Guys". But much like you or I, it's very easy for their optimism to become cynicism or downright pessimism.

as i said in a previous post, they dont interest of other races, more than make their better by recuiting more.they "abadon" the term rece and put indseat the word "empire"

Kanluwen wrote:My light switch is a dimmer switch, so yes there are options besides "On" and "Off".

See above -- no there aren't. Even with a dimmer switch, the lights are either on or off.

Kanluwen wrote:For the Tau, I still maintain that they could easily have started out as "The Good Guys". But much like you or I, it's very easy for their optimism to become cynicism or downright pessimism.

Well, that is the question: are the Tau currently optimists or pessimists? You don't need a third option there, either.

Manchu wrote:We're obviously not talking about absolute but relative terms. If the Tau are genuinely interested in helping other races, they are definitely good guys relative to every other faction in 40k.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Manchu wrote:Do you hate on the light switch because there are no options besides on and off?

No, but that's why I have dimmer switches.

A dimmer switch does not affect the question "are the lights on or off." If the lights are turned down low, they're still on. If they're at maximum brightness, they're still on. If they're not on then they are off.

On mine you can turn it on but it's still dark

Pilau Rice wrote:On mine you can turn it on but it's still dark

So ... the lights are not on.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:On mine you can turn it on but it's still dark

So ... the lights are not on.

But my light switch would suggest otherwise

How about:

Tau culture is naive, optimistic, brave, and noble. The Tau seek to create a society where all races can participate in the creation and preservation of prosperity and dignity for all. For the Tau, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts: when races work together, they can achieve a good that is impossible for them to even imagine individually. This "Greater Good" refers to the best possible social arrangement for all sentient species, however, no other race may exist except that it submits to the Tau.

Does that make sense

Pilau Rice wrote:This "Greater Good" refers to the best possible social arrangement for all sentient species, however, no other race may exist except that it submits to the Tau.

Does that make sense.

No. Although you have mixed phrases from the first and second options, the result is that the meaning is the same as the second option.

To wit:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:On mine you can turn it on but it's still dark

So ... the lights are not on.

But my light switch would suggest otherwise

So your light switch provides you with a meaningless option: the switch says the lights are on but they are not actually on.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:This "Greater Good" refers to the best possible social arrangement for all sentient species, however, no other race may exist except that it submits to the Tau.

Does that make sense.

No. Although you have mixed phrases from the first and second options, the result is that the meaning is the same as the second option.

Oh, didn't mean the same to me. Basically Tau have all these great and noble ideas, will be your best buddy if you go along with their plans, help you out, but will nuke you if you aren't on the same page.

Manchu wrote:To wit

Towooo

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:On mine you can turn it on but it's still dark

So ... the lights are not on.

But my light switch would suggest otherwise

So your light switch provides you with a meaningless option: the switch says the lights are on but they are not actually on.

Yeah, it's really dark still until you turn it up, isn't that how dimmer switches are supposed to work?

Pilau Rice wrote:Tau have all these great and noble ideas, will be your best buddy if you go along with their plans, help you out, but will nuke you if you aren't on the same page.

[

EXACLY.but that is in the fist option than on the second.
also tau dont trust everyone that says that he is whith the Greater Good

Pilau Rice wrote:Basically Tau have all these great and noble ideas, will be your best buddy if you go along with their plans, help you out, but will nuke you if you aren't on the same page.

In other words, benefits to others are secondary while the main point is to shore up the Tau. This is kind of the crux: if the "Greater Good" is just some way to shoehorn other races into a "friendly" (read: subservient) alliance or if the Tau actually think there's room for everyone eventually.

Pilau Rice wrote:Yeah, it's really dark still until you turn it up, isn't that how dimmer switches are supposed to work?

At some point, the lights are off and and some point the lights are on. Dim light is still light. Darkness is never light.

Pada wrote:also tau dont trust everyone that says that he is whith the Greater Good

So where does that fit in?

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Basically Tau have all these great and noble ideas, will be your best buddy if you go along with their plans, help you out, but will nuke you if you aren't on the same page.

In other words, benefits to others are secondary while the main point is to shore up the Tau. This is kind of the crux: if the "Greater Good" is just some way to shoehorn other races into a "friendly" (read: subservient) alliance or if the Tau actually think there's room for everyone eventually

They would like to think so, from what I know of the Tau, but they aren't all smile and sunshine.

Manchu wrote:At some point, the lights are off and and some point the lights are on. Dim light is still light. Darkness is never light

Would you like me to give you a run down of how my dimmer switch works? So if it's not pitch black, it's not dark?