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They are just to divergent to be rolled into one

Only because they were increasingly made to be to be more different to be able to sell as a separate Codex.

First they were a mere footnote of a Codex adherent chapter, and then were filled out to be an 80% Vanilla Chapter whose only huge difference in squads was the presence of Neophytes, that they could take an Emperors Champion and more than one LR Crusader, and had a page of Special rules. 4 pages total and it made them a unique chapter.

Youre in a thread with a bunch of BT fans and youre arguing that our army doesnt deserve recognition? Good luck with those results.

Actually, I am saying that they would be perfectly fine as an addition to the Space Marines Codex. I'm not insulting anyone's preference in army men. My best buddy has played Black Templars since they come out as a separate army in the Codex: Armageddon.


My whole original point to the OP is it would be perfectly fine and fluffy to field Black Templars as a vanilla chapter, as that takes them back to their roots.

AegisGrimm wrote:Actually, I am saying that they would be perfectly fine as an addition to the Space Marines Codex. I'm not insulting anyone's preference in army men. My best buddy has played Black Templars since they come out as a separate army in the Codex: Armageddon.


My whole original point to the OP is it would be perfectly fine and fluffy to field Black Templars as a vanilla chapter, as that takes them back to their roots.

Lets have another complete fluff overhaul and make them a Codex Chapter! After all, who doesn't love Guilliman and the Ultramarines...

On a more serious note, why should armies like DA remain if BT get rerolled into C:SM? They have even less players and the codex is already almost identical to vanilla Marines. I agree if you include them as a smaller, completely separate army variant with all special rules, inlcuding EC, Neophytes, 20-man squads, vows and special rules. I disagree if they get reduced to two pages of crap with nothing special about them.

Why does anyone think that Black Templars will get rolled back in to the Space Marine Codex in the first place? What makes them special?? Just because we are the oldest codex in use? I just do not see this happening.

J99Pwrangler wrote:Why does anyone think that Black Templars will get rolled back in to the Space Marine Codex in the first place? What makes them special?? Just because we are the oldest codex in use? I just do not see this happening.

The current BRB lables the BT models under the regular marines entry. And only "normal" units of Black Templars are shown. No Sword Bretheren ect.

I agree that BT don't need their own codex. Just because they aren't a "codex chapter" doesn't mean they aren't made up of units already in the vanilla codex.

DA, BT and BA could all be represented by a mini dex that explains the differences and special characters and give them points values.

Space Marines should have two large codexes:

Codex: Sions of Gullimon

Codex: Divergent Chapters

DeffDred wrote:

J99Pwrangler wrote:Why does anyone think that Black Templars will get rolled back in to the Space Marine Codex in the first place? What makes them special?? Just because we are the oldest codex in use? I just do not see this happening.

The current BRB lables the BT models under the regular marines entry. And only "normal" units of Black Templars are shown. No Sword Bretheren ect.

I agree that BT don't need their own codex. Just because they aren't a "codex chapter" doesn't mean they aren't made up of units already in the vanilla codex.

DA, BT and BA could all be represented by a mini dex that explains the differences and special characters and give them points values.

There's Sword Brethren in there. Dunno what you've been looking at.

Also, BT can be folded in but SW can't? They're just as divergent.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
On a more serious note, why should armies like DA remain if BT get rerolled into C:SM? They have even less players and the codex is already almost identical to vanilla Marines.

Well obviously they shouldn't remain. Both BA and DA could easily be rolled into vanilla codex.

Space Marines should have two large codexes:

Codex: Sions of Gullimon

Codex: Divergent Chapters

This actually makes sense... They should have the "Codex" that Normal Space Marines should follow. Then another codex for non-standard chapters. Because after all, Gillimun (idk how to spell his name) made the codex to follow for a guild line for all space marines.

I personally think that would be an efficient way to do it, if it weren't for the fact that GW would rather sell all the Codex books separately to make more money. I always thought the other way, if Black Templars are special enough to get their own Codex, why aren't Salamanders and Space Wolves 13th Company? They were both variant Space marine lists that showed up in campaign codex books, just like BT, and easily had just as big a section for their special rules and units as the BT when they came out.

I think each version Codex governing Space Marines should be a 1st founding Chapter, and the variants that follow the rules in it, even if they were simple Index Astartes entries. It's worth mentioning that even though Dark Angels and Blood Angels are unique Chapters, they both were introduced under the same Codex: Angels of Death.

-Dark Angels
-Blood Angels(incl. Flesh Tearers)
-Space Wolves (incl. 13th Company)
-Codex Space Marines (incl. Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, White Scars, Black Templars, Salamanders, etc.)

I can't see it getting rolled.

First, in the brand new big rule book they just made, they included the Black Templars on the ally chart. If they were going to roll it (or worse), they could have just left them off of it and FAQd them for now.

Second, the Black Templars are one of the furthest from the Codex chapters created by the Primarchs.
They have risen beyond the numbers cap that was put on all chapters. Also, the High Marshal doesn't even care if the Inquisition asks about it. He just tells them to get lost!
They don't use scouts, which is the dedicated training program for everyone else. Black Templars just throw them into the field with everyone else.
Of course, they have other variences, but those are what really sets them apart. That is almost more of a reason to give them their own codex. The Space Wolves just have mutant fangs!

I would dare say that Space Wolves and Blood Angels deviate from the normal codex chapters a helluva lot more than Black Templars. Space Wolves aren't my favorite Chapter, but I think it's more than just their fangs growing as they get older. There's also the part where they have far more than 1,000 members just like BT, and there's the part about them sometimes mutating into horrible mindless werewolves.

Plus their unit organization is far more altered than just having scouts fight alongside battle-brothers- they don't have scouts at all in the sense that other chapters do. Their scouts aren't neophytes in training- they are full battle brothers who choose to wear less armor to function as commandos.

I will admit, however, that Black Templars are further off-template than say, Dark Angels. Fluff-wise DA may be different, but functionally you can easily use their codex options to easily represent Standard Codex Chapters. Deathwing could represent Invictus and the Ultramarines 1st Company in their Terminator armor, and nearly every single Codex-standard chapter has at least one support company (usually the 8th) that functions just like the Ravenwing if it were to take to the field en-mass to support the other companies.

And I fully expect to see their Codex get updates. I would just rather see another army get some first before yet another MEQ force.

Play Black Templars. It may require some effort, but it can be a very effective army. Being competitive rests as much on the shoulders of the player as the codex, which is why so many people play Grey Knights...

I like Black Templars, and I even play them in their traditional CC method. I know that our Termies with dual heavy weapons and our cheap Typhoon Speeders are an internet favorite, but I prefer to play them fluffy and I still rarely loose. Having a bunch of marines on the field is hard to overcome, and they have a lot of really fun special rules.

I don't think it would be horrible to get into them now, just understand that they have an old book. I also do not see them being wrapped up into Codex: SM. They are not a Astartes Chapter for all intended purpose, they require their own Codex more than any other Marine chapter as such. The BT fanbase is typically very loyal, and many of them dislike Marine chapters that aren't BT...they like that they are different than the norm in the entire game.

I would be upset if we got wrapped into the Codex: SM, I just don't see it happening. Too much money to do that to themselves, and too much fan displeasure to do that to them.

I am just building up my SM army as well and I thought of more or less the same question, but in my case it was more driven by the fact I wanted to use certain units that werent available unless you used the BA codex (the Baal Pred specifically) but I also wanted to do my army in a more BT style without set "companies" but do them as a crusade type force.

Don't think I could get away with that though. And I'm trying to get my SM to fit in with my IG as they (and the IG force) were supposed to have been in a system that was cut-off by a warp storm for serveral centuries.

AegisGrimm wrote:I would dare say that Space Wolves and Blood Angels deviate from the normal codex chapters a helluva lot more than Black Templars.

You're going to have to justify that, and do it well indeed. The Blood Angels DO follow the Codex Astartes after all, with 10 Companies, the 1st being the Veterans and the 10th the Scouts. They have the Codex-approved Chapter Command structure and the only two things that really make them deviant is the Death Company and the Sanguinary Guards.

Meanwhile, the Black Templars have no Companies, no Librarium, no scouts, no Devastators, way too many Marines, no organized squads, no Vanguard or Sternguard Veterans and no Sergeants. They're just as divergent as the Space Wolves.

I think the Black Templars have the upper hand on this form.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

AegisGrimm wrote:I would dare say that Space Wolves and Blood Angels deviate from the normal codex chapters a helluva lot more than Black Templars.

You're going to have to justify that, and do it well indeed. The Blood Angels DO follow the Codex Astartes after all, with 10 Companies, the 1st being the Veterans and the 10th the Scouts. They have the Codex-approved Chapter Command structure and the only two things that really make them deviant is the Death Company and the Sanguinary Guards.

Meanwhile, the Black Templars have no Companies, no Librarium, no scouts, no Devastators, way too many Marines, no organized squads, no Vanguard or Sternguard Veterans and no Sergeants. They're just as divergent as the Space Wolves.

Let me step in a minute here

1. Black Templars and Wolves are probably tied as most divergent.

2. The Templars are not going to be squatted. They have finecast EC's, Helbrecht and sword brethren. I would put the scenarios in this order from most likely to least
1. White dwarf supplement to new codex in 2-3 years
2. Into C:Space Marines
3. NEw codex around 2014
4. Rolled into codex: eldar
5. Squatted

(BTW point 4 is juts sarcasm to show how likely I think a squatting is.

3. To everyone talking about DA that last codex of ours took away most of our special snowflake attributes also later codicies for other armies encroached upon our special abilities so i would assume that we will be brought into line with a new codex.

I would imagine a Black Templar codex isn't far off with Eldar and Tau being two xenos books coming out next year. Black Templars are nasty on the assault now

1 attack base
+1 attack from close combat weapons
+1 attack on the charge
+1 attack from rage on the charge
*re-roll all of those hits you missed if you have a chaplain in the squad

I think you should go Black Templars starting the army myself but maybe go with the paint scheme your most comfortable with and play them as Templars or regular marines.

I would recommend using chaplains to benefit from a very strong assault

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Being competitive rests as much on the shoulders of the player as the codex, which is why so many people play Grey Knights...

That's an oxymoron if ever I saw one.

tkrettler91 wrote:I would imagine a Black Templar codex isn't far off with Eldar and Tau being two xenos books coming out next year. Black Templars are nasty on the assault now

1 attack base
+1 attack from close combat weapons
+1 attack on the charge
+1 attack from rage on the charge
*re-roll all of those hits you missed if you have a chaplain in the squad

And that's the only time that Rage is better than Preferred Enemy. When you have a Chaplain in the squad and you get the charge. The melee prowess of the Black Templars was nerfed in 6th, not buffed, especially considering our prime melee unit, furiously charging LC Terminators with rerolls to everything, took quite a hit, both from losing PE and from LCs going to AP3.

You know, the armies are kept separate in the allies matrix. So that could lead you to believe that they will remain separate as much as the combined gallery in the back can point to them being one army.

Anyways people are focusing way to much on the gallery. No one knows what GW knows until they want us to know it.

Bump for new release rumors! Hope this means an update!!!

d3m01iti0n wrote:Bump for new release rumors! Hope this means an update!!!

What are you talking about? I'm not following you.

Rumors thread, where everything is taken with a grain of salt. But I like salt on my food so......

What new release rumors?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/468955.page


Booyah. Here's hoping.

Here's hoping what? I didn't see any Black Templars on that list, unfortunately.

A few examples:


200465411540206 Space Marine Bike Squadron / Crusader Bike Squadron PL a15 Len_A 02 cc
200462811440204 Space Marine Neophytes PL a14 Len_A 02 cc
200468011440204 Space Marine Sword Brethren / Nightflame Veteran Squad PL a14 Len_A 02 cc
200475630110203 Paladin Marshall Sieghelm RE c01 Len_B 02 cc (not sure about this guy but he might be ours.)

Exactly, Space Marine Neophytes etc.; more evidence that BT may not get a Dex of their own. And let's face it, it wouldn't be 40k if they didn't release a vanilla SM dex each edition.