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Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Broadly, it is. Mary Sue refers to characters that are self-inserts of the author, wish fulfillment and perfect versions of themselves. The character is written as the author would wish themselves to be.

And... the rest?

Th
Yes.....

There is no 'rest'.

You're operating under a false definition. It often happens when people try to use jargon they don't fully understand.

This might help.

So you ignore the glossary and send me a dakka post instead. cool....

Kaldor is the hero Ward deserves, but not the one he needs right now. And so we we will hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not Ward's hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. Ward's White Knight.

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Ya Im pretty sure I know what it means. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu
though I know you have the habit of " correcting" anyone that calls Draigo that....

Its ok though

If you think the Draigo character is any kind of wish-fulfillment Mary Sue, then you're way off base. Either you're reading the material wrong, or you're using the wrong definition.

Either way, you're wrong.

Implying wish-fulfillment is the ONLY trait, scroll down and read the rest.

Broadly, it is. Mary Sue refers to characters that are self-inserts of the author, wish fulfillment and perfect versions of themselves. The character is written as the author would wish themselves to be.

Though not in all cases of course. It can also relate to characters that the author favours over others; reflecting the author is merely the effect in its most basic form.

BlaxicanX wrote:Kaldor is the hero Ward deserves, but not the one he needs right now. And so we we will hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not Ward's hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. Ward's White Knight.

Shame that'll probably be deleted.

LunaHound wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Broadly, it is. Mary Sue refers to characters that are self-inserts of the author, wish fulfillment and perfect versions of themselves. The character is written as the author would wish themselves to be.

And... the rest?

Th
Yes.....

There is no 'rest'.

You're operating under a false definition. It often happens when people try to use jargon they don't fully understand.

This might help.

So you ignore the glossary and send me a dakka post instead. cool....

Yeah, because the page you linked to is only partially correct. An actual discussion on the topic is more useful.

BlaxicanX wrote:Kaldor is the hero Ward deserves, but not the one he needs right now. And so we we will hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not Ward's hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. Ward's White Knight.

^^; well.... that is actually really cleverly written. too bad it'll be deleted xD

n0t_u wrote:Though not in all cases of course. It can also relate to characters that the author favours over others; reflecting the author is merely the effect in its most basic form.

No, that's just bad cliched writing. Mary Sue is a very specific term that refers only to characters that display strong elements of self-insertion and wish-fulfillment. 'Perfect' or over the top characters are just bad characters.

Vaktathi wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
Its as if Matt Ward doesnt know how to be subtle ( Im sure he does, but is just following GW orders )
to make everything tailored towards something a 10 year old would enjoy.

This. He writes like an over-excited 12 year old slapping out a set out house rules and fan-fic after school, and that gets to people.

This is my only problem with it really.

Although, it is the 'larger than life' story, and it makes it seem like something almost comical by comparison, I think that is just the writing style he either enjoys or has been told to pursue by the sales department.

People forget that (and this was confirmed in a recent interview) that a lot of the times the codex writers have their hands tied and are pretty much directed to do something in a certain way by 'upstairs'. Are you telling me that Cruddace didn't know that the new Carnifex wasn't a major nerf compared to the previous edition? Or that Ward actively wanted the Storm Raven to be inserted in to literally every operation carried out by the Blood Angels in the history and background section?
By the same measure, if you wanted to make 'Draigo' into a concept that will become a 100% essential purchase for every 12 year-old reading the codex, what better way than having him bestriding the most inhospitable place in the galaxy (no, not going EVO without a space suit, but the warp) and carving his name onto the heart of one of the biggest bad-asses the game universe has created in the form of Mortarion? He-Man never even got close to that guy..

I would say with no uncertainty that Ward probably got an A* and a pat on the back for Draigo in terms of what he was told to accomplish with the character.

So, I think by making an 'anti-fan club' of a particular writer, you are really just shooting the messenger. I think in reality their hands are tied by HQ and the money people, who decide what kits have to sell, what ones people already have in their collection that are to be reduced in efficacy, and then the design elements come in from there.

Kaldor wrote:Yeah, because the page you linked to is only partially correct. An actual discussion on the topic is more useful.

Kaldor, when you keep repeating self-fulfillment, do you know why it is that way?

Because the ideas are so farfetched and ridiculous that the best explanation is the author's self delusion.
His illusion of grandeur transcribed into such character.

It-does-not mean Ward thinks he is Draigo

I would put TV tropes, a site dedicated to defining things such as Mary Sue far above anything that you link to on dakkadakka. Quite simply, Drago is a character that has far too few failing to be realistic in any way and honestly, that makes him a very poorly designed character. The reason he remains a Mary sue character is that he performs feats that are bordering on the impossible and comes out the other end completely fine.

Once again, the like to Tv tropes

Scroll down a bit. We see examples of 'Mary Sue as Idealized Character' and 'Mary Sue as Infallible Character'

Pacific wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
Its as if Matt Ward doesnt know how to be subtle ( Im sure he does, but is just following GW orders )
to make everything tailored towards something a 10 year old would enjoy.

This. He writes like an over-excited 12 year old slapping out a set out house rules and fan-fic after school, and that gets to people.

This is my only problem with it really.

Although, it is the 'larger than life' story, and it makes it seem like something almost comical by comparison, I think that is just the writing style he either enjoys or has been told to pursue by the sales department.

People forget that (and this was confirmed in a recent interview) that a lot of the times the codex writers have their hands tied and are pretty much directed to do something in a certain way by 'upstairs'. Are you telling me that Cruddace didn't know that the new Carnifex wasn't a major nerf compared to the previous edition? Or that Ward actively wanted the Storm Raven to be inserted in to literally every operation carried out by the Blood Angels in the history and background section?
By the same measure, if you wanted to make 'Draigo' into a concept that will become a 100% essential purchase for every 12 year-old reading the codex, what better way than having him bestriding the most inhospitable place in the galaxy (no, not going EVO without a space suit, but the warp) and carving his name onto the heart of one of the biggest bad-asses the game universe has created in the form of Mortarion? He-Man never even got close to that guy..

I would say with no uncertainty that Ward probably got an A* and a pat on the back for Draigo in terms of what he was told to accomplish with the character.

So, I think by making an 'anti-fan club' of a particular writer, you are really just shooting the messenger. I think in reality their hands are tied by HQ and the money people, who decide what kits have to sell, what ones people already have in their collection that are to be reduced in efficacy, and then the design elements come in from there.

I agree 100%. But when I want to contest an idea or concept, Its easier to do so against a symbol over a mass company.

Since we're linking TV tropes

Here's one I feel describes most of the hate for Ward's writing overall that jumped on the bandwagon.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanDumb

Since all of them (Except for cruddance's, who has the worst of the balance in 40k) has pretty bad fluff.

LunaHound wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Yeah, because the page you linked to is only partially correct. An actual discussion on the topic is more useful.

Kaldor, when you keep repeating self-fulfillment, do you know why it is that way?

Because the ideas are so farfetched and ridiculous that the best explanation is the author's self delusion.
His illusion of grandeur transcribed into such character.

It-does-not mean Ward thinks he is Draigo

Is English your second language? Your syntax is terrible.

If you mean that Draigo is the most awesome OTT character Ward could imagine, that would not make him a Mary Sue. It would make him a flat, OTT character.

Ledabot wrote:I would put TV tropes, a site dedicated to defining things such as Mary Sue far above anything that you link to on dakkadakka. Quite simply, Drago is a character that has far too few failing to be realistic in any way and honestly, that makes him a very poorly designed character. The reason he remains a Mary sue character is that he performs feats that are bordering on the impossible and comes out the other end completely fine.

Once again, the like to Tv tropes

Well Draigo did just carve his name on his heart instead of slaying him.

That arrogance is beyond the result of poorly designed character. It is deliberate,
because after all, its what 10 year olds finds... BAD ASS!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Yeah, because the page you linked to is only partially correct. An actual discussion on the topic is more useful.

Kaldor, when you keep repeating self-fulfillment, do you know why it is that way?

Because the ideas are so farfetched and ridiculous that the best explanation is the author's self delusion.
His illusion of grandeur transcribed into such character.

It-does-not mean Ward thinks he is Draigo

Is English your second language? Your syntax is terrible.

If you mean that Draigo is the most awesome OTT character Ward could imagine, that would not make him a Mary Sue. It would make him a flat, OTT character.

Aww I think you hurt my feelings.

Well yes infact english is my 2nd language, infact i speak lots of languages besides english
that and I dont really care about my grammar late at night :3
I do apologize as far as me feeling bad you have to read the bit of messy posts.
But Im not apologizing you nit picking about it, smells aaaa little desperate as im confident the mess I wrote
can convey what I want to say anyways!

Kaldor wrote:

n0t_u wrote:Though not in all cases of course. It can also relate to characters that the author favours over others; reflecting the author is merely the effect in its most basic form.

No, that's just bad cliched writing. Mary Sue is a very specific term that refers only to characters that display strong elements of self-insertion and wish-fulfillment. 'Perfect' or over the top characters are just bad characters.

So I take it you're an expert on this subject? Using OT as a source clearly shows as much.

If you must reiterate your findings from a brief Wikipedia search, at least do so in its entirety and refrain from reading only the opening sentence.

A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. It is generally accepted as a character whose positive aspects overwhelm their other traits until they become one-dimensional. While the label "Mary Sue" itself originates from a parody of this type of character, most characters labelled "Mary Sues" by readers are not intended by authors as such. Male Mary Sues are often dubbed "Gary Stu", "Larry Stu", "Marty Stu", or similar names.
While the term is generally limited to fan-created characters, and its most common usage today occurs within the fan fiction community or in reference to fan fiction, original characters in role-playing games or literary canon are also sometimes criticized as being "Mary Sues" or "canon Sues" if they dominate the spotlight or are too unrealistic or unlikely in other ways. One example of this criticism is Wesley Crusher from Star Trek: The Next Generation.

It is a kin to epic, troll, fail, etc. Its meaning varies greatly due to its over and somewhat improper use; morphing and corrupting it over time. An author character (Self insertion ie. what you're assuming and confusing Mary Sue with here) is another technique entirely which can actually work quite decently. It doesn't need to be some extremely powerful character. I bothered to link the Wikipedia article there merely to save time stating when it has worked as it has some notable examples in there for you to enjoy.

Well Draigo did just carve his name on his heart instead of slaying him.

That arrogance is beyond the result of poorly designed character. It is deliberate,
because after all, its what 10 year olds finds... BAD ASS!!

He was a Daemon Prince, if he slayed him he'd just revive in the warp regardless. He carved the name there just so he'd remember.

And no, it wasn't his name, it was the FORMER SUPREME GRANDMASTERS NAME. Geronitan That Mortarion had killed before.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Well Draigo did just carve his name on his heart instead of slaying him.

That arrogance is beyond the result of poorly designed character. It is deliberate,
because after all, its what 10 year olds finds... BAD ASS!!

He was a Daemon Prince, if he slayed him he'd just revive in the warp regardless. He carved the name there just so he'd remember.

Well the Daemon Prince should remember him either way.
Its not like they cant revive from an obliterated flesh, so yes its to do with mental insult.
But the arrogance Im talking about is, if the prince is destroyed, it'll take some time to recover...
Might buy some time and spare some lives if the return is "delayed".

Well the Daemon Prince should remember him either way.
Its not like they cant revive from an obliterated flesh, so yes its to do with mental insult.
But the arrogance Im talking about is, if the prince is destroyed, it'll take some time to recover...
Might buy some time and spare some lives if the return is "delayed".

At the time it said he escaped, and he literally carved Geronitan (Everyone seems to think Draigo carved his own name there, stop parroting this already) into the heart, with his own sword, I would think that would kill him regardless. Maybe he thought so to just to leave it with him into the warp since he was carving up the heart anyways, what does it take to kill a Daemon Primarch if carving that long name into their heart won't?

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Well the Daemon Prince should remember him either way.
Its not like they cant revive from an obliterated flesh, so yes its to do with mental insult.
But the arrogance Im talking about is, if the prince is destroyed, it'll take some time to recover...
Might buy some time and spare some lives if the return is "delayed".

At the time it said he escaped, and he literally carved Geronitan (Everyone seems to think Draigo carved his own name there, stop parroting this already) into the heart, with his own sword, I would think that would kill him regardless. Maybe he thought so to just to leave it with him into the warp since he was carving up the heart anyways, what does it take to kill a Daemon Primarch if carving that long name into their heart won't?

You are right, he carved his predecessor's name for revenge and humiliating Mortarion.
But the plot device is still the same, serving the same purpose.

LunaHound wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Well the Daemon Prince should remember him either way.
Its not like they cant revive from an obliterated flesh, so yes its to do with mental insult.
But the arrogance Im talking about is, if the prince is destroyed, it'll take some time to recover...
Might buy some time and spare some lives if the return is "delayed".

At the time it said he escaped, and he literally carved Geronitan (Everyone seems to think Draigo carved his own name there, stop parroting this already) into the heart, with his own sword, I would think that would kill him regardless. Maybe he thought so to just to leave it with him into the warp since he was carving up the heart anyways, what does it take to kill a Daemon Primarch if carving that long name into their heart won't?

You are right, he carved his predecessor's name for revenge and humiliating Mortarion.
But the plot device is still the same, serving the same purpose.

Plot device? Though it did state he had to return to the warp to recover, so it did delay his return and spared lives as he was forced back to recover.

I was under the impression ( possibly false ) that
a Mortarion would take even longer to recover if his physical body was obliterated (thoroughly) instead of some emo cuts on his heart xD

Actually Mat Ward got his bad reputation when he singlehandedly shot down competitive play in Warhammer Fantasy 7th edition by writing a super-imbalanced Daemons of Chaos armybook (there were threads desperately trying to make not-overpowered lists with that book). That was before he wrote any Codex. He then wrote the 8th edition Fantasy rules, making competitive play night impossible for ALL factions. And yes, his background texts look like he read too many He-Man comics.

Oh, and there ARE Phil Kelly and Robin Cruddace hate clubs.

Kroothawk wrote:Actually Mat Ward got his bad reputation when he singlehandedly shot down competitive play in Warhammer Fantasy 7th edition by writing a super-imbalanced Daemons of Chaos armybook (there were threads desperately trying to make not-overpowered lists with that book). That was before he wrote any Codex. He then wrote the 8th edition Fantasy rules, making competitive play night impossible for ALL factions. And yes, his background texts look like he read too many He-Man comics.

Oh, and there ARE Phil Kelly and Robin Cruddace hate clubs.

He wrote War of the Ring before he wrote 7th edition Daemons (If I remember right), and honestly 7th edition fantasy was horrible before than regardless thanks to Gav thorpe's Dark Elves, and Vampire Counts, not to mention Skaven as well. If there's one thing that hurts is that he actually fixed up the magic phase so you couldn't overpower the enemy with 15-25+ magic dice per magic phase thrown at you. Is there a few OP spells in the lores in 8th? Yes, and they are annoying, but workable.

7th edition Daemons..Yeah, horrible, completely horrible, and by that I mean it was potentially the worst thing anyone has ever seen and I hope to god someone is smacked before this level of play is introduced back into fantasy ever again.

Not to mention 8th is doing quite well and balanced, though there are a few issues with a few 7th edition dex's, with the current codex's being done there hasn't been a truly OP 8th edition dex yet. Though I am sad to see all the unique items being toned down per book.

n0t_u wrote:[rimarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader.

It is not a catch-all phrase to be used for any cliched or flat character. It refers to a specific instance, a specific type of character, that Draigo clearly is not.

You didn't even read my post, did you? Just the parts you wanted to work for you. Merely skimming it at most.

For one I haven't even mentioned Draigo until this sentence mentioning that I hadn't.

Please don't waste my time. -.-

Edit: And this is why I don't like to argue much and mostly avoid it, can't help but make myself sort of look like an ass when I do.

n0t_u wrote:You didn't even read my post, did you? Just the parts you wanted to work for you. Merely skimming it at most.

For one I haven't even mentioned Draigo until this sentence mentioning that I hadn't.

Please don't waste my time. -.-

No, I read it. Not all of it was worth quoting though, and not all of it is correct. It states "primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader" and then goes on to claim some characters are criticised as being Mary Sue simply through hogging the spotlight or being too unrealistic in other ways.

Those criticisms are incorrect. A Mary Sue character is wish-fulfillment, not just any character someone doesn't like, not just any character that is unrealistic. And I mentioned Draigo, because the entire reason this was being debated was because of a reference to him being a mary sue.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Well the Daemon Prince should remember him either way.
Its not like they cant revive from an obliterated flesh, so yes its to do with mental insult.
But the arrogance Im talking about is, if the prince is destroyed, it'll take some time to recover...
Might buy some time and spare some lives if the return is "delayed".

At the time it said he escaped, and he literally carved Geronitan (Everyone seems to think Draigo carved his own name there, stop parroting this already) into the heart, with his own sword, I would think that would kill him regardless. Maybe he thought so to just to leave it with him into the warp since he was carving up the heart anyways, what does it take to kill a Daemon Primarch if carving that long name into their heart won't?

You are right, he carved his predecessor's name for revenge and humiliating Mortarion.
But the plot device is still the same, serving the same purpose.

Plot device? Though it did state he had to return to the warp to recover, so it did delay his return and spared lives as he was forced back to recover.

Yet you're missing the proverbial elephant in the room that Ward pissed all over the background further with this story by simply have Morty be on the offensive. It is well established Morty has NEVER left the plague planet in the EoT, preferring to remodel it to look like Barabus it is due to this sentimentality that gives Typhus his whole raison d'etre.

So, either Typhus has no reason to exist anymore or the GK's fought their way into the EoT and were on the plague planet. Which one was it Ward?

Grimtuff wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Well the Daemon Prince should remember him either way.
Its not like they cant revive from an obliterated flesh, so yes its to do with mental insult.
But the arrogance Im talking about is, if the prince is destroyed, it'll take some time to recover...
Might buy some time and spare some lives if the return is "delayed".

At the time it said he escaped, and he literally carved Geronitan (Everyone seems to think Draigo carved his own name there, stop parroting this already) into the heart, with his own sword, I would think that would kill him regardless. Maybe he thought so to just to leave it with him into the warp since he was carving up the heart anyways, what does it take to kill a Daemon Primarch if carving that long name into their heart won't?

You are right, he carved his predecessor's name for revenge and humiliating Mortarion.
But the plot device is still the same, serving the same purpose.

Plot device? Though it did state he had to return to the warp to recover, so it did delay his return and spared lives as he was forced back to recover.

Yet you're missing the proverbial elephant in the room that Ward pissed all over the background further with this story by simply have Morty be on the offensive. It is well established Morty has NEVER left the plague planet in the EoT, preferring to remodel it to look like Barabus it is due to this sentimentality that gives Typhus his whole raison d'etre.

So, either Typhus has no reason to exist anymore or the GK's fought their way into the EoT and were on the plague planet. Which one was it Ward?

I'm sorry, but where are you getting this info? The plague planet is one of the closest planets to reality and is actually an excellent staging ground for attacks on reality, it was pretty much a focal point for where the plagued marines could come, join the deathguard, and than stage plague attacks everywhere else.

The reason Typhus left (3rd edition) was because at the time all Mortrarian wanted to do was shape the planet into an exact replica of barbarus, and Typhus was upset that he wasn't doing anything at the time besides shaping it up, with a few captains and those who were disgusted that Mort had a loyalty to his homeworld, rather than full devotion to Nurgle as they wanted. So they left.

There is nothing in the fluff stating that after he was done shaping up his planet to how he felt like it should be, that he would never leave it. The problem was Typhus and his crew hated that he had a devotion to it. The Death Guard there still travel out to infect other worlds with plague, so it's quite viable that he would travel with them at times.

LunaHound wrote:It-does-not mean Ward thinks he is Draigo

What if Draigo's original name was Matteo Wardus and GW told Ward to change it?

Kaldor wrote:

n0t_u wrote:[rimarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader.

It is not a catch-all phrase to be used for any cliched or flat character. It refers to a specific instance, a specific type of character, that Draigo clearly is not.

Note that while that specific kind of Mary Sueism doesn't apply to Draigo, others do. New powers never seen before, simply to underline how awesome he is (surviving in the warp without any form of shielding besides his own powers), check. Ridiculously skilled, even compared to other Grey Knights (beats down Mortarion single handedly), check. No obvious personality besides probably being annoyed at Mortarion for killing his mentor, check. Totally incorruptible, check.

Of course, Mary Sue or not, he remains a fairly bland character, since we know next to nothing about him besides the over the top description we got. Which is acually my only problem with Ward; he uses far too much hyperbole. Everyone doesn't have to be the absolute pinnacle of their field, especially when you're claiming that there's a being who is better at scheming than the god of scheming.

From what ive heard, he seems to be taking warp dust. and a lot of it.