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*insert all Necron units besides LG and maybe Praetorians*

Swooping Hawks. Well they couldn't get much worse really, plus they all have haywire, which is much more useful now that it strips hull points. And they get hammer of wrath attacks, which won't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of combat as they'll still get squished but at least they get something.

Rampage wrote:Swooping Hawks. Well they couldn't get much worse really, plus they all have haywire, which is much more useful now that it strips hull points. And they get hammer of wrath attacks, which won't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of combat as they'll still get squished but at least they get something.

But even so they are still not worth their point unless the enemy brings Monoliths or Land Raiders.

Mahtamori wrote:

Rampage wrote:Swooping Hawks. Well they couldn't get much worse really, plus they all have haywire, which is much more useful now that it strips hull points. And they get hammer of wrath attacks, which won't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of combat as they'll still get squished but at least they get something.

But even so they are still not worth their point unless the enemy brings Monoliths or Land Raiders.

True, but they are a unit that got better in 6th edition. Not so much better to make them a decent unit, but better. I used them in 5th for the fun Eldar army I run, I'm going to keep on running them.

What actually COUNTS as Artillery? According to the 6th Ed book Basilisks are not counted as Artillery. Infact i could only spot "big gunz" as artillery.

Hoppkins wrote:What actually COUNTS as Artillery? According to the 6th Ed book Basilisks are not counted as Artillery. Infact i could only spot "big gunz" as artillery.

Eldar Support Weapons. Not a whole lot, no. Need crew and gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rampage wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:

Rampage wrote:Swooping Hawks. Well they couldn't get much worse really, plus they all have haywire, which is much more useful now that it strips hull points. And they get hammer of wrath attacks, which won't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of combat as they'll still get squished but at least they get something.

But even so they are still not worth their point unless the enemy brings Monoliths or Land Raiders.

True, but they are a unit that got better in 6th edition. Not so much better to make them a decent unit, but better. I used them in 5th for the fun Eldar army I run, I'm going to keep on running them.

Like I wrote earlier, anything with a gun got better. The list of what got better is not interesting, it's what got proportionally great.

Chaos Spawn!
...no, I'm not kidding. They're now a viable tarpit unit, considering their multiple wounds and low low cost.

Super Ready wrote:Chaos Spawn!
...no, I'm not kidding. They're now a viable tarpit unit, considering their multiple wounds and low low cost.

WS3, T5, no save with 3 wounds That can be instantly killed by a stray railgun shot.

Costs a little less than 2 beserkers, who actually do damage, have a decent save, do S5 on the charge, can have power weapon attacks, have a transport option, and have krak grenades for when their weapons aren't usable.


Chaos spawn still aren't decent. Take plague marines who are now better, heck take noise marines, they are fearless as well and two are the same price, they'll actually hold just as well.

Vaktathi wrote:
Even with the slight boost to rapid fire and reduction in cover saves, few will find Stormtroopers worthwhile in 6E. They still trade casualties at an even rate with MEQ's when in range, but are outranged by bolters, and in every other respect are inferior.

If they trade evenly with astartes using their HSLG than they are clearly useful, especially when you consider that they are
A) More mobile since they can deepstrike, scout, or infiltrate.
B) Can take another special weapon over Astartes.

Granted vets are so much better that they are only taken for fluff or coolness reasons.

The removal of no retreat to fearless units made almost every Nid unit better.

Mahtamori wrote:Off the top of my head I can't think of a single model which didn't get better. The question is, what models inside their codex are actually worth their points - or in the case of this list, what models became more worth their points than previously? I'd say that units that were bad before, better now, but still dubious in worth do not really merit a mention (I'm thinking of most snipers which are still very costly for what they provide)

Khorne Berzerkers, Sword Brethren, Sword Brethren Assault Terminators with claws and similar units that used to strike at I5 with FC but no longer do are worse off now, as MEQ will get to strike back (and the claws are AP3).

Ascalam wrote:Flash Gitz - trading premeasuring for ignoring cover is a boost. Still not a great unit, but not terrible any more.

I love flash gitz now. Ignores cover is awesome, and if you upgrade to -1 on AP, you have 2/3 chance of ignoring SM armor. They are definitely worth their price in my book now.

As for the MANz, they are fantastic and I love using them. I never actually ran them in 5th, so I can't say how much better they are, but they are killer. The only thing that irks me about them is the finecast transition. Until they get a new plastic box, I am probably not buying any new MANz. And that makes me sad.

-cgmckenzie

ZebioLizard2 wrote:WS3, T5, no save with 3 wounds That can be instantly killed by a stray railgun shot.
Costs a little less than 2 beserkers, who actually do damage, have a decent save, do S5 on the charge, can have power weapon attacks, have a transport option, and have krak grenades for when their weapons aren't usable.
Chaos spawn still aren't decent. Take plague marines who are now better, heck take noise marines, they are fearless as well and two are the same price, they'll actually hold just as well.

I've got a number of issues with that analysis. One, T5 is not to be sniffed at, so the Berzerker/Noise Marine comparison isn't terribly fair, even with the armour difference.
Two, getting two or three (while no longer falling under "cheap") offsets this.
Three, instant death is not a major concern. There are very few S10 weapons in the game - and exactly who needs a tarpit unit against the Tau...?

I do understand that for the most part, Plague Marines do do the job better. But that doesn't change the fact that Spawn are no longer ENTIRELY useless.

For the Tau,

Firewarriors got mentioned, being able to move and shoot S5 AP5 at 30" is a HUGE boost. Biggest in the dex.

Other boosts:

Steath suits getting +3 to their cover save everywhere they go (4+ in the wide open, 2+ in any decent cover)

All jump suits getting ridiculous mobility increase, espeically being able to use a "jump move" in the assault phase after deep striking.

Also, every tau vehicle having a built in cover save from "jink", it's like having a disruption pod for free!

Ailaros wrote:So I'd like to point out that rage isn't any killier in this edition, it's just less annoying to the rager.

Take a close look on page 41. It says you get +2 to your attacks INSTEAD OF your +1 attack. You don't get +1 attack and then +2 attacks, you get +2 attacks.

This means that rage did what it did before, give you a +1 to attacks.

Rage didn't give you an extra attack on the charge in 5E, it was all negative.

noone has mentioned harlequins yet.... so sad. they are mean as hell now.

YotsubaSnake wrote:For the Tau,

Firewarriors got mentioned, being able to move and shoot S5 AP5 at 30" is a HUGE boost. Biggest in the dex.

Other boosts:

Steath suits getting +3 to their cover save everywhere they go (4+ in the wide open, 2+ in any decent cover)

All jump suits getting ridiculous mobility increase, espeically being able to use a "jump move" in the assault phase after deep striking.

Also, every tau vehicle having a built in cover save from "jink", it's like having a disruption pod for free!

Spot on about the Stealth suits.

My favourite part of the new rules is the sentence “A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule”

Been running my Stealth’s with a Crisis Shas’el a few gun drones and a healthy mix of battle suit systems. What was a fairly unspectacular unit in 5th is now a crazy jumping, infiltrating, deep striking death machine.

For DE...

Warriors got the same boost as every rapid fire infantry: slightly more mobile.

Venom-blasterborn got a little better and a little worse, venoms will be shot down a lot easier, but blasterborn can shoot at BS1 after moving 12" without having to disembark(but then if we disembarked in 5th ed, we could shoot at BS4...)..

RJB got a lot better in survivability, jink save + skilled rider and the chance to move further with the EJB extra move(moving into cover, out of shooting/assault range, etc). Still hate splinter rifle though.

Scourges got a little bit more desirable, HWB glancing fun.

Beastmasters with their new beast rules have better synergy with baron now, so that's a big boost.

Harder to deny coven units' FNP as well.

meneroth2 wrote:noone has mentioned harlequins yet.... so sad. they are mean as hell now.

As long as they are CWE ones..

Sodding FAQ disparities.

And yes, i love my harlequins.

Neconilis wrote:

Ailaros wrote:So I'd like to point out that rage isn't any killier in this edition, it's just less annoying to the rager.

Take a close look on page 41. It says you get +2 to your attacks INSTEAD OF your +1 attack. You don't get +1 attack and then +2 attacks, you get +2 attacks.

This means that rage did what it did before, give you a +1 to attacks.

Rage didn't give you an extra attack on the charge in 5E, it was all negative.

Although he's doing a bad job of explaining it, I think he means that you get +1 attack for charging normally and rage changes that to +2, for a net gain of 1 attack.

Xeriapt wrote:Lord of Change, now gets +2 str and has ap2 attacks, is also a monstrous flying creature, went from being a meh choice to definately worth considering.

Are you sure?
I dont have my codex with me but I thought although he is modeled with a staff, it was one of his gifts (I forget which one) that said treats close combat "like a power weapon"
so his gift gives him no extra strength and ap3 rather than his weapon giving him +2 strength ap2.
but thats just my opinion.

a staff pw is like mace so +2 to str and MCs always hit at ap2

Steel Angel wrote:a staff pw is like mace so +2 to str and MCs always hit at ap2

But what I mean is its the chaos gifts that grants "power weapon" not his staff.

Mahtamori wrote:
Off the top of my head I can't think of a single model which didn't get better

Guardians got worse.

Everything with a Rapid Fire weapon, or a 4+ armour save or better got relatively better thanks to the new rules.

Guardians (who were already terrible) have neither and are relatively worse.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:
Off the top of my head I can't think of a single model which didn't get better

Guardians got worse.

Everything with a Rapid Fire weapon, or a 4+ armour save or better got relatively better thanks to the new rules.

Guardians (who were already terrible) have neither and are relatively worse.

After all, Guardians are poets and philosophers. What would you expect.

They are still good at babysitting a heavy weapon in a ruin led by a Warlock with embolden, or when they walk in an Avatar's fearlessness bubble.

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:

Lotet wrote:4) Wracks: re-roll to wound againt T3 and T4 when the do a Furious Charge.
maybe Hormagaunst as well but I lost my Codex so I can't say for sure.

I'm pretty sure they could do this in 5th...

Although, now that power weapons and AP1/2 don't ignore FNP, Grotesques will only be having their 5+ ignored by S10 weaponry, or Force weapons. Their save is a lot more reliable now. However, their FC doesn't put them, at I5 any more, so it's kind of a toss up

the change from 4+ to 5+ hurt DE more than anyone else, as they relied on it the most with their 6+ save troopers.
also wracks always rerolled to wound against T3 and T4(on the charge with FC)

the thing that got better in the DE book, immensely better, was reaver jetbikes. They now have 4+ cover wherever they go, still have 3+ after turboing, they can move 48" a turn, they ignore difficult terrain now(no dangerous checks), they get an init 10 hit when they charge and can move further in the assault phase.

Anything with a demolisher cannon got better. With their short range, they use to sit on the battlefield unitl the opponent got close to them and shook/stunned/weapon destroyed them once and then pilled into to kill the rest of your army. Now they are so hard to stun, you are likely to get some shots off.

I still wouldn't take them to a tournament but SM Honour Guard got useful. 2+ save will keep them pretty safe in cc and the champion is pretty not bad at challenges. Keep them cheap and stay away from power fists and they should put the hurt on. Especially against meq killers like banshees.

Swiftclaws

Bikes in generally got a bump. But Swifclaws are better now too. Especially since Land Speeders and other vehicles can't contest. Its nice to be able to drive hard for an objective to contest if needed. Let's look at what they get:

- Hammer of Wrath
- Jink
- Relentless
- Ignore Difficult Terrain
- Turbo Boost
- Toughness 5
- Immune to Pinning
- Can fight in combat (and gets Berserker Charge for +2 attacks on the charge as well)
- Can contest objectives
- Twin-Linked Boltguns (that BS 3 ain't so bad)
- Melta that can actually get into Melta range (and with a Wolf Priest you can re-roll a third of your misses)

On paper I'm starting to like them more than Thunderwolf Cavalry. Thunderwolves are expensive, not as fast, and easier to slow down. Rending is nice but they are so scary that opponents tend to overcompensate and drop A-bombs on them.

You also get more wounds/unit with Swiftclaws than with Thunderwolves typically. Sure they cost half the points of a naked Thunderwolf, but usually you have to throw on a Storm Shield that costs more than another Swiftclaw in order to keep your Thunderwolves alive to reach close combat. The wargear for the Swiftclaws is comparatively cheap.

Ran a couple of Dakkafexes the other week and seemed to do quite well, 25% cover rule certainly helps and AP- on the devs w/ BL isnt as harsh now that glancing is a bit more lethal.
Will have to pay some more though to finally see.

Terminators that can mix and match their specialist weapons got a huge boost.

Wolf Guard for example can now take a power fist and a lighting claw for 48 points per model. The guy gets four attacks on the charge/counter charge with either S4 AP3 at iniative with rerolls, or S8, AP2, Init 1 attacks.

Talk about your perfect loadout for taking on anything.