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CT GAMER wrote:
There are plenty of gifted athletes, some of whom are the best in their sport or position who do not express themselves in this manner or act as if they are above those around them. Humility and being classy CAN coexist with great ability and celebrity.

Sure, they can, but its either a facade or delusion. Kobe Bryant is more important than the vast, vast majority of his fans. As are all celebrities, professional athletes, political figures, etc. People find it annoying when they act as though they are because they don't like being reminded that they're insignificant.

dogma wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:
There are plenty of gifted athletes, some of whom are the best in their sport or position who do not express themselves in this manner or act as if they are above those around them. Humility and being classy CAN coexist with great ability and celebrity.

Sure, they can, but its either a facade or delusion. Kobe Bryant is more important than the vast, vast majority of his fans. As are all celebrities, professional athletes, political figures, etc. People find it annoying when they act as though they are because they don't like being reminded that they're insignificant.

Just wow...

Who talked bad about Kevin Durant in here!

The Thunder is still young, and the players still have time to be corrupted, but I hope they stay the way they are now. Too many donkey caves out there, but sports fans created most of them.

CT GAMER wrote:
Take Lebron James: he speaks of himself in the third person and has tattoos glorifying his own ability. Now compare that to Gretsky or Tom Brady who always downplay their own skills and performances and instead talk about teammates or team effort, etc.

Knowing you are great is one thing. How you choose to carry and represent yourself in spite of that fact speaks to your character...

Part of that is the fact that professional basketball is a much more individual sport than is often realized. Part of it is also that Gretzky and Brady* are good in front of a camera. But the biggest part is that Brady and Gretzky were never expected to be good.



*Especially Brady. Gretzky may have been the Great One, but the he played with 5 other Hall of Famers.

The group of people willing to buy his clothes are probably the same people who really didn't care much about the crap he was up to anyway.

As to the whole redemption thing, it's all just one facet of the celebrity worshiping culture we've been forced to come up since we decided traditional religion was passe and needed somewhere for the weak minded to pour out their faith.

I think there's a South Park episode about this. Basically, what MGS describes is the whole point of celebrities. The idea is to build them up and then knock them down and then build them back up. Think Eldar, man.

CT GAMER wrote:

dogma wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:
There are plenty of gifted athletes, some of whom are the best in their sport or position who do not express themselves in this manner or act as if they are above those around them. Humility and being classy CAN coexist with great ability and celebrity.

Sure, they can, but its either a facade or delusion. Kobe Bryant is more important than the vast, vast majority of his fans. As are all celebrities, professional athletes, political figures, etc. People find it annoying when they act as though they are because they don't like being reminded that they're insignificant.

Just wow...

I don't see how this is controversial. If you die, your family and friends will care. If he dies, his family, friends, followers, the media, and several companies will care.

That's simply how it is. He is more important than you are.

That's a ridiculous statement to make, just because you're very well known doesn't mean you're more important. See Tesla, at the time he wasn't particularly well known yet he impacted the 20th century hugely. The same goes for Feynman, anyone that worked on the Manhattan project, anyone that worked on the enigma code and thousands of other less well known people that drastically influenced the world.

Part of me likes to think that people don't actually indulge in celebrity worship... then you see the millions of pounds that they make from endorsements, public appearances and tacky crap.

One of the many things wrong with society.

/skyisfalling

People in general like an underdog. The very public lives of celebrities means we get to see a large portion of everything they do. When they fail in very large ways, your average person wants to see them comeback and be 'better' then they were. How many Hollywood movies can you name (that aren't based on real events) where the underdog doesn't come out on top in the end? NPR did a story a month or so ago about the rarity of people who root against the underdog. It's human nature.

Case in point: how many people hate the Yankees and Patriots simply because they win to much? The yankees are traditionally one of the highest payrolls in baseball, so when the little guy comes in and beats them, everyone is happy.

Does this make it right? No. Are they better then everyone else? No, their lives are just more public. Ask someone how many Americans were killed in Afghanistan last month and I bet they'd have to look it up. Ask them about tiger blood and everyone is a Charlie Sheen expert.

Corpsesarefun wrote:That's a ridiculous statement to make, just because you're very well known doesn't mean you're more important. See Tesla, at the time he wasn't particularly well known yet he impacted the 20th century hugely. The same goes for Feynman, anyone that worked on the Manhattan project, anyone that worked on the enigma code and thousands of other less well known people that drastically influenced the world.

They're important now, but they weren't important then. Not speaking broadly to all people of their times.

However, they were important to important people.

Another example: When the Pope dies, many will weep, when I die far fewer will weep, because the Pope is more important than I am.

dogma wrote:

Corpsesarefun wrote:That's a ridiculous statement to make, just because you're very well known doesn't mean you're more important. See Tesla, at the time he wasn't particularly well known yet he impacted the 20th century hugely. The same goes for Feynman, anyone that worked on the Manhattan project, anyone that worked on the enigma code and thousands of other less well known people that drastically influenced the world.

They're important now, but they weren't important then. Not speaking broadly to all people of their times.

However, they were important to important people.

Another example: When the Pope dies, many will weep, when I die far fewer will weep, because the Pope is more important than I am.

I think your missing the point.

Yes people think they are important and thus make them important in how they treat them, give them breaks and favors, and hero-worship them, etc.

That is all perks of their status in our society no question.

That however does not excuse the athletes themselevs from acting in a proper ethical/moral fashion, nor should it give them free rein to act like donkey-caves to others. Then again as long as people continue to make excuses for them (and continue to hand them dollars) some will continue to do so...

back to the OP: I don't think Vick is in any way "redeemed". He stoped killing and ausing dogs for profit only because he was caught and it gave him bad PR.

This new line of clothing is a way for him to cash in on his own infamy, and that is just as distasteful as the orginal acts in my opinion.

So you used to abuse and kill animals but now you are "redeemed" so buy an overpriced shirt with your picture on it? No thanks...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote:

Another example: When the Pope dies, many will weep, when I die far fewer will weep, because the Pope is more important than I am.

So to clarify: if you have lots of friends/followers you have the right to be a tool? I disagree.

You keep making the above point, but I dont see how it answers the actual question of why narcisistic donkey-caves feel they can be narcisitic donkey-caves?

No one doubts these people's skills or social status. The problem is their behavior despite that status and the sad fact that so many are willing to make excuses for and continue to worship them...

I don't just agree with Dogma, he is irrefutably correct. Its fething obvious, the people that give a feth/depend on your efforts in life be it monetary or otherwise think you matter. But nobody else does.

Now, I'm probably more important than most of you lot because I am so charming and witty and as such have a large circle of friends.

But I'm less important than some fether that sings or dances. Do any of us think were going to get one of those pointless "RIP" threads on dakka, or some dog gak facebook group remembering us? I mean, I don't think famous people are important either really in the grand scheme of things, but they are more important than the proles. You don't even gave to be famous, If you are pretty rich you are more important too right? (And they all bloody are.. famous people I mean obviously)

Surely a bloke who pays $1 million a year in tax, is pretty important, because his contribution feeds sick kids, pays for food and ammo for our serving soldiers.. whatever, clothes the hungry and helps in the other myriad ways the government spends it.

Does a hobo with no friends and no income who pays no taxes and does nothing but take "matter"? Who does he matter to? And why does he matter? I might matter a little if even one penny of my income tax feeds a kid, but him? nobody cares when he dies, ndobdy will go to his funeral, and nobody will even notice.

The definition of not mattering!

Or what about some career wellfare recipient whose very existence poisons the fething world? Does he matter?

No he doesn't.

What I don't understand is, why do you lot get so pissed at Dogma for stating what is an obvious fact!

CT GAMER wrote:
I think your missing the point.

No, you are. You're normal, they aren't. You're angry because you want to be exceptional but lack the ability. Too bad.

Know your role.

CT GAMER wrote:
That however does not excuse the athletes themselevs from acting in a proper ethical/moral fashion, nor should it give them free rein to act like donkey-caves to others.

Sure it does, they exist in a unique set of circumstance, and respond uniquely. Applying nominal standards to them is unfair, and indicative of jealousy.

CT GAMER wrote:
So to clarify: if you have lots of friends/followers you have the right to be a tool?

Yes, insofar as "rights" exist.

CT GAMER wrote:=The problem is their behavior despite that status and the sad fact that so many are willing to make excuses for and continue to worship them...

I've already explained why they do this. They believe they're better than you, and by all measures they are better than you.

Accept this, it will make your life easier.

What I don't understand is, why do you lot get so pissed at Dogma for stating what is an obvious fact

Because some can't see it as fact.

Jihadin wrote:

What I don't understand is, why do you lot get so pissed at Dogma for stating what is an obvious fact

Because some can't see it as fact.

It obviously is though isnt it!?

I dont see how you can fail to see it, its as obvious as the capital of France, we couldn't "debate" it if I said Paris you said it was Brussels, I would be 100% right, and you would be 100% wrong, this kinda thing isnt a nuanced thing you can chat about, its a simple answer.

You can even provide a positive proof using math!

If person A gets 5000 people at his funeral, and person B was a down and out drunk so only two people turned up at his, Person A mattered more.

Easy!

If enough people think you are special and important then you are special and important.

Some people have an interesting skill or talent that caused them to get attention to begin with, but if enough people think you matter then you matter. Not because of anything you did, but because everybody else says so.

d-usa wrote:If enough people think you are special and important then you are special and important.

Some people have an interesting skill or talent that caused them to get attention to begin with, but if enough people think you matter then you matter. Not because of anything you did, but because everybody else says so.

Yes. A thousand times yes.

dogma wrote:

d-usa wrote:If enough people think you are special and important then you are special and important.

Some people have an interesting skill or talent that caused them to get attention to begin with, but if enough people think you matter then you matter. Not because of anything you did, but because everybody else says so.

Yes. A thousand times yes.

Aye, that's why in this day and age we even get celebrities who don't actually do anything, they dont have an actual ability or talent, they are just famous for being famous like Kim Kardashian.

She is more important than me, because people like looking at her tits.

Fair enough I suppose.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:


I choose not to forgive Paterno and his cronies in PennState for covering up the rape of children.

I choose not to forgive Vick for this:

Not everyone in the US forgives and forgets so easily, MGS.

I still refuse to watch any game Vick plays in. The guy is a complete dick. He may have done his time in prison, but that doesn't mean I have to forgive him or give him 1 minute of my time or attention.

Penn State is lucky to have gotten off with what they did. The "Death Sentence" (no football for 1-3 years) would have been preferable to me.

mattyrm wrote: I don't just agree with Dogma, he is irrefutably correct. Its fething obvious...

Agreed.

I'm seeing a lot of people in this thread that are angry because they are largely irrelevant, and enjoy making themselves feel better by tearing down people who are much more influential and talented than they are.

Now, I'm not saying that Michael Vick should be treated as some sort of hero (I hate the guy, based on the terrible things he's done) but the general "celebrity hatred" in this thread really seems to stem from bitterness and jealousy.

He's right that the majority of celebrities are more important, but that still doesn't justify someone doing what Vick or Roethlisberger did. The worst thing Kobe ever did was be cocky and cheat on his wife. In his situation both are completely understandable if not commendable and they don't qualify him as an donkey-cave.

Monster Rain wrote:I'm seeing a lot of people in this thread that are angry because they are largely irrelevant, and enjoy making themselves feel better by tearing down people who are much more influential and talented than they are.

Of course, that is why anyone cares about celebrities in the first place.

I care about fine celebrity chicks with nice asses and huge racks.

That's where my celebrity caring stops.

edit: wtf how did that happen

Amaya wrote:I'd care about the shooting events if they had a 1000m+ event instead of this short range rapid fire crap.

I think you posted in the wrong thread, but I'd totally watch a hot chick celebrity use an uzi in a bikini!

Amaya wrote:He's right that the majority of celebrities are more important, but that still doesn't justify someone doing what Vick or Roethlisberger did.

That's why I differentiated between justifiably thinking those two guys are douchebags (animal cruelty and rape are bad, mmkay?) and general celebrity hating.

Manchu wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I'm seeing a lot of people in this thread that are angry because they are largely irrelevant, and enjoy making themselves feel better by tearing down people who are much more influential and talented than they are.

Of course, that is why anyone cares about celebrities in the first place.

True.

Barring the sort of thing I mentioned above, I don't understand being anything other than a "fan" or "indifferent" to a given celebrity. Devoting energy toward being a hater for the sake of being a hater just smacks of a small, bitter person.

The rabid defense of celebrities amuses me to no end with how sad it is.


Then again so does the hate at times.

Monster Rain wrote:Devoting energy toward being a hater for the sake of being a hater just smacks of a small, bitter person.

FWIW, I don't think that describes how people view celebrities they don't like. When people feel ill-will towards a celebrity, they usually don't say "just because." You know, you'll hear that someone hates Paris Hilton because she doesn't do anything but be rich and how is that enough to be famous. Or you'll hear that someone hates Justin Bieber because his music is bland and generic and certainly not worthy of all the praise it gets. So people have their reasons.

Mike Tyson was convicted and sent to jail for rape, yet went on to box and indeed star in box office films.

Didn't anyone tell you? Morality is so nineteenth century. Nothing is wrong any more.