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Trench-Raider wrote:he only entity hurt by recasting is GW, and I'm on board for anything negative that happens to them.

There may not be any profit in it, sometimes the motive is not profit. i.e. your quote.

My dad tells a story about people taking Mexican peso coins and smashing them with a hammer until they are the size of a quarter. Takes about 15 minutes of hammering to do it, and old laundromats and some old soda machines will take them. A Mexican Peso is worth about 8 cents, so you net 17 cents every 15 minutes. That is a whopping $0.68 per hour profit. Why would anyone work that hard to make 68 cents an hour? To "stick it to the MAN"!!!!

People would spend hours of effort and buckets of money to be able to avoid giving the money to GW.

There is one little fact that people who are speculaing that these might not be recasts and in fact are older metal models seem to have missed: all the parts are some sort of soft lead alloy. I've worked with enough lead miniatures in my time to know it when I cut into it. These are lead. GW has not made a lead figure since 1993.

By the way, these painted up nicely. You would never know they are not the real deal now after they have been cleaned of flash, painted, and based.. I do love a good deal.

And now the off topic fun:

Then why are you playing, supporting, and participating in a forum about their product?

If you don't like something, just stop.

Son, I've been over this before, but I'll spell it out again. I've been playing 40k since the fall of 1989. I've painted more armies than most four people I know. I enjoy the game. I enjoy the older fluff. I enjoy painting many of the figures. It's provided me with alot of enjoyment over the years and will continue to do so. But I hate GW with an intense passion. I saw them for their true colors back in the summer of '90s with their 100% lied about price increase due to the "lead scare" and they've gone donw hill since then. I simply refuse to give them any money at all. I do this by buying any miniature or model I obtain these days through the second hand market, Ebay purchases like this being a favorite. I go the less legitmate route for books and I utilize my older armies were possible using the "counts as rule". The end result is that GW has not gotten a cent of my money for quite a few years My hobby is not dependant upon GW and is quite seperate from them.

Does that clear things up a bit?

TR

I'm certainly not aware of any normal backpacks being cast in metal, not for a loooong time at least.

Trench-Raider wrote: I simply refuse to give them any money at all. I do this by buying any miniature or model I obtain these days through the second hand market, Ebay purchases like this being a favorite.

I'm curious to know why you think that isn't giving GW money. It's the same as buying it in 3rd party store.

Trench-Raider wrote:There is one little fact that people who are speculaing that these might not be recasts and in fact are older metal models seem to have missed: all the parts are some sort of soft lead alloy. I've worked with enough lead miniatures in my time to know it when I cut into it. These are lead. GW has not made a lead figure since 1993.

By the way, these painted up nicely. You would never know they are not the real deal now after they have been cleaned of flash, painted, and based.. I do love a good deal.

And now the off topic fun:

Then why are you playing, supporting, and participating in a forum about their product?

If you don't like something, just stop.

Son, I've been over this before, but I'll spell it out again. I've been playing 40k since the fall of 1989. I've painted more armies than most four people I know. I enjoy the game. I enjoy the older fluff. I enjoy painting many of the figures. It's provided me with alot of enjoyment over the years and will continue to do so. But I hate GW with an intense passion. I saw them for their true colors back in the summer of '90s with their 100% lied about price increase due to the "lead scare" and they've gone donw hill since then. I simply refuse to give them any money at all. I do this by buying any miniature or model I obtain these days through the second hand market, Ebay purchases like this being a favorite. I go the less legitmate route for books and I utilize my older armies were possible using the "counts as rule". The end result is that GW has not gotten a cent of my money for quite a few years My hobby is not dependant upon GW and is quite seperate from them.

Does that clear things up a bit?

TR

Way to be patronizing... Your hobby is dependant on GW. Where do you think those minis and rules come from? I'm sorry, but this is the worst kind of self entitled rubbish. "i don't like some of what GW do so I'm going to leach off them for the bits I do like". Your reliant on the people who do buy from GW to keep them in business so you continue to get rules and a supply of minis. This is not about second hand. I have no problem at all with people buying second hand and do so myself, or doing count as. This is about you wanting rules and recast minis to "stick it" to a company your hobby is dependant on. There are plenty of other wargames that are not GW. Try one, you might enjoy it, and you can knokw you are not supporting your "hated GW" at all and not braking the law.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Trench-Raider wrote: I simply refuse to give them any money at all. I do this by buying any miniature or model I obtain these days through the second hand market, Ebay purchases like this being a favorite.

I'm curious to know why you think that isn't giving GW money. It's the same as buying it in 3rd party store.

Not if you buy second hand stuff, which is usually signifiantly cheaper anyway.

Steve steveson wrote:Way to be patronizing... Your hobby is dependant on GW. Where do you think those minis and rules come from? I'm sorry, but this is the worst kind of self entitled rubbish. "i don't like some of what GW do so I'm going to leach off them for the bits I do like". Your reliant on the people who do buy from GW to keep them in business so you continue to get rules and a supply of minis. This is not about second hand. I have no problem at all with people buying second hand and do so myself, or doing count as. This is about you wanting rules and recast minis to "stick it" to a company your hobby is dependant on. There are plenty of other wargames that are not GW. Try one, you might enjoy it, and you can knokw you are not supporting your "hated GW" at all and not braking the law.

Won't support GW isn't gonna hurt the hobby, nor the Warhammer games. You say he's wrong and shouldn't do it, but that is just perspective. Neither the hobby nor the games are dependent upon GW anymore. They used to be, but you must realize the game is self-sustaining now. It has an extremely loyal fanbase. GW fails, Warhammer will not die out. It is not dependant upon GW and neither I nor he will feel bad if GW is hurt. They are being unfair, and they deserve what's coming for them.

Palindrome wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Trench-Raider wrote: I simply refuse to give them any money at all. I do this by buying any miniature or model I obtain these days through the second hand market, Ebay purchases like this being a favorite.

I'm curious to know why you think that isn't giving GW money. It's the same as buying it in 3rd party store.

Not if you buy second hand stuff, which is usually signifiantly cheaper anyway.

Someone else buys it from GW; you buy it from them. This is exactly how any FLGS works.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Someone else buys it from GW; you buy it from them. This is exactly how any FLGS works.

It's not exactly the same, as GW doesn't actually get any money from that second sale and it's not part of a first line retail chain of sale. Also, the impact of the secondary market isn't as influential because -despite what it looks like on ebay, BT, Dakka,etc- not everyone sells the stuff they buy.

However, DE is much more than half right. The impact is still quite large. I've not seen any studies, but it's extremely likely that the re-sellability of GW merchandise has a large impact on buyers and the prestige of the GW brand. Every time you buy a 2nd hand GW item, you reinforce the widely held belief that GW creates a high-quality product that holds significant value even beyond the initial purchase.

You may not put cash strait into GW's pocket, but you certainly are encouraging others to do so (Lots of folks sell one GW product just to buy another) and GW is happy to take their -and by extention your- money.


On a related note...
For price reasons I have also stopped buying GW new for the past few years. Occasionally I will buy something used or oop, and I know that GW is seeing some benefit from that since I'm mostly buying from gamers and alot of them are sending my $ right back to GW. However, it's not a big deal for me because my motivation is mostly economic, not moral. Sure alot of what GW does ticks me off, but I'm not paying their prices and that's enough for me.

In fact, if I was entirely honest, I'd have to admit that I'm happy to see others pay GW prices in order to keep the second hand market strong and to keep GW's doors open so it can keep up what I see as it's most important function, which is being the largest and most visible "gateway" for newbies into the miniature gaming hobby.

LumenPraebeo wrote:[Not supporting] GW isn't gonna hurt the hobby, nor the Warhammer games. You say he's wrong and shouldn't do it, but that is just perspective. Neither the hobby nor the games are dependent upon GW anymore. They used to be, but you must realize the game is self-sustaining now. It has an extremely loyal fanbase. GW fails, Warhammer will not die out. It is not dependant upon GW and neither I nor he will feel bad if GW is hurt. They are being unfair, and they deserve what's coming for them.

Quoted for truth.

I've been playing 40k for the better part of two decades. I've played five different editions of the rules, and I own entire armies for every major faction but Tyranids and Tau (I will never fully accept the Tau lol) and I have to say that over the years, GW's influence on their own product has gradually become on average negative.

Let me explain. GW has grown up, from a smallish company run by gamers who had a real interest in their own product, to a corporation only answerable to shareholders, run by suits who hate their own customers. They literally do not care about you, and they don't care what direction the product goes in. Anything calculated to attract 13 year olds and/or increase the bottom line can and will be done, including:

turning Blood Angels and Space Wolves largely into grotesque caricatures with oftentimes rather hideously ostentatious models

dropping all support for tournaments

continuously releasing new rulesets that might fix some old problems but always introduce many new ones

being unresponsive to obvious imbalance issues and actively encouraging codex creep

total lack of support for any of their excellent and less costly "specialist" games

price increases above and beyond inflation until your wallet starts crying even during a major recession

and FINECAST fer crissakes

The evidence that GW does not care about their own hobby is plentiful, and the longer they go, the worse things will likely get as their customer base shrinks and they need to make bigger and bigger money grabs. Just get ready for lots of big, stupid-looking models that are now essential for winning apocalypse-style games crammed onto a 6 ft wide board. That's the future of 40k.

The players, however, are incredibly loyal, and many of us love this hobby, its imagery, its stories, to death. Look at the games that GW has stopped supporting, and you'll see some of the best, most balanced rulesets around, supported oftentimes by third party models skirting copyright law. The players are balancing the rules themselves online through consensus via living rulesets, and the many other talented sculptors and casters that exist in this world are filling in gaps in the model lines.

Even games that ARE supported, like 40k, still have players making rules, supplements, and third party models that are oftentimes superior to GW's own offerings. I can guarantee that, were GW to suddenly collapse overnight, and their valuable IP somehow be no longer protected, the void would be filled. Players like JustDave would improve and tweak codices and rules until they were perfect. Third party bits makers would soon be making whole models, in high quality, sufficient to meet the needs of players, and with lower prices through *gasp* competition! It would be chaotic for awhile, for sure, but it would be fun too, and the hobby would survive. In fact, given GW's abysmal advertising strategy, I doubt player numbers would drop that much, as the game is mostly spread by word of mouth anyway. In fact, more people might try their hand at it and stick with it if prices weren't completely out of control.

So in my opinion GW's IP would actually be better off if it were balanced and maintained from the bottom up rather than the top down. Even if you disagree, warhammer 40k at this point is capable of existing long after GW goes belly up.

Amen brother! I have not and will not pay the horrendous cost for any finecast model. I will continue this and try to get others to stop as well until they "GW" return to reasonable priced plastics. As to the rules, Just Dave and his peers balance the broken rules well.

SilverMK2 wrote:
I've had a number of arm with shoulder pad cast all in one in metal from various GW kits before.

But regular bolter arms? I've gotten the metal bodies with plastic arms and metal special weapons from blisters before, but I don't think they've ever made metal arms for just regular bolters.

Brother SRM wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:
I've had a number of arm with shoulder pad cast all in one in metal from various GW kits before.

But regular bolter arms? I've gotten the metal bodies with plastic arms and metal special weapons from blisters before, but I don't think they've ever made metal arms for just regular bolters.

At the very least the arms and backpack and bolter are all recasts. However Trench Raider has mentioned that they are lead, meaning that the whole thing is a recast.

Also glad to see you back Trenchie, I always like reading about your stories from the Rogue Trader era!

I've got a couple of those metal Plasma Gun guys from early 3rd. Almost forgot they existed. And metal/plastic hybrid Heavy Bolter... *shudder*

DarknessEternal wrote:Then why are you playing, supporting, and participating in a forum about their product?

If you don't like something, just stop.

You still haven't quite got this whole "Not liking GW =/= not liking 40K" thing sorted, have you?

H.B.M.C. wrote:I've got a couple of those metal Plasma Gun guys from early 3rd. Almost forgot they existed. And metal/plastic hybrid Heavy Bolter... *shudder*

The plastic heavy weapons for Marines was one of the best kits GW ever released, solely because of what they were replacing. I can't tell you how many times my hybrid heavy bolter dudes fell over, usually leading to the model doing a headstand and chipping the paint. The metal plasma and melta gun guys weren't bad, but I can't say I miss the heavy weapons at all!

pretre wrote:That's unlikely to happen unless someone produces a citadel catalog from 1999-2001.

I happen to have those 3 years on the shelf. Pretty much all of the spacemarine pics are painted, so it's hard to tell what's metal. But I don't see anything resembling the OP's mini that might be lead. And my recollection of the time points to this being a re-cast. Lead arms were generally only on special mins, not tacticals, who kept the old 2nd ed plastic arms sprues.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
You still haven't quite got this whole "Not liking GW =/= not liking 40K" thing sorted, have you?

Because it's fickle mush-head bullcrap.

Supporting their product means you do like them. You don't get to have it both ways. The world doesn't care for two-edged swords.

I don't like DeBeers. They are a terrorist organization that somehow gets away with it. Therefore, I don't buy diamonds, no matter how pretty someone thinks they are. And yes, this is an appropriate analogy. Both are luxury items no one has any need for.

If you claim to hate GW and like 40k, you are demonstrating a lack of conviction.

4, you say?

This looks like the ones you get in the 4-man booster packs in plastic.

DarknessEternal wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
You still haven't quite got this whole "Not liking GW =/= not liking 40K" thing sorted, have you?

Because it's fickle mush-head bullcrap.

Supporting their product means you do like them. You don't get to have it both ways. The world doesn't care for two-edged swords.

I don't like DeBeers. They are a terrorist organization that somehow gets away with it. Therefore, I don't buy diamonds, no matter how pretty someone thinks they are. And yes, this is an appropriate analogy. Both are luxury items no one has any need for.

If you claim to hate GW and like 40k, you are demonstrating a lack of conviction.

I have to agree here. I detest the business practices of Walmart, and refuse to shop there. I also don't support companies that promote hate wrapped in religion as an official company policy as is the case with Hobbytown and more recently Chick-Fil-A. They will never get a cent of my money, ever.

Yet somehow with GW buying secondhand or from 3rd party retailers somehow absolves you of support for GW. It's like if I claimed to despise Chick-Fil-A for their stance against gay people, so I had someone else go in a order my chicken sandwich and bring it outside the store to me to eat it there.

That being said, I am not saying you can't be critical of a companies practices and still use their products. I think a lot of oil companies are some of the biggest scum bags on Earth, yet I still buy gas from them. I guess my point is, if you say you hate a company so much you are actively cheering for them to fail, and justify engaging in illegal practices because you despise them so much, I also question why you would bother purchasing their products AT ALL, regardless of if it was a second-hand or fifth-hand purchase. It does show a lack of conviction, in my opinion.

Brother SRM wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:
I've had a number of arm with shoulder pad cast all in one in metal from various GW kits before.

But regular bolter arms? I've gotten the metal bodies with plastic arms and metal special weapons from blisters before, but I don't think they've ever made metal arms for just regular bolters.

This is correct the metal bodies came with plastic arms NOT metal arms. These are recasts. On top of this normal bolters were not made separately in metal.

Starfarer wrote:I also don't support companies that promote hate wrapped in religion as an official company policy as is the case with Hobbytown and more recently Chick-Fil-A. They will never get a cent of my money, ever.

Apparently I missed something, what did Hobbytown do? I know Chick-Fil-A upper brass hates on homosexuals, but have not heard anything about Hobbytown. Please enlighten me ??

(Being serious here, not trying to be a dick)

Starfarer wrote:
Yet somehow with GW buying secondhand or from 3rd party retailers somehow absolves you of support for GW.

Buying second hand certainly does, esecially as I tend to buy obviously used models. 3rd party resellers are esentially the same as buying direct so I avoid them for GW stuff.

Your fast food analogy is flawed as I don't give GW anything, I give the person who already bought the GW items money but that certainly doesn't mean that GW will see a penny of it.

Palindrome wrote:
Buying second hand certainly does, esecially as I tend to buy obviously used models. 3rd party resellers are esentially the same as buying direct so I avoid them for GW stuff.

Your fast food analogy is flawed as I don't give GW anything, I give the person who already bought the GW items money but that certainly doesn't mean that GW will see a penny of it.

See my earlier post. Buying used or new GW supports GW in that you are...
1)...showing visible support for GW products. No matter how you bought it, people see you buying and using it and it's an endorsement of GW. It's like saying I don't like Toyota company, so I drive used Toyotas. If you drive a Toyota, you're giving an implicit endorsement of the company, and that's valuable for any company.

2)...reinforcing the used value of GW which adds to the percieived value of new GW. That GW products sell so well in the used market, adds to their prestige and status as a valuable product for which they can continue to charge high prices.

3) ....likely freeing up more income for purchasing GW. Not for sure of course, but a huge number of folks selling used GW are selling it to buy other GW products.

I'm not saying you should feel guilty about buying 2nd hand used GW. But don't fool yourself in thinking that GW doesn't get some benefit in you buying and using their 2nd hand product.

If I may get a bit silly, the only way to avoid GW getting any benefit is to buy and use it without telling anyone and to make sure you are only buying it from someone who has agreed to not spend the $ on other GW products.

nolzur wrote:

Starfarer wrote:I also don't support companies that promote hate wrapped in religion as an official company policy as is the case with Hobbytown and more recently Chick-Fil-A. They will never get a cent of my money, ever.

Apparently I missed something, what did Hobbytown do? I know Chick-Fil-A upper brass hates on homosexuals, but have not heard anything about Hobbytown. Please enlighten me ?? (Being serious here, not trying to be a dick)

I'm trying to Google up something regarding Hobbytown (as I recently moved to a town with one and I've been giving them heavy business, so I'd be curious to know) but it is important to know that Hobbytown USA is franchised, rather than being a fully-owned-by-a-parent chain. That means that the owner of any given HTUSA store likely has nothing to do with anything at corporate and is sending very little money back up the line.

As to the Diamond-related quote from DarknessEternal above, I think that Diamonds are a good example. You however forgot a key thing: if you are careful and pay attention to where you source your diamonds from (for example, Canada) then you can avoid any problems with supporting DeBeers. That, I think, demonstrates quite well the stance under discussion.

Magc8Ball wrote:
As to the Diamond-related quote from DarknessEternal above, I think that Diamonds are a good example. You however forgot a key thing: if you are careful and pay attention to where you source your diamonds from (for example, Canada) then you can avoid any problems with supporting DeBeers. That, I think, demonstrates quite well the stance under discussion.

Buying 40k models not made by GW is supporting criminal cartels. This is better somehow?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Magc8Ball wrote:
As to the Diamond-related quote from DarknessEternal above, I think that Diamonds are a good example. You however forgot a key thing: if you are careful and pay attention to where you source your diamonds from (for example, Canada) then you can avoid any problems with supporting DeBeers. That, I think, demonstrates quite well the stance under discussion.

Buying 40k models not made by GW is supporting criminal cartels. This is better somehow?

Erm, no, I'm saying the exact opposite. Leaving the idea of "criminal cartels" out of the discussion, you basically compared GW to DeBeers (in the sense of boycotting a company's entire output from top to bottom). The point that I was making is that it is perfectly possible to find alternate sources or alternate materials to keep playing a game (or following a tradition in the sense of diamonds as gifts) without supporting the company you are trying to avoid giving money to. This would be the 3rd party/Alternate mini market for 40K (I won't support counterfeiting) or the Canadian diamond supply in gems.

I think something that is very important for people to remember here as well is that we are participants in the Tabletop Wargaming hobby, not some exercise in corporate hijacking called "the Games Workshop Hobby". Someone that happens to like the 40K rules or that wants to play games regardless of the rules (if their local area only plays 40k for instance) but that does not support GW's business practices should always be free to use whatever they want to play with. Yes, the rulebook and at least one codex is a required purchase, but I won't consider someone a hypocrite for buying the rulebook and not buying anything else from GW.

I prefer to buy second hand for a simple reason. My money might be going back to GW, but its a mere trickle. Trying to get people to cut them off is impossible. As simple as that. But the more that buy second hand, the less and less they can get. I mean, if somebody buys something from GW, then I buy it at 50%, then they sure as hell arent going to go back and buy that exact same model. They dont have the money for it if they are just going off what I gave them. And also, I can hate GW without hating 40k, because 40k was going strong long before GW became the money hoarding, suit wearing, corporate skull-feths that they currently are. I cant just stop loving a game that I cherish because the company that makes it is going to be super douchey. Thats like not buying gas because you hate the oil companys. Maybe your "sticking it to the man", but your car sure as hell isnt getting you anywhere. I may not like where my gas comes from, but I sure as heck prefer to have a working car. I may not like the company that made my models, but Im not gonna stop playing my favorite wargame just to spite them. Thats just plain ignorant. Those of you who said it shows a lack of conviction.....well, you guys just clearly dont like the game as much as those of us who 'lack conviction'. In the end, buying second hand is the best I can do to still enjoy my hobby, yet kick GW a little here and there. And maybe they wont ever change. But if they dont, eventually they'll mess up, fail, and the smaller companies will rise and shine. Eilif, I like most of what you have to say, thank you for saying it. CalgarsPimpHand, I also like what you have to say. Darkness Eternal.....you just seem incredibly biased.

Cutting your own nose off to spite your face doesn't make any sense. Why would you stop playing a game you already own because you dislike the company that makes it? I don't like Activision and consider them (and their CEO) to be a blight upon an increasingly consumer-hostile industry... but I'm not going to throw out/stop playing all the Activision games I've bought over the years. That would be daft. I dislike Blizzard (for the exact same reasons), and as a result have not (and will not) buy Diablo III until they allow offline gaming... but I'm not about to break my Diablo II CD's either.

Hell, as far as I'm concerned, even the people who said "Never again" to buying GW products could buy the 6th Ed rulebook without being hypocrites in my eyes. Can't hardly play the game without the rules, even if you never buy another miniature.

DarknessEternal wrote:If you claim to hate GW and like 40k, you are demonstrating a lack of conviction.

There aren't enough facepalms in all the world.

The MPAA and the RIAA are two horrendous organisations that overinflate everything they do and sue people for millions and millions over "lost income" for a few MP3's. I find their litigious actions deplorable if not outright dishonest... so should I swear off buying music and movies for the rest of time? What about a more simple example than "diamond terrorist groups" (Jesus... )... there are some actors that I really don't like (Random Example: Colin Ferrel). I can still enjoy movies that they're in, can't I (Random Example: Phone Booth)? I should I stop watching them, because to do otherwise would demonstrate a "lack of conviction"?

I really like 40K. I've been playing it for years. I really like (most) 40K miniatures. I think they're some of the most inspired designs out there, with some of the best technology behind their creation (not Finecost though, obviously; I'm talking more their plastic technology). I think the 40K background is some of the richest and most carefully crafted out there (ignoring Ward-esque brain-farts). I'd even go so far as to say that 40K is more important to me than it ever will be to you (and there are some very good reasons for that).

None of these things - not a one! - would require someone to like GW as a company. Not liking GW =/= not liking 40K. Get that through your skull.

Darkness: Seriously, I think the vast majority of gamers and well... people don't see things as black and white as you do on this. There is, and always will be, a grey area.

My wife refuses to buy any chocolate products that are non fair trade because of child labour but that doesn't mean she has stopped liking the product of that labour, she just doesn't want to give money to the end product. VERY different in 40k when you can continue to buy second hand and not direct (or even on the black market).

nolzur wrote:

Starfarer wrote:I also don't support companies that promote hate wrapped in religion as an official company policy as is the case with Hobbytown and more recently Chick-Fil-A. They will never get a cent of my money, ever.

Apparently I missed something, what did Hobbytown do? I know Chick-Fil-A upper brass hates on homosexuals, but have not heard anything about Hobbytown. Please enlighten me ??

(Being serious here, not trying to be a dick)

Hey, sorry for the confusion, I meant Hobby Lobby, not Hobbytown. I spaced when posting that. Anyway, they promote themselves as a fundamentalist Christian organization, and I don't support companies that bring their personal religious beliefs into their business practices.