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He divided the Legions and the Army so a revolt on the same scale as the HH couldn't happen again. It makes perfect sense. And Guilliman stuck to the plan that Marines are servants of mankind, and not leaders, thank the Emperor.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:He divided the Legions and the Army so a revolt on the same scale as the HH couldn't happen again. It makes perfect sense. And Guilliman stuck to the plan that Marines are servants of mankind, and not leaders, thank the Emperor.

And in so doing killed the only chance of the Imperium not becoming a monstrosity after the Horus Heresy. Look around you, Guardsman. How different is the Imperium from Chaos? In Chaos there is anarchy...in the Imperium there is stagnation. How is that any better?

The Astrades had their shot to run things with a unified Legion system. They failed. Hard.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The Astrades had their shot to run things with a unified Legion system. They failed. Hard.

I would say the same for normal Humans. Either way, we're damned unless the Emperor gets off the throne and takes control.

Lynata wrote:

cadbren wrote:The Lectitio Divinitatus is the name of the book Lorgar wrote, not the religion itself. [...] That would make the contents of the book the Imperial Creed.

Do these novels specifically refer to it as such?

According to the 2E SoB Codex, the Imperial Creed embodies the ideals of the founder of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor, an Imperial officer who came to be known as Fatidicus. These ideals, he claims, he received in a vision of the Emperor Himself, shortly after the Emperor died at the hands of Horus. This officer served in the defence of the Imperial Palace on Terra before turning into a preacher, which he only did after the Emperor was already dead. I don't see the connection.

I have the distressing feeling we'll see this retconned when the heresy series finally reaches its end; indeed I foresee it turning out to be John Grammaticus, or at least connected to his plotline. Whatever happens, I'm sure we'll find out...

English Assassin wrote:I have the distressing feeling we'll see this retconned when the heresy series finally reaches its end

Possibly. Given that 40k does not really have a canon anyways, there is no need per se - and we've seen countless new takes by various outsourced products ignored in the past. Yet, the studio has at times also adopted licensee material they regarded as cool, such as with the Tanith First and Only or the Last Chancers. We'll see it when we get there, I suppose.

Lynata wrote:

English Assassin wrote:I have the distressing feeling we'll see this retconned when the heresy series finally reaches its end

Possibly. Given that 40k does not really have a canon anyways, there is no need per se - and we've seen countless new takes by various outsourced products ignored in the past. Yet, the studio has at times also adopted licensee material they regarded as cool, such as with the Tanith First and Only or the Last Chancers. We'll see it when we get there, I suppose.

Or something really tragic...like the Emperor really ends up dying, and it really is just Malcador on the Golden Throne all this time. And Guilliman really does try and create his Imperium Secundus, which probably involves more than just reorganizing the Imperium and breaking down the legions, but is forced to leave with an incomplete work.

I for one miss the days when there was a measure of ambiguity in the background; sadly, the more GW write, the less there is.

Edit: @Lynata: Despire my oft-stated hostility to 'narrative' on the tabletop when it comes at the expense of balance and meaningful competitiveness, I find myself cautiously optimistic at the recently-suggested possibility that we might see more of BL's stuff integrated to the game itself. I would rather enjoy the chance to put Commissar Cain onto the field.

English Assassin wrote:I for one miss the days when there was a measure of ambiguity in the background; sadly, the more GW write, the less there is.

Really? From my impression things have been getting more and more vague and ambiguous, compared to the days when the codices actually had some hard numbers or technical schematics in them.

Lynata wrote:

English Assassin wrote:I for one miss the days when there was a measure of ambiguity in the background; sadly, the more GW write, the less there is.

Really? From my impression things have been getting more and more vague and ambiguous, compared to the days when the codices actually had some hard numbers or technical schematics in them.

Isn't that kinda bad? It makes fluff even more open to more interpretations - at this rate, people will end up fighting over obscure bits of fluff...not that we don't do that already...

Tadashi wrote:Isn't that kinda bad? It makes fluff even more open to more interpretations - at this rate, people will end up fighting over obscure bits of fluff...not that we don't do that already...

Well, I suppose it serves to better bring studio material in line with the outsourced material, so that most conflicts would be limited between the licensed products rather than between them and GW itself.

As for the fighting - I guess it would help a lot if people would just finally get to terms with the fact that there is no such thing as a canon and that interpretation is a matter of focus. That could prevent a lot of misunderstandings and should keep people away from each others' throats, given that (essentially) "everybody is right" in some way. Any fights should be limited to specific sources.

What large parts of the community still cling to is the worst possible scenario: lots of people remaining convinced that "yes, there is a canon" - but then everybody disagrees about what it is, so nobody can produce a universally accepted proof for his argument. That stuff only works with franchises that actually enforce consistency, such as Battletech or Star Wars. Taking the approach to those franchises and applying it to Warhammer just doesn't work out.

Me, I'm a fan of detail. The more detailed, the better; it's why I find the older books so awesome.
I can sort of understand why GW moved away from that, though, as sad as it is.

Lynata wrote:

Me, I'm a fan of detail. The more detailed, the better; it's why I find the older books so awesome.
I can sort of understand why GW moved away from that, though, as sad as it is.

I agree. Detail is good, especially about 'hot' topics, like the nature of Saints, the Emperor's origins, the Blood Ravens and other Chapters 'without Primarchs', the nature of the Ethereals...and so on. I also wish they'd be less derivative of Warhammer Fantasy and carry on the feel of 3rd and 4th Editions...4th Edition, that was good.

Having some ambiguity around The Primarchs and Emperor was kind of good though. Added some mystique.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Having some ambiguity around The Primarchs and Emperor was kind of good though. Added some mystique.

Mhm, I can dig that.

It's a tricky thing. For one I appreciate the "insert your own idea here" approach that GW went for when they deliberately left some stuff open, the two unknown Legions being just one example of many, and I would never want that to change. On the other I still greatly enjoy reading about history, organisation and technical details.

I think 2E had a rather good compromise between the two. Leaving a lot of stuff in the dark, yet also delivering detailed explanations to a lot of less important (but interesting) stuff that was everyday business in M41. Like giving you some of the most important basics for the "here and now" yet still leaving the distant past untouched and for you to speculate about.

Lynata wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Having some ambiguity around The Primarchs and Emperor was kind of good though. Added some mystique.

Mhm, I can dig that.

It's a tricky thing. For one I appreciate the "insert your own idea here" approach that GW went for when they deliberately left some stuff open, the two unknown Legions being just one example of many, and I would never want that to change. On the other I still greatly enjoy reading about history, organisation and technical details.

I think 2E had a rather good compromise between the two. Leaving a lot of stuff in the dark, yet also delivering detailed explanations to a lot of less important (but interesting) stuff that was everyday business in M41. Like giving you some of the most important basics for the "here and now" yet still leaving the distant past untouched and for you to speculate about.

Yes, but I think they should actually just write what happened to the two missing Primarchs. No good fan fiction has come from that plot seed. It's hard to take seriously anyone who says the diy chapter is The Missing Legion anyway and the 31st millenium has been so fleshed out now that it's becoming ridiculus to not address it.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes, but I think they should actually just write what happened to the two missing Primarchs. No good fan fiction has come from that plot seed. It's hard to take seriously anyone who says the diy chapter is The Missing Legion anyway and the 31st millenium has been so fleshed out now that it's becoming ridiculus to not address it.

Fan-fiction quality is, of course, always in the eye of the beholder - at least the writer would like it, and for his own game that is the most important thing.

I agree about the 31st Millennium, however, at least as far as the Horus Heresy novels are concerned. When everything else is described, there's no need to stop there.
There is no need to adopt any of the novel stuff into the Codex material, though.

Lynata wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Has anyone considered that Big E may not have started as a God, but now due to the Imperial Cult is one? Emotions have power in the warp, and can form gods, just look at the 4 chaos gods. It's quite possible that Big E did assent to god hood.

Indeed.

Either that, or that the Imperial faith has "birthed" an entirely new godlike being that unintentionally took the place of the God-Emperor, perhaps even believing that it is the Emperor simply because the masses think this. Meanwhile, the Emperor's true soul watches in anger as this warp spirit starts to exert control over the Imperium, and actually does a rather good job at it, as its motifs are dominated by "public demand".

Makes sense, but why hasnt the daemon god-emperor risen yet to take command over the imperium and why havent seen any loyalist daemons yet?
Or wait, the high lords of terra could be possesed by the chaos god emperor...

Daemonhammer wrote:

Lynata wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Has anyone considered that Big E may not have started as a God, but now due to the Imperial Cult is one? Emotions have power in the warp, and can form gods, just look at the 4 chaos gods. It's quite possible that Big E did assent to god hood.

Indeed.

Either that, or that the Imperial faith has "birthed" an entirely new godlike being that unintentionally took the place of the God-Emperor, perhaps even believing that it is the Emperor simply because the masses think this. Meanwhile, the Emperor's true soul watches in anger as this warp spirit starts to exert control over the Imperium, and actually does a rather good job at it, as its motifs are dominated by "public demand".

Makes sense, but why hasnt the daemon god-emperor risen yet to take command over the imperium and why havent seen any loyalist daemons yet?
Or wait, the high lords of terra could be possesed by the chaos god emperor...

Or maybe the golden throne keeps it imprisoned... just a thought.

English Assassin wrote:Or maybe the golden throne keeps it imprisoned... just a thought.

Hmm, I remember the short story bit on the first pages of the Inquisitor RPG.
Still, that one seems geared pretty straight-forward to the "true" Emperor.

It comes down to how you interpret things. We know that the Emperor's servants receive visions. Are those the actual commands of the Emperor or is it all fake? Could well go both ways.
As for loyalist daemons - well, we did talk about Living Saints in that other thread just recently.

Lynata wrote: Are those the actual commands of the Emperor or is it all fake? Could well go both ways.

Fake, IMO.

‘If a man claimed his dead grandfather was speaking to him he’d be locked up in an asylum, but if he were to claim the voice of god was speaking to him, his fellow clerics might well make him into a saint. Clearly there is safety in numbers when it comes to hearing voices, eh?’

‘Priests,’ said the man, almost spitting the word as though its very syllables were a poison to him. ‘Then I fear you have met only the wrong kind,’ said Uriah. ‘Is there a right kind?’

‘Verona’s work was never meant for darkness,’ said the Emperor. ‘Only in the light can it achieve its full potential. Humanity is the same, and only when the suffocating shadows of a religion that teaches us not to question is gone from this world will we see its true brilliance.’

His Imperial Majesty HATES priests...he spits on the very idea of religion.

Ah yes, I knew I'd taken that idea from somewhere!

I have to say, I'm quite content for the true nature and state of the Emperor to remain mysterious; the speculation it generates - and the different possibilities for storytelling - is vastly more interesting than any concrete answer.

Old testiment christianity

Tadashi wrote:His Imperial Majesty HATES priests...he spits on the very idea of religion.

And yet he has a god-complex himself in that novel.

It was a very cool read, though. Unfortunately that priest didn't pull all the possible arguments - the kind I heard when I had a discussion like the Emperor in that story once.
The very last sentence with the clock made me shiver tho. Quite recommendable!

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:His Imperial Majesty HATES priests...he spits on the very idea of religion.

And yet he has a god-complex himself in that novel.

What did you expect from a 30,000+ year-old trans-Human? And considering all of the prophets, messiahs, etc. of Ancient Terra (in 40k, at least) were all his aliases, he would know religion is just a facade.

The very last sentence with the clock made me shiver tho. Quite recommendable!

‘Nonsense. The universe cares not a whit for our actions or us. Our fate is wrought by our own hands.’

I don't believe in pre-determined fate...and apparently, neither did the Emperor, 'Manifest Destiny' not withstanding.

TBH, I'm more concerned about this part:

The ceiling was entirely covered in a series of wide panels, each one depicting a different scene; nude figures disporting in a magical garden; an explosion of stars; a battle between a golden knight and a silver dragon; and myriad other scenes of a similarly fantastical nature.

...the central image of the fresco, that of a wondrous being of light surrounded by a halo of golden machinery.

The Garden of Eden (how that fits into 40k I have no idea)...perhaps the War in Heaven or the creation the Eye of Terror...the Emperor rising to challenge the Void Dragon...and last, and most ominous - either the Emperor, Magnus, or Malcador seated on the Golden Throne. How the painter learned of this...most ominous.

Tadashi wrote:What did you expect from a 30,000+ year-old trans-Human? And considering all of the prophets, messiahs, etc. of Ancient Terra (in 40k, at least) were all his aliases, he would know religion is just a facade.

A facade for what? Worship of an extremely powerful, superhuman, actually truly godlike entity that actually exists?
I suppose it comes down to what one considers worthy of such a title. I for one am not at all surprised people were hyping him. Not how this character was written up at least (assuming there's even an inkling of truth about the descriptions of his appearances in the studio material, and it's not all just some in-setting legend deliberately exaggerated by the author - an actual possibility, after all, given the statements of the people who wrote the stuff).

Tadashi wrote:I don't believe in pre-determined fate...and apparently, neither did the Emperor, 'Manifest Destiny' not withstanding.

I don't think the concept of a "pre-determined fate" ever meant anything in the Imperium, regardless of the era.

Tadashi wrote:The Garden of Eden (how that fits into 40k I have no idea)...perhaps the War in Heaven or the creation the Eye of Terror...the Emperor rising to challenge the Void Dragon...and last, and most ominous - either the Emperor, Magnus, or Malcador seated on the Golden Throne. How the painter learned of this...most ominous.

Psychic powers do allow visions of the future. *shrugs*
I don't think the author actually thought much about that, though. It was included to give people chills, and it works well as such.

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:What did you expect from a 30,000+ year-old trans-Human? And considering all of the prophets, messiahs, etc. of Ancient Terra (in 40k, at least) were all his aliases, he would know religion is just a facade.

A facade for what? Worship of an extremely powerful, superhuman, actually truly godlike entity that actually exists?
I suppose it comes down to what one considers worthy of such a title. I for one am not at all surprised people were hyping him. Not how this character was written up at least (assuming there's even an inkling of truth about the descriptions of his appearances in the studio material, and it's not all just some in-setting legend deliberately exaggerated by the author - an actual possibility, after all, given the statements of the people who wrote the stuff).

All the more reason for me to dislike the Ecclesiarchy - the Emperor had enough of religion twisting what he kept trying to tell people to do, so he went the other way...which would have worked in the long run, seeing as the Powers were terribly anxious the curtail the spread of the Imperial Truth.

Tadashi wrote:All the more reason for me to dislike the Ecclesiarchy - the Emperor had enough of religion twisting what he kept trying to tell people to do, so he went the other way...which would have worked in the long run, seeing as the Powers were terribly anxious the curtail the spread of the Imperial Truth.

The Emperor always was his own religion, he just didn't like a rival competing with people's hearts when it was Him who felt a divine right to lead humanity. Some might say that not calling a godlike being with a god-complex a god is nothing more but a severe case of denial, but at the very least it becomes a question of semantics.

I also do not believe in some of those novels' idea of this supposed "Imperial Truth" and its apparent effect on the Ruinous Powers. Daemons are fed by emotions, which exist whether you know of them or not, and whether you follow some religion or not.

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:All the more reason for me to dislike the Ecclesiarchy - the Emperor had enough of religion twisting what he kept trying to tell people to do, so he went the other way...which would have worked in the long run, seeing as the Powers were terribly anxious the curtail the spread of the Imperial Truth.

The Emperor always was his own religion, he just didn't like a rival competing with people's hearts when it was Him who felt a divine right to lead humanity. Some might say that not calling a godlike being with a god-complex a god is nothing more but a severe case of denial, but at the very least it becomes a question of semantics.

I also do not believe in some of those novels' idea of this supposed "Imperial Truth" and its apparent effect on the Ruinous Powers. Daemons are fed by emotions, which exist whether you know of them or not, and whether you follow some religion or not.

The Imperial Truth was a long-term plan...as opposed to emotions, which take effect almost instantly (and knowing Chaos' unpredictable nature, with nasty results), the Imperial Truth takes time to take effect but would be more useful/effective in the long run.

And while you have a point the old man didn't want a rival, I would say he didn't want to be worshipped, but rather obeyed, and with good reason, seeing as he was the only material being the Powers (who one can argue the biggest threat the galaxy has faced since the C'tan and until the arrival of the Tyranids) ever feared. Not even Eldrad, lauded by his people as the greatest of their seers, ever warranted the complete attention of the Powers.

BTW, as for my C'tan reference, ignore the newcron fluff.

Lynata wrote:As for the fighting - I guess it would help a lot if people would just finally get to terms with the fact that there is no such thing as a canon and that interpretation is a matter of focus. That could prevent a lot of misunderstandings and should keep people away from each others' throats, given that (essentially) "everybody is right" in some way. Any fights should be limited to specific sources.

What large parts of the community still cling to is the worst possible scenario: lots of people remaining convinced that "yes, there is a canon" - but then everybody disagrees about what it is, so nobody can produce a universally accepted proof for his argument. That stuff only works with franchises that actually enforce consistency, such as Battletech or Star Wars. Taking the approach to those franchises and applying it to Warhammer just doesn't work out.

Makes having a background section on forums redundant in a way as majority of the stuff is people arguing over whats right and wrong

Tadashi wrote:All the more reason for me to dislike the Ecclesiarchy - the Emperor had enough of religion twisting what he kept trying to tell people to do, so he went the other way...which would have worked in the long run, seeing as the Powers were terribly anxious the curtail the spread of the Imperial Truth.

Is this the definite case though? Or is it simply because the Chaos Gods recognised what the Emperor was attempting to achieve and didn't like losing their already established Chaos colonies and followers being wiped out? If the Emperor had not had created the Primarchs or intended to reconquer the galaxy, would they have even been interested in our speck of a planet?

Tadashi wrote:
And while you have a point the old man didn't want a rival, I would say he didn't want to be worshipped, but rather obeyed, and with good reason, seeing as he was the only material being the Powers (who one can argue the biggest threat the galaxy has faced since the C'tan and until the arrival of the Tyranids) ever feared.

Isn't that what a God wants anyway?

Tadashi wrote:The Imperial Truth was a long-term plan...as opposed to emotions, which take effect almost instantly (and knowing Chaos' unpredictable nature, with nasty results), the Imperial Truth takes time to take effect but would be more useful/effective in the long run.

Again, how does that work? What is this effect, exactly?

Tadashi wrote:And while you have a point the old man didn't want a rival, I would say he didn't want to be worshipped, but rather obeyed

I'm sure that was at least what he proclaimed. Depending on whether you take the Emperor's behaviour in that short story as accurate or not, he clearly had a conflicting subconscious need for the opposite, though. You don't strut around like King Louis XIV when you do not wish to be worshipped.

.. you know, the more I think about it, the better it fits. Maybe the Emperor really was Louis XIV once. All the signs are there!

Tadashi wrote:Not even Eldrad, lauded by his people as the greatest of their seers, ever warranted the complete attention of the Powers.

Well, unlike the humans at that time, the Eldar already were already pretty much done for.

Pilau Rice wrote:Makes having a background section on forums redundant in a way as majority of the stuff is people arguing over whats right and wrong

I guess it's all well and good if people would at least know the "rules" of the franchise - that "right" or "wrong" are usually determined by whatever source the individual posters go by.