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I'm always on the lookout for good deals and pride myself in never buying GW stuff at full price. I troll Ebay on a regular basis looking for horribly painted miniatures that I can strip and repaint. It's the smart way to shop and has the nice side effect of making sure GW never gets any of my money. Over the weekend, this led to an interesting/amusing find.

I won an auction for a squad of Space Marine models late last month. The auction was a classic example of what I look for: one poor quality photo and an awful little kid paint job. The auction scared away most other bidders and the result was that I paid about ten dollars for the lot after shipping. On Friday afternoon my package arrived and I immediately noticed that something was amiss. Four of the ten figures were so heavy as to obviously be metal miniatures, but all apeared to be recent sculpt plastic Space Marines. Thinking that the heavy miniatures might be second edition metal body/plastic arms models, I soaked them in bath of the harsh chemiical stripper I use on metal figures, while the plastics went in a bath of Simple Green. When I checked back on them Sunday, I was amazed to see that the four metal models (under that thick nasty coat of paint) were these:


No, you'r eyes are not decieving you. That is a recent plastic model that has been entirely cast in metal. It's cast in some kind of cheap lead based alloy.....badly cleaned of it's mold lines as well. In adition, one of the plastic miniatures (which otherwise look legit) had one of these metal cast backpacks as well. I'm not upset by any means as I still got a good deal. But it does bring up two points:
-How brazen do you have to be to sell such obvious couterfiet miniatures to strangers on Ebay? I mean recasting a metal miniature is one thing. But to cast up plastic figures in lead? Wow.
-What does that say about the state that GW's pricing that someone felt it was worth the cost in mold rubber and metal (but to be fair, casting lead is very, very cheap) and to expend the time and effort to cast up multi-part miniatures? Personal level casting is hot, labor intensive, repeative, work after all.

Needless to say, I will be using these. Why not? I might as well not just throw my money away. After trimming off those awful mold lines I'm going to have to pin the arms. (the previous owner had jusy glued them in place, which will not hold with any amount of use) After being cleaned, painted, and based these should be just fine to use. Likewise, it goes without saying that this seller is on my "saved sellers" list and I'll be watching for more deals in the future.

TR

Who was the seller if you dont mind me asking?

Dannygee wrote:Who was the seller if you dont mind me asking?

I don't mind you asking, but I'm going to keep that information to my self for three reasons:
-I would hate to see someone go on a crusade to get the guy in trouble for something this minor. The only entity hurt by recasting is GW, and I'm on board for anything negative that happens to them.
-There is no way to tell if the seller is the person who created the models. The seller may have got them in a trade, didn't realise they were recasts at the time, and is offloading them. Given the "little kid" look of the paint jobs the figures sported, I suspect that scenario might be close to the truth.
-I plan on bidding on future auctions from this person and I want to minimise the competition!

I will say that it was an individual seller with a low auction count and 100% positive feedback rather than someone with an "Ebay Store".

TR

I suppose it just shows a) how much of a market there is for cheap GW stuff and b) how much of a margin there is to be made, even reselling stuff on Ebay.


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Also, while the suits at GW aren't going to be pushing the panic button just yet over what is at the moment, small scale counterfeiting operations, there might be some cause for slight concern. Counterfeiting on Ebay used to be solely the preserve of Forgeworld-type stuff; recast Titans and things like that, sprayed black to disguise the difference in resin colour and flogged on through Ebay - because the counterfeiter could make a tidy sum, even selling at discount because of the large price of FW stuff. We see it time and again with DKOK stuff; loads of counterfeit stuff because it is popular and bloody expensive to buy from FW.

A recent trend to start counterfeiting something as basic as a bog standard marine might be a slight indicator that even that price point has been pushed up to a point where it is worth someone's time and effort to fake it

This tends to only happen with items that are artificially inflated in price to a huge degree for no real reason.. (Like handbags also).

Getting a metal model does indeed suck tho.

Are you sure that is a recast and not just an old mini? If it is someone went through a lot of trouble to put a mounting tab on it and making sure it had an inscription.

I don't think that looks like a copy of a plastic mini. It's got a tab on it's feet (plastics do not) and it looks like the tab is an official "GW" tab, from what little I can read on it.

There was a time in the past when you could get monopose SM's with removable arms in metal, IIRC.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:I don't think that looks like a copy of a plastic mini. It's got a tab on it's feet (plastics do not) and it looks like the tab is an official "GW" tab, from what little I can read on it.

There was a time in the past when you could get monopose SM's with removable arms in metal, IIRC.

Eric

The tab reads "Space Marine" on one side and GW 1999 on the other. So it's a third edition casting. I know that second edition plastics had tabs. Did the third edtion ones as well? I don't recall . In any event, GW has never made the arms in metal like that and the bolter and backpack are recent designs. Not only that, but the entire model is made of a lead based alloy. GW has not made a lead figure since the "lead scare" of 1992-3. It's a recast.

TR

Yes, third edition had tabs.


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Looks like the marine could be Assault Marine #2 (2nd from the right, top row):




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Also, metal backpacks were cast back in that time period as well. Two examples here:


Different, but same style with different marks instead of the skull.


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You'll also notice that the Vet Sgt in the lower right of the first picture has the same type of bolter, again in metal.

It is entirely possible that that is a legit all metal GW marine.

Trench-Raider wrote:
The tab reads "Space Marine" on one side and GW 1999 on the other. So it's a third edition casting. I know that second edition plastics had tabs. Did the third edtion ones as well? I don't recall . In any event, GW has never made the arms in metal like that and the bolter and backpack are recent designs. Not only that, but the entire model is made of a lead based alloy. GW has not made a lead figure since the "lead scare" of 1992-3. It's a recast.

TR

Yeah. They had metals in 3e. As for the arms... Are you certain? I'd swear I had some at one point... that I got in a NIB set.
As for the backpack - When you say "recent designs" on the bolter and backpack, how recent are you talking? I can't think of any major changes to either since I started playing 40K in 3e.

Again - not to say you're wrong, just to say "let's don't jump the gun."

Eric

I'm almost 100% certain on the arms. The shoulder pads being cast as one piece with the arm bit is a give away. When I say "recent design" for the backpack, I mean that it's a third edition and later backpack. The RT and 2nd edition backpacks were different.

Make no mistake about it. I'm fine them being recasts, if that's the case and will use them regardless. I just find it amusingly brazen of someone to sell them if they are.

TR

A good number of 3rd edition metal models had Shoulder pads moulded in if the arm was metal:

Them is counterfit at least in part.

The arms with thumbs up were never made in metal. Niether were the "newstyle" (not 2nd ed) backpacks.

Fascinating.... maybe it is a sign GW's pushing to far. Or you got a rather awesome old school Marine find.

You're thinking someone intentionally recasted this for sale. More likely, someone was curious about the process and tried recasting just for funzies. Not everything is done for calculated profit. BTW, recasting any part of plastic space marine except legs is not profitable in any case, just recast legs and get unused spare parts from any marine player.

It could also be that person used his recasts for a while, then gave them away for free to some kid who had no idea, then kid's parents sold his whole toybox. So, there was little or no evil intentions on every step. Except the whole "let's deny GW its profit" thing which you also seem to be into.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Fascinating.... maybe it is a sign GW's pushing to far. Or you got a rather awesome old school Marine find.

Secretive individuals with Access to relevant skills, materials and darkened basement will find a way. Easier to say wargamers for the most part are cheap.

Around the release of third edition, they did release marines in metal that were the exact same style as the new plastic ones that came in the 3rd edition starter box alongside the dark eldar.

They were available around the release of 3rd edition and up to the release of the new tactical box in 2000.

Hold on, the Tactical marines box came out at the same time as the third edition boxed set. It had the exact same sprues, after all.

I certainly don't recall metal detached-arm Mk 7 marines ever having been generally released; the most likely assumption is indeed that the miniature is a recast. That said, I do vaguely recall that I may have seen unreleased (prototypes? promotional items?) multi-part metal Mk 7 marines at some time in the distant past; it is vaguely possible that what you have is something of that order.

I can't tell from the picture, but how well-finished are the undersides of the pauldrons where they attach to the arms? That (and sharpness of detail, presuming you could find a similar body of the same age) might offer a clue.

English Assassin wrote:I certainly don't recall metal detached-arm Mk 7 marines ever having been generally released; the most likely assumption is indeed that the miniature is a recast.

I would have to agree. The 2nd edition metal tactical/assault marines Pretre posted came with plastic arms.

Also, both those arms look like a mould taken from the current plastic marine arms (that come with the tactical box etc.) that have been around for quite some time - I think if you measured them up against those plastic arms, you would find that they are identical, or at least that's how I am seeing them.

In my mind definitely a re-cast.

Trench-Raider wrote:4 The only entity hurt by recasting is GW, and I'm on board for anything negative that happens to them.

Then why are you playing, supporting, and participating in a forum about their product?

If you don't like something, just stop.

Pacific wrote:

English Assassin wrote:I certainly don't recall metal detached-arm Mk 7 marines ever having been generally released; the most likely assumption is indeed that the miniature is a recast.

I would have to agree. The 2nd edition metal tactical/assault marines Pretre posted came with plastic arms.

Also, both those arms look like a mould taken from the current plastic marine arms (that come with the tactical box etc.) that have been around for quite some time - I think if you measured them up against those plastic arms, you would find that they are identical, or at least that's how I am seeing them.

In my mind definitely a re-cast.

Oh almost certainly, yes. For the sake of it, I'd be interested to see him measured against 2nd and 3rd edition-era metals, and against the present plastics (having looked though the old catalogue pages, there's no metal sculpt in that pose with Mk 6 legs and a Mk 7 torso and head) to work out from where he's been re-cast - presumably indeed his "master" came from from the current multi-part kit.

The only things which makes me wonder that he might not be some obscure but genuine rarity are the boltgun and backpack? Casting bodies I can understand, but who in the world doesn't have a vast surplus of backpacks and bolters (and arms, for that matter)? Of course, were I of a mind to re-cast my own miniatures, I might do unnecessary bits as an exercise...

[quote=DarknessEternal
If you don't like something, just stop.

Eilif wrote:Them is counterfit at least in part.

The arms with thumbs up were never made in metal. Niether were the "newstyle" (not 2nd ed) backpacks.

I posted two examples of backpacks almost identical to that one...

pretre wrote:

Eilif wrote:Them is counterfit at least in part.

The arms with thumbs up were never made in metal. Niether were the "newstyle" (not 2nd ed) backpacks.

I posted two examples of backpacks almost identical to that one...

Almost is the key word, though I should have been more specific. The ONLY backpack that I've ever seen with the newstyle and the skull in the middle as in the first pic was plastic from the basic marines sprue. The backpacks you posted are BT specific, and are NOT the same.

Until someone can come up with a picture proving otherwise, It's well established that the arms and the backpack are recasts.

My money is on the body being a recast as well, though we definitely need better pics to determine more.

Heh, but now you moved the goalposts.

You said 'newstyle' backpacks were never made in metal, not that newstyle backpacks with skulls were never made in metal.

Unfortunately, SOL doesn't have the GW catalogs for a couple crucial years to solve this dispute.

pretre wrote:Heh, but now you moved the goalposts.

You said 'newstyle' backpacks were never made in metal, not that newstyle backpacks with skulls were never made in metal.

Unfortunately, SOL doesn't have the GW catalogs for a couple crucial years to solve this dispute.

Yes I did. I admitted that I should have been more specific in my statement. It's called admitting you were mistaken or misspoken. Something that is generally regarded as an honest part of conversation...

...and something I think you'll have an opportunity to do shortly when it becomes clear that the backpack in question was never produced by GW in metal.

That's unlikely to happen unless someone produces a citadel catalog from 1999-2001.

Edit Wrong catalogs.

Nevermind

Trench-Raider wrote:I'm almost 100% certain on the arms. The shoulder pads being cast as one piece with the arm bit is a give away.

I've had a number of arm with shoulder pad cast all in one in metal from various GW kits before.