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Pilau Rice wrote:
Is this the definite case though? Or is it simply because the Chaos Gods recognised what the Emperor was attempting to achieve and didn't like losing their already established Chaos colonies and followers being wiped out? If the Emperor had not had created the Primarchs or intended to reconquer the galaxy, would they have even been interested in our speck of a planet?

Seeing as the old man's long-term plan involved a safe acceleration of Human psychic evolution, the Imperial Truth was needed to stabilize the Warp, which the Powers would obviously never want. And next, the Emperor turning every Human into fully-realized psykers would probably filter their emotions, strangling the Powers' energy source.

Tadashi wrote:
And while you have a point the old man didn't want a rival, I would say he didn't want to be worshipped, but rather obeyed, and with good reason, seeing as he was the only material being the Powers (who one can argue the biggest threat the galaxy has faced since the C'tan and until the arrival of the Tyranids) ever feared.

Isn't that what a God wants anyway?

HE. IS. NOT. A. GOD.

Didn't he make that clear? He was a benevolent dictator, not a god-head, at least as far as he and the Great Crusade-era Imperium were concerned.

Lynata wrote:I have seen a number of names for the Imperium's religion in M41, such as Imperial Cult, or even The One True Faith. None of these are particularly "unique", but they strengthen its perception as the only valid and sanctioned religion for people to follow. Some of these names may be unique to various licensed publications, but given the comparatively disorganised nature of the Imperium this isn't of any particular concern.

Also, the Imperial Creed isn't exactly the religion itself, but rather part of the religion. I suppose you could compare it to the Ten Commandments? It's basically a set of "virtues" for Imperial citizens, defining proper attitude towards xenos, witches and heretics as well as concepts such as Mankind's divine right to rule the stars and the need for expansion.

^^ this is an excellent description of what the creed is/does.
because of how disorganized the imperium is, many worlds and systems use different term and language to describe the faith.
for example, in fenris the SW refer to the emperor as the All Father.

Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Makes having a background section on forums redundant in a way as majority of the stuff is people arguing over whats right and wrong

I guess it's all well and good if people would at least know the "rules" of the franchise - that "right" or "wrong" are usually determined by whatever source the individual posters go by.

But which one is righter or wronger

Tadashi wrote:Seeing as the old man's long-term plan involved a safe acceleration of Human psychic evolution, the Imperial Truth was needed to stabilize the Warp, which the Powers would obviously never want. And next, the Emperor turning every Human into fully-realized psykers would probably filter their emotions, strangling the Powers' energy source.

Que

Tadashi wrote:

HE. IS. NOT. A. GOD.

Didn't he make that clear? He was a benevolent dictator, not a god-head, at least as far as he and the Great Crusade-era Imperium were concerned.

Nor did I say he was, I said doesn't a God want to be obeyed?

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The Imperial Truth was a long-term plan...as opposed to emotions, which take effect almost instantly (and knowing Chaos' unpredictable nature, with nasty results), the Imperial Truth takes time to take effect but would be more useful/effective in the long run.

Again, how does that work? What is this effect, exactly?

People don't believe in the existence of gods and daemons...the Warp won't be affected as quickly, but it would eventually react in a detrimental effect, at least as far as the creatures of the Immaterium are concerned.

Tadashi wrote:And while you have a point the old man didn't want a rival, I would say he didn't want to be worshipped, but rather obeyed

I'm sure that was at least what he proclaimed. Depending on whether you take the Emperor's behaviour in that short story as accurate or not, he clearly had a conflicting subconscious need for the opposite, though. You don't strut around like King Louis XIV when you do not wish to be worshipped.

.. you know, the more I think about it, the better it fits. Maybe the Emperor really was Louis XIV once. All the signs are there!

The sight of the Emperor walking around in a powdered wig is something I'd rather not have inflicted on my imagination a second time.

He Who Stood wrote:
because of how disorganized the imperium is, many worlds and systems use different term and language to describe the faith.
for example, in fenris the SW refer to the emperor as the All Father.

Not quite...seeing as Bjorn fought alongside the old man, I would say no, they don't see him as a god.

Tadashi wrote:Seeing as the old man's long-term plan involved a safe acceleration of Human psychic evolution, the Imperial Truth was needed to stabilize the Warp, which the Powers would obviously never want. And next, the Emperor turning every Human into fully-realized psykers would probably filter their emotions, strangling the Powers' energy source.

That still isn't an explanation for how this "Imperial Truth" should have any effect on the power of daemons.

Again: the Ruinous Powers are completely unaffected by both religion or superstition. They are fed by emotions. Religion and superstition may feed emotion, just as much as they can provide stability and serenity (it is somewhat ironical how the Sisters of Battle are lauded for their resistance against daemonic corruption, I guess, given that they clearly draw it from their faith).
And even if people becoming psykers would have any effect on their emotions (how?), this too is completely independent from any religion or knowledge of daemons, and in addition has nothing to do whatsoever with this supposed Imperial Truth anyways.

The "Imperial Truth" makes sense as an effort by the Emperor to solidify his command over humanity. It does not make sense as a shield against the Ruinous Powers, and has zero effect on their power, nor would it be regarded as a threat in any way.

Tadashi wrote:HE. IS. NOT. A. GOD.
Didn't he make that clear?

Obviously not.

Tadashi wrote:People don't believe in the existence of gods and daemons...the Warp won't be affected as quickly

Now where did you get that idea?

Tadashi wrote:People don't believe in the existence of gods and daemons...the Warp won't be affected as quickly, but it would eventually react in a detrimental effect, at least as far as the creatures of the Immaterium are concerned.

People didn't initially believe in Gods in the first place, obviously I can't confirm this as I don't have my time machine fully operational yet, I am still waiting for my future self to come back in time and tell me how to get it to work, yet the Chaos Gods started to gain form. Actions and Emotions started the birth of the Gods, you would have to stop people from feeling anything to prevent this. As long as there are sentient races with warp signatures, even shrubberies and hedgehogs would have an effect in the warp if RoC is anything to go by, the denizens of the warp would be fine.

I'm sure hedgehogs RAAAAAAAAAAAAGE when their poor hedgehog wife has been squished and shrubberies love it when you pick their berries.

Lynata wrote:

Again: the Ruinous Powers are completely unaffected by both religion or superstition. They are fed by emotions. Religion and superstition may feed emotion, just as much as they can provide stability and serenity (it is somewhat ironical how the Sisters of Battle are lauded for their resistance against daemonic corruption, I guess, given that they clearly draw it from their faith).

Belief in 'disbelief' - there are instances IRL where people who live in haunted houses/places don't get affected by paranormal events because they refuse to accept its existence even when everything and everyone around them is being tormented, the old man was trying to replicate this effect across the whole Human race.

And even if people becoming psykers would have any effect on their emotions (how?), this too is completely independent from any religion or knowledge of daemons, and in addition has nothing to do whatsoever with this supposed Imperial Truth anyways.

As I said, a filtering effect. Or something like that...*shrugs*

Tadashi wrote:People don't believe in the existence of gods and daemons...the Warp won't be affected as quickly

Now where did you get that idea?

See above...

Pilau Rice wrote:

I'm sure hedgehogs RAAAAAAAAAAAAGE when their poor hedgehog wife has been squished and shrubberies love it when you pick their berries.

*raises eyebrows* SAKURA! Get my hunting rifle...and borrow old man Jenkin's chainsaw. I've got vermin to shoot, and you can 'trim' those shrubs.

Tadashi wrote:Belief in 'disbelief' - there are instances IRL where people who live in haunted houses/places don't get affected by paranormal events because they refuse to accept its existence even when everything and everyone around them is being tormented, the old man was trying to replicate this effect across the whole Human race.

Well, of course that theory only works if you believe in paranormal events in the first place. Not much of a difference to believing in gods.

But even then it would have no meaning for this setting. The "paranormal events" in 40k are not some sort of ghosts displacing furniture or whatever, but actual daemons that cross over into realspace in a physical form, capable of ripping people apart with red-blooded claws. On their homeplane, they are formed by thoughts and emotions - regardless of whether people actually believe in them or not - and I do not think you can simply "wish them away" once they have been "born". The Warp as a source of their power (as well as the source of power for psykers in general) will continue to exist, and to truly eliminate Chaos you'd have to eliminate the Warp. That is pretty much the only way, I think.

An atheist Flesh Tearer Space Marine hacking and biting through a horde of helpless civilians will feed Khorne as much as a religiously motivated cultist praying to him as his god. Actually, I'm fairly sure Khorne will find more joy in the former than the latter.

Unfortunately, Tadeshi you don't need to believe in the Chaos powers for them to exist. If so, they would be very weak indeed. Most people don't even know about them. They are fed by the emotions of races created by the Old Ones. You can't kill them with Athiesm.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Unfortunately, Tadeshi you don't need to believe in the Chaos powers for them to exist. If so, they would be very weak indeed. Most people don't even know about them. They are fed by the emotions of races created by the Old Ones. You can't kill them with Athiesm.

It might have...the Emperor was supposedly laying waste to entire areas of the Warp...what if the Powers just twisted it into the Emperor as opposed to the Imperial Truth turning large areas of the Warp into stagnant planes...nothing wrong with that IMO.

No, it wouldn't.

Where exactly are you getting that from?

Melissia wrote:No, it wouldn't.

Where exactly are you getting that from?

Horus 'vision', where the Powers were supposedly the victims of the Emperor's psychic might laying waste entire planes of reality in the Warp...more than likely, the Warp was being laid waste, but instead of the Emperor, by the Imperial Truth.

Ah, so basically you're going by the lies that Horus was being told in order to convince him to betray the Emperor.

The Imperial Truth was in effect for quite a while and if it worked like that it would have killed Chaos but it doesn't. What worship of the ruinous powers does (and even thinking about them or speaking their name) is draw their attention. By drawing the attentions of the dark gods and daemons you can get up to all kinds of evil tomfoolery like possessions and warp rifts. That was basically the kind of stuff The Emperor was trying to prevent by keeping humanity in the dark about the true nature of the warp. But it backfired big time.
Point is the big four would like your worship but they don't require it to exist.

Melissia wrote:Ah, so basically you're going by the lies that Horus was being told in order to convince him to betray the Emperor.

Not outright lies, as it turned out. Daemons do tell the truth, albeit a twisted form...instead of the Imperial Truth calming the Warp, they simply twisted it into the Emperor ravaging it.

Tadashi wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, it wouldn't.

Where exactly are you getting that from?

Horus 'vision', where the Powers were supposedly the victims of the Emperor's psychic might laying waste entire planes of reality in the Warp...more than likely, the Warp was being laid waste, but instead of the Emperor, by the Imperial Truth.

From their point of view, which is laced with lies and falsehood, yeah.

I don't think that what you are suggesting would be the case, the Dark Gods were more than likely pissed off and scared about what would happen to them if the galaxy was conquered by the Emperor. A boring eternal existence of each others company without mortal play things to entertain them.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Point is the big four would like your worship but they don't require it to exist.

Yeah, this, they also require worship to make them stronger but they would continue to exist even if it were removed.

Pilau Rice wrote:

I don't think that what you are suggesting would be the case, the Dark Gods were more than likely pissed off and scared about what would happen to them if the galaxy was conquered by the Emperor. A boring eternal existence of wach others company without mortal play things to entertain them.

That's certainly possible...they wouldn't cease to exist, but they couldn't influence mortals either because mortals refuse to believe in their existence.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

I don't think that what you are suggesting would be the case, the Dark Gods were more than likely pissed off and scared about what would happen to them if the galaxy was conquered by the Emperor. A boring eternal existence of each others company without mortal play things to entertain them.

That's certainly possible...they wouldn't cease to exist, but they couldn't influence mortals either because mortals refuse to believe in their existence.

They still could, just via the dreams of mortals, which is they how they did this when they were forming.

Honestly, you could never stop some form of intervention by the Dark Gods.

Hey, one thing I want to ask is this, this quote is from False Gods, is it an official symbol regards to the Imperial Cult?

At the top was some kind of symbol, a long capital T with a haloed star at its centre - p63

Pilau Rice wrote:

They still could, just via the dreams of mortals, which is they how they did this when they were forming.

Honestly, you could never stop some form of intervention by the Dark Gods.

Yes, but with the Imperial Truth, people would just dismiss it as dreams...and if everyone were fully-realized psykers, they probably could filter it out passively.

Hey, one thing I want to ask is this, this quote is from False Gods, is it an official symbol regards to the Imperial Cult?

At the top was some kind of symbol, a long capital T with a haloed star at its centre - p63

That can't be right...this is the emblem of the Ministorum:

Tadashi wrote:
Yes, but with the Imperial Truth, people would just dismiss it as dreams...and if everyone were fully-realized psykers, they probably could filter it out at will.

Did it work though, the Imperial Truth? They might be able to dismiss it as dreams but the seeds would have been planted, as Verbal says

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist

In 40k there are 4.

Tadashi wrote:

pilau rice wrote:
Hey, one thing I want to ask is this, this quote is from False Gods, is it an official symbol regards to the Imperial Cult?

At the top was some kind of symbol, a long capital T with a haloed star at its centre - p63

That can't be right...this is the emblem of the Ministorum:

That's what I thought..

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Yes, but with the Imperial Truth, people would just dismiss it as dreams...and if everyone were fully-realized psykers, they probably could filter it out at will.

Did it work though, the Imperial Truth? They might be able to dismiss it as dreams but the seeds would have been planted, as Verbal says

In the long term, it would have...

Tadashi wrote:

pilau rice wrote:
Hey, one thing I want to ask is this, this quote is from False Gods, is it an official symbol regards to the Imperial Cult?

At the top was some kind of symbol, a long capital T with a haloed star at its centre - p63

That can't be right...this is the emblem of the Ministorum:

That's what I thought..

You said letter T with a haloed star...that's a letter I with a haloed skull.

Tadashi wrote:

You said letter T with a haloed star...that's a letter I with a haloed skull.

I was agreeing with you, I can clearly see that the image shows an I.

Oh...I see. My apologies.

Tadashi wrote:Yes, but with the Imperial Truth, people would just dismiss it as dreams...

And that would change what, exactly?

Daemons would always be able to manifest in the physical world regardless of whether people "believe" in them or not. And daemons just influencing dreams would rarely have them appear "in person" to propose some kind of deal (as that would be a bit too obvious, wouldn't you think?) but rather planting ideas and wishes to make people want something and act in a way that fits to their plans. The "Ineception"-effect, if you will. Which is, again, completely independent of some sort of belief.

Tadashi wrote:and if everyone were fully-realized psykers, they probably could filter it out passively.

Except that psykers, due to their connection to the Warp, are especially vulnerable to being overpowered. And how would you even learn to "filter" something that you don't believe in, how would you prepare for a danger you're not aware of?

I think you're trying to justify this idea of a supposed "Imperial Truth" to be something that it wasn't meant to be.
Since I did not read those particular novels, however, I can only guess from the snippets of it that I've heard on the interwebs.

I reread the page last night and it most certainly says I, I guess the source I initially used was incorrect.

So, nice one Lorgar, the founder of the Imperial Cult

Pilau Rice wrote:I reread the page last night and it most certainly says I, I guess the source I initially used was incorrect.

So, nice one Lorgar, the founder of the Imperial Cult

All we need now is to let the Ecclesiarchy know their faith was built by one of the greatest traitors in Imperial history, and I can sit back, drink some tea, and watch as the Imperial Church burns...oh, and did I mention their leaders already knew and were just keeping it quiet...*whispers*the Vault of Origins*whispers*...sits back and drinks some more tea.

Pilau Rice wrote:So, nice one Lorgar, the founder of the Imperial Cult

The founder of the Imperial Cult, back then known as the Temple of the Saviour Emperor, was Fatidicus.

Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:So, nice one Lorgar, the founder of the Imperial Cult

The founder of the Imperial Cult, back then known as the Temple of the Saviour Emperor, was Fatidicus.

Problem is...2nd Edition might have been retconned by the Horus Heresy novels' Lectitio Divinitatus.

Tadashi wrote:Problem is...2nd Edition might have been retconned by the Horus Heresy novels' Lectitio Divinitatus.

I don't see the problem.
For starters, Black Library novels do not retcon anything. Actually, we don't even have a real continuity in this franchise to start with that could be changed retroactively.

I certainly see the possibility, but for the time being - and aside from the proposed link not even being established in the novels themselves yet, and as such being pure speculation on your part - this, like many other ideas introduced by the HH products (like the SoS), remain suspiciously absent from studio material. Religions do not require a singular origin to exist, and even in 40k there were many different cults popping up all over the Imperium after the Emperor's death, only later united under the mantle of the Ecclesiarchy, hinting at an independent development rooted in the desires of the human psyche.

Lynata wrote: The founder of the Imperial Cult, back then known as the Temple of the Saviour Emperor, was Fatidicus.

Was he now

Sounds like a lucky guy