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I know the religious text is called the Lectitio Divinatus and it was originally penned by the Primarch Lorgar

Has anyone considered that Big E may not have started as a God, but now due to the Imperial Cult is one? Emotions have power in the warp, and can form gods, just look at the 4 chaos gods. It's quite possible that Big E did assent to god hood.

It's called the Imperial Cult.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Has anyone considered that Big E may not have started as a God, but now due to the Imperial Cult is one? Emotions have power in the warp, and can form gods, just look at the 4 chaos gods. It's quite possible that Big E did assent to god hood.

Indeed.

Either that, or that the Imperial faith has "birthed" an entirely new godlike being that unintentionally took the place of the God-Emperor, perhaps even believing that it is the Emperor simply because the masses think this. Meanwhile, the Emperor's true soul watches in anger as this warp spirit starts to exert control over the Imperium, and actually does a rather good job at it, as its motifs are dominated by "public demand".

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:More a lesson to him that you can't take humanity out of humans. When people don't have any answers or they're in a crisis, they'll hope, believe, want some greater being to sort things out. The Emperor, therefore, is a suitable person to worship when you hear he is dead & that there has been a civil war. The Emperor who taught humanity so much, who led them in a great crusade across the stars, the guiding hand of Mankind... is dead. What shall we do? Is there anyone who can replace him? Maybe if we pray to him he'll come back & protect us? Or he will protect us from whatever lays beyond, oh Guide us God-Emperor, hear our prayers!

That doesn't justify the twisted parody the Imperium has become. The Ecclesiarchy is no better than the dregs of Chaos. Guilliman and the others should have taken control - they would have figured out a better way to keep the Imperium together without resorting to religion.

Your underestimating the amount of fear of Chaos was present after the heresy even amongst The Primarchs. This new faith was the only thing keeping the Imperium together and at first it just seems like really strong loyalty to The Big E.

DENIED (beheads a beaten missionary). We don't need the Imperial Cult. What we need is Roboutte Guilliman at the head of the council - the man can make a path for unity without resorting to religion.

Manchu wrote:The movement that became the Ecclesiarchy was called the Temple of the Savior Emperor.

However, the Temple of the Savior Emperor is now heretical as it still recognizes only Vandire.

Sebastian Thor's Confederation of Light is now the Ecclesiarchy.

Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:The movement that became the Ecclesiarchy was called the Temple of the Savior Emperor.

However, the Temple of the Savior Emperor is now heretical as it still recognizes only Vandire.

Sebastian Thor's Confederation of Light is now the Ecclesiarchy.

TBH, I never understood the difference between the two. Was there even one, apart from the name and leaders of the respective cults?

The main difference is on the focus of the two cults.

The Confederation of Light is focused on self-sacrifice and humility, although it doesn't always succeed. It models itself on Thor's life, sacrificing all for the good of the Emperor.

The Temple of the Savior Emperor, however, is more debauched, and has a tendency to gather material wealth and enjoy the pleasures of life.

That's the main difference as far as I know.

Melissia wrote:However, the Temple of the Savior Emperor is now heretical as it still recognizes only Vandire.

If you are referring to FFG's Temple Tendency, I suppose it's important to point out that this is a splinter faction of the greater Ecclesiarchy, which came to be formed from the Temple of the Saviour Emperor (amongst many other assimilated cults). Both the Temple Tendency as well as the Post-Vandire Ecclesiarchy thus have a connection to the Temple of the Saviour Emperor. It's not like the Imperium would have ousted all members of the clergy that were around back then - which, ironically, only makes it easier for groups such as the Temple Tendency to gain a "foot in the door" of the modern Ministorum.

There's loads of holy scriptures and commandments still preached whose origin is far older than M36. I have no idea how old the tenets of the Imperial Creed are, but I would not be surprised if they are way older as well.

Lynata wrote:

Melissia wrote:However, the Temple of the Savior Emperor is now heretical as it still recognizes only Vandire.

If you are referring to FFG's Temple Tendency, I suppose it's important to point out that this is a splinter faction of the greater Ecclesiarchy, which came to be formed from the Temple of the Saviour Emperor (amongst many other assimilated cults). Both the Temple Tendency as well as the Post-Vandire Ecclesiarchy thus have a connection to the Temple of the Saviour Emperor. It's not like the Imperium would have ousted all members of the clergy that were around back then - which, ironically, only makes it easier for groups such as the Temple Tendency to gain a "foot in the door" of the modern Ministorum.

There's loads of holy scriptures and commandments still preached whose origin is far older than M36. I have no idea how old the tenets of the Imperial Creed are, but I would not be surprised if they are way older as well.

Oh, I know that much. But I believe that this isn't actually invented by FFG, instead it is strongly suggested by Games Workshop's fluff about Vandire and Thor, with FFG merely elaborating on it.

Melissia wrote:Oh, I know that much. But I believe that this isn't actually invented by FFG, instead it is strongly suggested by Games Workshop's fluff about Vandire and Thor, with FFG merely elaborating on it.

You are still referring to the Temple Tendency?

I'm referring to the two sects.

Melissia wrote:I'm referring to the two sects.

The Confederation of Light doesn't have anything to to with the Temple Tendency - it was wiped out long before Vandire took power. Aside from the Temple of the Saviour Emperor itself, this was - as far as I remember - the only other cult ever mentioned in GW's background for the Ecclesiarchy.

Vandire himself never had a unique sect, so there was really nothing to elaborate on. What whoever wrote the Temple Tendency did was just to consider the obvious - that some people do not believe in change, preferring to cling to what they know - and work it from there.

There's lots of real life examples where something similar happened. As a (former) German, what springs to mind right away would be Nazi party members sitting in the post-WW2 West German government, courts and secret service.

A wonderful piece of irony - the Emperor taught them not to follow religions, but with the loss of the Emperor they willingly turned back to worship and, as an extra kick in the nads, worshiped the Emperor. Brilliant.

Indeed ironic .

Daemonhammer wrote:

A wonderful piece of irony - the Emperor taught them not to follow religions, but with the loss of the Emperor they willingly turned back to worship and, as an extra kick in the nads, worshiped the Emperor. Brilliant.

Indeed ironic .

More irony: He punished the Word Bearers for worshipping him as a god, and not only is he worshipped as a god, the Lectitio Divinitatus, which details how to worship the Emperor, was written by Lorgar.

Cerebrium wrote:

Daemonhammer wrote:

A wonderful piece of irony - the Emperor taught them not to follow religions, but with the loss of the Emperor they willingly turned back to worship and, as an extra kick in the nads, worshiped the Emperor. Brilliant.

Indeed ironic .

More irony: He punished the Word Bearers for worshipping him as a god, and not only is he worshipped as a god, the Lectitio Divinitatus, which details how to worship the Emperor, was written by Lorgar.

The Lectitio Divinitatus is the name of the book Lorgar wrote, not the religion itself.
A lectitio or lectionary, is a collection of scripture readings (technically ones that should be read on specific days).

That would make the contents of the book the Imperial Creed.
There are countless schisms of this Creed all contained within the Ecclessiarchy. When those schisms become too great, the local churches involved are either declared heretics and got rid of or forced to follow a more accepted version. This happened a lot in the early catholic church too.

cadbren wrote:The Lectitio Divinitatus is the name of the book Lorgar wrote, not the religion itself. [...] That would make the contents of the book the Imperial Creed.

Do these novels specifically refer to it as such?

According to the 2E SoB Codex, the Imperial Creed embodies the ideals of the founder of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor, an Imperial officer who came to be known as Fatidicus. These ideals, he claims, he received in a vision of the Emperor Himself, shortly after the Emperor died at the hands of Horus. This officer served in the defence of the Imperial Palace on Terra before turning into a preacher, which he only did after the Emperor was already dead. I don't see the connection.

Well i had read in one novel (Ravenor) that if they dont follow the religous books at 100% and have inside things from other beliefs, a serious action it will be taken.Maybe even Extreminatus

Lynata wrote:

cadbren wrote:The Lectitio Divinitatus is the name of the book Lorgar wrote, not the religion itself. [...] That would make the contents of the book the Imperial Creed.

Do these novels specifically refer to it as such?

According to the 2E SoB Codex, the Imperial Creed embodies the ideals of the founder of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor, an Imperial officer who came to be known as Fatidicus. These ideals, he claims, he received in a vision of the Emperor Himself, shortly after the Emperor died at the hands of Horus. This officer served in the defence of the Imperial Palace on Terra before turning into a preacher, which he only did after the Emperor was already dead. I don't see the connection.

Probably a latent psyker at best, or a daemonic vision at worst.

Lynata wrote:

cadbren wrote:The Lectitio Divinitatus is the name of the book Lorgar wrote, not the religion itself. [...] That would make the contents of the book the Imperial Creed.

Do these novels specifically refer to it as such?

The Horus Heresy books refer to the Lectitio as a book, I don't recall if the followers are given a specific name. The contents being the Imperial Creed is my opinion.

According to the 2E SoB Codex, the Imperial Creed embodies the ideals of the founder of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor,

That may be so, but the Temple of the Saviour Emperor sounds like the name of a church. Even if that is where the Ecclessiarchy originated, it doesn't mean that is the name of the religion. It would be like calling Catholicism 'The Vatican' or similar.

It is called "The Greater Good".

Tadashi wrote:Probably a latent psyker at best, or a daemonic vision at worst.

Or maybe just a religious man who claimed he saw stuff.
We have that in real life, too.

cadbren wrote:That may be so, but the Temple of the Saviour Emperor sounds like the name of a church. Even if that is where the Ecclessiarchy originated, it doesn't mean that is the name of the religion. It would be like calling Catholicism 'The Vatican' or similar.

Well, I suppose you might call it a case of abstraction. When people talk of the Christian Church, they generally mean the cult as a whole, too, even though a church is originally a building just like a temple. The words are pretty much interchangable.

Here's a quote from the Codex, though, to (hopefully) clear up confusion regarding both the original name of the Ecclesiarchy as well as shedding more light on its origins and the works of Fatidicus, for those who are interested yet do not have access to the book itself:

"Following the ultimate sacrifice of the Emperor, the Imperium was swept by a general upsurge in adoration and worship for him. Visionaries and prophets appeared on every world and cults following these divinely inspired individuals soon grew. There was no central organisation, no control, and even on the same planet there could be hundreds of different denominations, each performing their worship in a different manner, every one of them interpreting the Emperor's will in a slightly different way.

As is the way of such things, the stronger cults grew and prospered while the smaller, weaker ones faded away or were incorporated into the larger sects. Compromises of interpretation were found and slowly many cults became united. Although lots of worlds still had several different sects, other cults managed to spread beyond the surface of their planet, their servants travelling to other stars and worlds to spread their own version of faith. The most successful of these was the Temple of the Saviour Emperor.

The Temple of the Saviour Emperor had a number of advantages over its theological rivals. For a start it was centered on Terra, the Imperial planet, the centre point of the human race and the resting place of the Emperor himself. Secondly, its fanatical leader was originally a well-respected and highly decorated Imperial Guard officer who served in the defence of the Imperial Palace. He claimed he was sent instructions by the Emperor, who came to him in dreams and visions. His original name has long since passed from memory, but the officer renamed himself Fatidicus, which means 'Prophet' in one of the ancient Terran tongues. Fatidicus formed a massive following from the Imperial forces on Earth. From lowly scribes and clerks to Imperial Navy commanders and colonels of the Imperial Guard, the Temple of the Saviour Emperor welcomed everybody.

As time passed and these followers spread out across the Imperium in pursuit of their various duties, the Temple of the Saviour Emperor spread with them. Army and Navy officers initiated their men into the rites of the Temple, while zealous Missionaries travelled through the Imperium teaching their own religious code to anybody who would listen. They would use their immense skills to slowly incorporate the beliefs of those they met, while also imposing the doctrines of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor. At the venerable age of 120, Fatidicus died, but by now there were over a billion dedicated followers on Earth itself and countless servants throughout the Segmentum Solar."

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Probably a latent psyker at best, or a daemonic vision at worst.

Or maybe just a religious man who claimed he saw stuff.
We have that in real life, too.

I suddenly remembered The Last Church.

‘If a man claimed his dead grandfather was speaking to him he’d be locked up in an asylum, but if he were to claim the voice of god was speaking to him, his fellow clerics might well make him into a saint. Clearly there is safety in numbers when it comes to hearing voices, eh?’

His Imperial Majesty has a very nice sense of humor...and yes, I am quite serious. All of a sudden, how the Ecclesiarchy took power becomes clear - there was more of them. It also makes me very suspicious of those visions received by Alicia and her fellow sisters...

Tadashi wrote:His Imperial Majesty has a very nice sense of humor...and yes, I am quite serious. All of a sudden, how the Ecclesiarchy took power becomes clear - there was more of them. It also makes me very suspicious of those visions received by Alicia and her fellow sisters...

I'd say it was less about existing numbers and more about potential. Humanity has always been susceptible to following a cause, and religion offers spiritual comfort.

As for any visions - if one were to believe this (personally, I'm on the fence and reserve judgment), it could of course tie in with a number of theories about the Emperor's continueing influence. Be it his persisting spirit attempting to guide the Imperium (a belief held by many in the Imperium, even some Space Marines), or an actual god being born out people's worship and "assuming" the role of Emperor. The latter theory came up recently in the "good daemons" thread, and I thought it was a rather interesting idea.

Lynata wrote:...personally, I'm on the fence and reserve judgment...

I can respect that. Me, I'm on the Great Crusade/Chaotic Good side of the fence.

Tadashi wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:More a lesson to him that you can't take humanity out of humans. When people don't have any answers or they're in a crisis, they'll hope, believe, want some greater being to sort things out. The Emperor, therefore, is a suitable person to worship when you hear he is dead & that there has been a civil war. The Emperor who taught humanity so much, who led them in a great crusade across the stars, the guiding hand of Mankind... is dead. What shall we do? Is there anyone who can replace him? Maybe if we pray to him he'll come back & protect us? Or he will protect us from whatever lays beyond, oh Guide us God-Emperor, hear our prayers!

That doesn't justify the twisted parody the Imperium has become. The Ecclesiarchy is no better than the dregs of Chaos. Guilliman and the others should have taken control - they would have figured out a better way to keep the Imperium together without resorting to religion.

Your underestimating the amount of fear of Chaos was present after the heresy even amongst The Primarchs. This new faith was the only thing keeping the Imperium together and at first it just seems like really strong loyalty to The Big E.

DENIED (beheads a beaten missionary). We don't need the Imperial Cult. What we need is Roboutte Guilliman at the head of the council - the man can make a path for unity without resorting to religion.

Well, it looks like Guilliman must have made a pact with the burgeoning Ecclesiarchy to shore up his position back in the day. Which then immediately yeilded to the High Lords which always has a member from the church on it.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well, it looks like Guilliman must have made a pact with the burgeoning Ecclesiarchy to shore up his position back in the day. Which then immediately yeilded to the High Lords which always has a member from the church on it.

The Ecclesiarchy didn't have a seat on the Imperial Senate for quite some time - it took a while to spread and gain enough influence to appear irreplacable. From what it reads like in the studio material, Guilliman basically organised the High Lords to be the Emperor's pseudo-successors in terms of governance, simultaneously split up the Legions and the Imperial Army and established the Codex Astartes before voluntarily withdrawing from his office, obviously convinced that his work was done and that the humans should take over now (thus following the Emperor's original vision that the Marines weren't meant to be rulers but servants to humanity).

Good Guy Guilliman was probably the most humble of all Primarchs considering this act. I don't think he intended for the Ecclesiarchy to become recognized and even gain a seat on the Council, though, given the Space Marines' aversion to worshipping the Emperor as a god.

Lynata wrote:
Good Guy Guilliman was probably the most humble of all Primarchs considering this act. I don't think he intended for the Ecclesiarchy to become recognized and even gain a seat on the Council, though, given the Space Marines' aversion to worshipping the Emperor as a god.

Stupidity...Guilliman should never have divided the legions and never should have given up his post. In fact, he should have dissolved the council entirely, and as the Second Emperor, rebuilt the Imperium as a grander version of the Realm of Ultramar.

Lynata wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well, it looks like Guilliman must have made a pact with the burgeoning Ecclesiarchy to shore up his position back in the day. Which then immediately yeilded to the High Lords which always has a member from the church on it.

The Ecclesiarchy didn't have a seat on the Imperial Senate for quite some time - it took a while to spread and gain enough influence to appear irreplacable. From what it reads like in the studio material, Guilliman basically organised the High Lords to be the Emperor's pseudo-successors in terms of governance, simultaneously split up the Legions and the Imperial Army and established the Codex Astartes before voluntarily withdrawing from his office, obviously convinced that his work was done and that the humans should take over now (thus following the Emperor's original vision that the Marines weren't meant to be rulers but servants to humanity).

Good Guy Guilliman was probably the most humble of all Primarchs considering this act. I don't think he intended for the Ecclesiarchy to become recognized and even gain a seat on the Council, though, given the Space Marines' aversion to worshipping the Emperor as a god.

Tadashi wrote:

Lynata wrote:
Good Guy Guilliman was probably the most humble of all Primarchs considering this act. I don't think he intended for the Ecclesiarchy to become recognized and even gain a seat on the Council, though, given the Space Marines' aversion to worshipping the Emperor as a god.

Stupidity...Guilliman should never have divided the legions and never should have given up his post. In fact, he should have dissolved the council entirely, and as the Second Emperor, rebuilt the Imperium as a grander version of the Realm of Ultramar.

It was both incredibly humble and stupid. But hindsight is 20/20 as they say.