Matt Ward.

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**Ratius**

My concern is that Draigo might well represent another step in a 'paradigm shift' of 40k. Away from the dark, gritty but also sometimes humourous galaxy that makes it so distinct, and towards more of 'action-hollywood' and a more child-friendly, simple story of good vs. evil and people doing 'cool stuff'. And in this way I don't rest the criticism of Draigo entirely on Matt Ward- he commented himself that the sales department often dictates what directions the rules take, and I think it is quite obvious here that the creative control of codex design with regards to writing and background is also being unduly influenced.

Thats an interesting premise.
Im not sure though that one or two (or three) isolated examples of *insert word here* (silly?) fluff back that up.
I can see where your concen is coming from though.

Having said that I thought the DE fluff was pretty bad (and that was PK writing it) and I've read fluff since 2nd ed. And the Draigo, bloodtide stuff pretty ok tbh. Thought the Nid codex fluff by Cruddace was quite good too (rules less so!).
I suppose I agree with what you also said, that some fluff sits well with some people and not with others.
Its really subjective though but as long as the fluff and Codex writers dont have a book filled with crazy, OTT and totally contradictory stuff we'll get by imho.

**Kaldor**

Pacific wrote:Kaldor, I'm glad you have found some enjoyment in the background of Draigo. Obviously it has struck a chime with you in some way (and I'm not criticizing that at all - what tickles our fancy, what we take from fictional background pieces, is different for all of us), but please acknowledge at the same time there are elements of the story that an overwhelming majority have not found to their taste.

Perhaps I am advocating closing the thread? I do think that we are going around in circles here, and that either side (read: Kaldor, vs. the assorted minions of the warp ) are most likely not going to have their opinions changed.

I absolutely agree, but I find that most people in the anti-Draigo or anti-Ward camp (and it's especially evident on threads like this) are just band-wagoning without having really applied any critical thought to it. Not everyone, some people have really valid concerns, but a lot of people just spew hyperbolic rubbish and repeat their opinion over and over. For a lot of people, the argument never gets beyond "It's crap because it's crap!" and those people get on my tits.

Vaktathi wrote:
Kaldor wrote:
Wait, what do you think happened? Draigo 'killed' Mortartion, banishing him back to the warp, and then desecrated his remains by carving up his heart. Did you really think he held down a struggling Daemon Primarch and scribbled on his still beating heart?
That's pretty much what it made it sound like yeah, you don't banish a daemon back to the warp and then have a big pile of Primarch remains.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what you get... I mean, sure they dissolve after a while, but the novels and models are full of examples of Daemonic remains. Blood, bodies, etc, being strewn across the battlefield. The Grey Knight models even have Daemon bits in their hands and on their bases. It's not like they just evaporate into smoke the moment you land a killing blow.

**Noisy_Marine**

Supposedly they do vanish back into the warp, but maybe it is not instantaneous. I'm still not sure why a GK would want a demon head though. I attribute that model to the Rule of Cool.

**LunaHound**

Kaldor wrote:I absolutely agree, but I find that most people in the anti-Draigo or anti-Ward camp (and it's especially evident on threads like this) are just band-wagoning without having really applied any critical thought to it. .

I think you are pretty wrong on this kaldor. What you call "hyperbolic" retorts for situations like spiderman comic, is just that.
People have been telling you the Draigo fluff is written for like 8 year olds ( like He-Man, like power ranger, like this like that ) they all felt the same way as Pacific did.

The only reason it finally sank in was, Pacific's god like patience in explaining for the past... how many pages?

**Kaldor**

LunaHound wrote:
Kaldor wrote:I absolutely agree, but I find that most people in the anti-Draigo or anti-Ward camp (and it's especially evident on threads like this) are just band-wagoning without having really applied any critical thought to it. .

I think you are pretty wrong on this kaldor. What you call "hyperbolic" retorts for situations like spiderman comic, is just that.
People have been telling you the Draigo fluff is written for like 8 year olds ( like He-Man, like power ranger, like this like that ) they all felt the same way as Pacific did.

The only reason it finally sank in was, Pacific's god like patience in explaining for the past... how many pages?

Look, I can't be bothered trawling through the last dozen pages, but this thread is full of pointless hyperbole. "It's literally the worst thing ever written, it's like someone vomited words on the page, blah blah blah." And further, if you don't back it up with some critical analysis, saying "it's written for 8 year olds" is just code for "I don't like it". Which is fine, but when you're trying to describe to someone why a thing is bad, you need to try harder than that.

**LunaHound**

Kaldor wrote:
LunaHound wrote:
Kaldor wrote:I absolutely agree, but I find that most people in the anti-Draigo or anti-Ward camp (and it's especially evident on threads like this) are just band-wagoning without having really applied any critical thought to it. .

I think you are pretty wrong on this kaldor. What you call "hyperbolic" retorts for situations like spiderman comic, is just that.
People have been telling you the Draigo fluff is written for like 8 year olds ( like He-Man, like power ranger, like this like that ) they all felt the same way as Pacific did.

The only reason it finally sank in was, Pacific's god like patience in explaining for the past... how many pages?

Look, I can't be bothered trawling through the last dozen pages, but this thread is full of pointless hyperbole. "It's literally the worst thing ever written, it's like someone vomited words on the page, blah blah blah." And further, if you don't back it up with some critical analysis, saying "it's written for 8 year olds" is just code for "I don't like it". Which is fine, but when you're trying to describe to someone why a thing is bad, you need to try harder than that.

See the part highlighted -_- yes I shouldnt bother

**Kaldor**

LunaHound wrote:See the part highlighted -_- yes I shouldnt bother

I don't mean to be rude, I think it's the language barrier, but I often have a hard time trying to figure out what you're saying with your posts.

Do you mean you believe me on the hyperbole thing, and won't bother checking?

Or that you don't believe me, and there's no need to check because you're confident you won't find any?

Or that you just don't care, and so won't look? In which case, what was the point of your last two posts?

**Omegus**

Do Daemon Princes of Khorne even have balls? And would an Ork even know what they were if it saw some?

Anyway, Orks can become big and powerful enough to fight the Emperor, and epic-level Space Marines defeat Princes not on an irregular basis. You could argue Draigo falls alongside this, but utterly humiliating a Daemon Primarch? The setting is known for over-the-top, but Ward takes it to another level. He stretches the rule of cool until it breaks.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Omegus wrote:Do Daemon Princes of Khorne even have balls? And would an Ork even know what they were if it saw some?

Anyway, Orks can become big and powerful enough to fight the Emperor, and epic-level Space Marines defeat Princes not on an irregular basis. You could argue Draigo falls alongside this, but utterly humiliating a Daemon Primarch? The setting is known for over-the-top, but Ward takes it to another level. He stretches the rule of cool until it breaks.

Not really, a Grey Knight fighting a Daemon is like some bloke fighting a vampire by stabbing a silver crucifix that radiates sunlight and is drenched in a mixture of garlic and holy water into the vampire's heart. That's what they're supposed to do, it's why they exist. And, again, he'd just killed off the previous GKSGM who was probably just as powerful as Draigo.

**Kaldor**

Omegus wrote:utterly humiliating a Daemon Primarch?

All he did was banish him. No more humiliating than any other time a Daemon Primarch is defeated.

**SagesStone**

The wound likely healed as well, I doubt the name would be stuck there permanently.

**Pacific**

Kaldor wrote:

Look, I can't be bothered trawling through the last dozen pages, but this thread is full of pointless hyperbole. "It's literally the worst thing ever written, it's like someone vomited words on the page, blah blah blah." And further, if you don't back it up with some critical analysis, saying "it's written for 8 year olds" is just code for "I don't like it". Which is fine, but when you're trying to describe to someone why a thing is bad, you need to try harder than that.

Yes I know things have been just going round in circles. If it means anything, I have tried to explain the reasons why I don't think the Draigo background works. But, I guess ultimately it's a personal thing. And if we all thought the same about things, hey wouldn't the world be a boring place.

I would thoroughly recommend looking up Aaron Dembski-Bowden's write-up (I think on his blog - I had a quick look but unfortunately couldn't find it), where he wrote 2 or 3 articles about the 40k universe. It explains far more eloquently than I can about the 'character' of that universe, and the difficulty but also importance of trying to write characters that fit into it.

**LunaHound**

Kaldor wrote:
Omegus wrote:utterly humiliating a Daemon Primarch?

All he did was banish him. No more humiliating than any other time a Daemon Primarch is defeated.

And conveniently leaving out the name carving part?

**A Town Called Malus**

I really don't see how anyone could claim that Draigo isn't a terrible character from a literary view. He has no flaws at all.

Would it have been too uch to maybe have Draigo have an arrogant streak? Or maybe a short temper? Leaving a toilet seat up once?

Ward can't write good characters. Or at least he can't write them when it comes to his precious Space Marines as he can't possibly fathom that they could be bad in some way.

**Kaldor**

Pacific wrote:
Yes I know things have been just going round in circles. If it means anything, I have tried to explain the reasons why I don't think the Draigo background works. But, I guess ultimately it's a personal thing. And if we all thought the same about things, hey wouldn't the world be a boring place.

lol very true!

You're what I like to think of as an example of 'fair' Ward-hate. You've looked at the subject matter, applied some rational and critical thought, and decided you don't like it. Fair enough, it's not going to float everyone's boat. It's just the band-wagoners that rustle my jimmies.

[quote 466293 4666899 a7bd2c219055ac10e2d72496f9c88e93.jpg]I would thoroughly recommend looking up Aaron Dembski-Bowden's write-up (I think on his blog - I had a quick look but unfortunately couldn't find it), where he wrote 2 or 3 articles about the 40k universe. It explains far more eloquently than I can about the 'character' of that universe, and the difficulty but also importance of trying to write characters that fit into it.

**Noisy_Marine**

This thread needs to die. It isn't going anywhere good.

**A Town Called Malus**

Except other writers do manage to convey negative aspects of their characters in the limited space available. The writers who made Farsight put across that he was a bitter, angry militarist as well as being a tactical genius (though not quite good enough to defeat an entire Ork Waagh! with a single Tau Cadre) and charismatic leader.

They managed this in 4 paragraphs taking up just over half a page. Draigos fluff is one and a half pages long.

Lack of space is obviously not an excuse.

**LunaHound**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Lack of space is obviously not an excuse.

It was just an selective reasoning :3

**Kaldor**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Lack of space is obviously not an excuse.

Oh don't be ridiculous. None of the characters, as presented in the codexes, are well rounded. Because they're not supposed to be. There isn't the time (nor is a Codex the place) to flesh out characters.

**A Town Called Malus**

Kaldor wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Lack of space is obviously not an excuse.

Oh don't be ridiculous. None of the characters, as presented in the codexes, are well rounded. Because they're not supposed to be. There isn't the time (nor is a Codex the place) to flesh out characters.

Then have no fluff in the codices at all and just release rules. In fact get rid of all the story in the entire game. If the codices which describe the characters are not the place to flesh out the characters then what are the places for this?

If you can't be bothered to make a decent, well-written character then you might as well not have any background at all and just have lists of stats and special rules.

**Kaldor**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
If you can't be bothered to make a decent, well-written character then you might as well not have any background at all and just have lists of stats and special rules.

Characters as described in codexes are, almost without exception, simple caricatures. The space in the codex reserved for background material needs to be stretched over a myriad of topics, and it's more important to deliver the background material of the faction as a whole, than spend several pages going over a single special characters relationship with his father, or otherwise rounding him out as a believable character. The description of a character in a codex has more in common with a highlight reel from an action movie, than a detailed biography, and that's the way it should be.

Removing all background material would be cutting off your nose to spite your face, but I doubt you were actually serious.

**azazel the cat**

A Town Called Malus wrote:I really don't see how anyone could claim that Draigo isn't a terrible character from a literary view. He has no flaws at all.

Would it have been too uch to maybe have Draigo have an arrogant streak? Or maybe a short temper? Leaving a toilet seat up once?

Ward can't write good characters. Or at least he can't write them when it comes to his precious Space Marines as he can't possibly fathom that they could be bad in some way.

The characters that Mat Ward wrote in the Necron codex are reasonably well written. The letter from Trazyn the Infinite to some Inquisitor is the best piece of fluff I've ever read in the 40k universe. It's clever, and it denotes him as being both treacherous and arrogant.

However, I have noticed that, IMO, many of the Space Marine characters that Mat Ward has written have basically been Poochie. I've noticed that Draigo, in particular, appears to fulfill this role so firmly that he has become the Scrappy of the 40k universe.

**ZebioLizard2**

However, I have noticed that, IMO, many of the Space Marine characters that Mat Ward has written have basically been Poochie. I've noticed that Draigo, in particular, appears to fulfill this role so firmly that he has become the Scrappy of the 40k universe.

Incidentally, Scrappy wasn't hated until a very vocal fanbase began spreading..Just like the Mat Ward haters and Draigo started with /TG/ on 4Chan. So long ago

http://www.povonline.com/scrappydays/scrappy01.htm

**Pacific**

I see the possibilities for a new meme, or at least a new nick-name for Draigo!

You read it here on Dakka first..

**A Town Called Malus**

I dunno. Scrappy seems to be a more interesting character than Draigo...

**Eldercaveman**

Does anyone else think that fluff needs to be taken as propaganda more than gospel?

**Nagashek**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Nagashek wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Omegus wrote:2. His mentality towards writing rules does not at all consider balance, but rather how he feels about the army (I don't like Orcs and Gobbos, so their book sucks. Daemons are DAEMONS!!1!!, so they should be unbeatable. For people saying Space Marines is balanced, when it first came out it was certainly the top-tier cheese with Vulkan in every army list).

Well, to be fair every book is cheese for the first few weeks - it's just the basic laws of wargaming! (heck, even 7th ed Orcs&Gobbos were "cheese" for the first 5 days! )

C:SM's overall is pretty balanced with the exception of a couple standout combos. (Vulkan = king of 5th due to his meltagun buffs, Lysander + Sternguard = horrible things, etc...)
BA's however are everything codex marines are but +1.
GK's are basically the best of every marine codex +10!
Newcrons are just disgusting right now.
Wood Elves in 6th were hienous, awful things with forest-surfing Treemen & Waywatchers doing nasty things to everyone.
Daemons broke 7th edition entirely. (even DE's & Sakven couldn't compete! )
7th ed O&G's just sucked the big one...
WotR is unplayable if one player wants to roflstomp

So out of 8 total 'army' projects, 1 is well balanced, 1 sucked to the point of being nearly un-winnable, and the rest are all either OTT or outright broken as feth!

lolwut?

I can basically agree with everything here, but... WE? Broken? Not even in 6th, man. Not even when that book came out. Not by a long sight. And they certainly didn't weather the transition to 7th well, to say NOTHING of 8th. One can make an incredible argument that WE took 8th ed the hardest of all books, if one didn't count the distance the army in question fell in power. WE went from being 3rd tier to being the bottom of it. VC went from being in the top 3 armies of 7th to one of the bottom 3 of 8th until the new book came out. Demons took nearly every change of 8th ed and laughed it off, as none of the things that affected VC touched them. Even DE took a hit from the step up rules, variable charges, and loss of charge blocking. Necrons went from somewhat balanced in 5th to wtf in 6th, Grey Knights appear largely untouched. Ward books (the REAL ones) don't "suffer" from new editions.

This is the first I've heard that MW wrote the Wood Elves, but I assure you it was never a broken book, even on release. It was a manuver army in a manuver game that had a tourney system that rewarded crushing victories to the near exclusion of all other results. A good WE player might win every game in a tourney in 6th, but still not place in the top 3 (or even 10) because they could never muster the murder levels demanded to do so.

WE's were never, ever about tabling the other guy - they're the guys who just hit-and-run all game long like forest ninjas and do decent damage while taking little to none in return. 'Ard Boyz and tournaments in general are not Warhammer, rather it's taking an inherently unbalanced game and trying to utterly break it.
WE's in 6th, when used by a good player were the worst possible army to fight. Nothing but dryads, waywatchers, treemen & wildriders suplimented by hero-level wizards who'd tree sing them everywhere. You'd never get a charge off, and you'd spend the entire game chasing your tail due to how the movement rules worked.

Sure, WE's got pretty pants come 7th, and 8th is absolutely no place for them in their current incarnation. But in 6th, they were one of the dirtiest armies around when you ran into their power lists!

My VC in 6th, even as underpowered as they were viewed at the time in the tourney scene never had problems with 6th WE. Tree singing can be shut down, and easily. While they're trying to move the few trees they have on the board, I'm using magic to catch right back up again or surround them with zombies. WOC would shut down the magic with tzeentch or flame the flammable units. Empire and dwarves could outshoot them AND shut down the magic with scrolls or free dispell dice (or both) and LM had scarier magic. Good player vs bad player: winner. Good player vs Good player? A tossup at best. That is hardly "OP" and certainly no where near even BloodAngels level of playability, let alone GK or WHF DoC levels of CRAZY.

And to the person who doesn't buy Vect's little "gift," really? That's what sticks in your craw, hunh? A race that has been known to be manipulating stars for millions of years using singularities and dark matter in their HAND WEAPONS giving one to an enemy in a box strikes you as off? Next thing you know you'll be bothered by aliens transporting their consciousnesses into machine bodies...

**Foolamancer**

Kaldor wrote:
Characters as described in codexes are, almost without exception, simple caricatures.

Which is true enough, and that's all well and good, but even caricatures can be interesting, and usually give at least some insight into who the character actually is (the above example of one of the Necron characters, for example). Draigo's... isn't, and doesn't. It gives you nothing about who he actually is, other than "Grey Knight who is more awesome than everyone else in the Imperium combined". It gives no explanation for why he exists. Draigo is, and that's all the explanation we get.

Sorry, but Kaldor Draigo is not Darkseid. We need more explanation than that for how a single Grey Knight can do all of this. It's absolutely ridiculous, and the sheer stupidity of it is only compounded when we realize that we don't get any insight into Draigo's character, either. Even in-universe, Draigo is essentially nothing but a stat line, with his defining characteristic being that his numbers are the biggest and he will smack you with them.

**gaovinni**

Eldercaveman wrote:
Does anyone else think that fluff needs to be taken as propaganda more than gospel?

Imperial fluff at the very least.

**ZebioLizard2**

gaovinni wrote:
Eldercaveman wrote:
Does anyone else think that fluff needs to be taken as propaganda more than gospel?

Imperial fluff at the very least.

All fluff, some of the stuff is from the Imperial point of view on some of them.