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Amaya wrote:TLDR: The point is you can't throw around the PFT to claim one branch is more elite than another branch. The only thing that makes the USMC more 'elite' is the longer boot camp, greater emphasis on discipline and and junior NCO/enlisted responsibility, and the emphasis that every Marine is a rifleman. All of that is really irrelevant as there is something like a 90% pass rate for boot camp. You have to actively quit and try to get thrown out to fail boot camp or suffer a serious injury. Don't let the recruiting adds trick you into thinking the entire branch is on par with the Rangers.

Did you read my post? Besides the PFT I also mentioned the longer boot camp and the emphasis on every Marine being a rifleman. I also never said or even implied that the entire Marine Corps is on par with the Rangers. If anything I implied the opposite when I said that the Marines have only within the past few years entered the SOCOM community with MARSOC, and don't have the the long history and operational experience of being a part of SOCOM as the elite units of the Army (which includes the Rangers) and the Navy.

Hordini wrote:

Amaya wrote:TLDR: The point is you can't throw around the PFT to claim one branch is more elite than another branch. The only thing that makes the USMC more 'elite' is the longer boot camp, greater emphasis on discipline and and junior NCO/enlisted responsibility, and the emphasis that every Marine is a rifleman. All of that is really irrelevant as there is something like a 90% pass rate for boot camp. You have to actively quit and try to get thrown out to fail boot camp or suffer a serious injury. Don't let the recruiting adds trick you into thinking the entire branch is on par with the Rangers.

Did you read my post? Besides the PFT I also mentioned the longer boot camp and the emphasis on every Marine being a rifleman. I also never said or even implied that the entire Marine Corps is on par with the Rangers. If anything I implied the opposite when I said that the Marines have only within the past few years entered the SOCOM community with MARSOC, and don't have the the long history and operational experience of being a part of SOCOM as the elite units of the Army (which includes the Rangers) and the Navy.

And the longer boot camp is meaningless. One of the reasons it is longer is because of swim week, which the Army doesn't have ASFAIK. Longer =/= harder. If some fat body is making it through boot and is still fat at the end, something is being done horribly wrong.

Boot and MCT lose their meaning when people are being funneled through them and passing despite having not retained any information, developed the skill set sufficiently, and developed the physical strength and stamina to perform their job.

Amaya wrote:

Hordini wrote:

Amaya wrote:TLDR: The point is you can't throw around the PFT to claim one branch is more elite than another branch. The only thing that makes the USMC more 'elite' is the longer boot camp, greater emphasis on discipline and and junior NCO/enlisted responsibility, and the emphasis that every Marine is a rifleman. All of that is really irrelevant as there is something like a 90% pass rate for boot camp. You have to actively quit and try to get thrown out to fail boot camp or suffer a serious injury. Don't let the recruiting adds trick you into thinking the entire branch is on par with the Rangers.

Did you read my post? Besides the PFT I also mentioned the longer boot camp and the emphasis on every Marine being a rifleman. I also never said or even implied that the entire Marine Corps is on par with the Rangers. If anything I implied the opposite when I said that the Marines have only within the past few years entered the SOCOM community with MARSOC, and don't have the the long history and operational experience of being a part of SOCOM as the elite units of the Army (which includes the Rangers) and the Navy.

And the longer boot camp is meaningless. One of the reasons it is longer is because of swim week, which the Army doesn't have ASFAIK. Longer =/= harder. If some fat body is making it through boot and is still fat at the end, something is being done horribly wrong.

Boot and MCT lose their meaning when people are being funneled through them and passing despite having not retained any information, developed the skill set sufficiently, and developed the physical strength and stamina to perform their job.

I'm sure there are people who make it through every branch's basic training that probably shouldn't, but that doesn't mean that the basic training for each branch are created equal or that Marine training is being done horribly wrong compared to other branches. It also doesn't change that fact that the physical standards for the Marines, whether you consider them easy or not, are still more difficult than the other branches. And it's also telling that as someone already mentioned, Marines don't have to redo basic training if they transfer to another branch, but if someone transfers to the Marines they have to go through the Marine training.

Okay, why is it harder than other branches? To make superior servicemen or bring them up to the required performance level to be basically trained Marines, correct?
That's great until you lower the standards to the point where people don't need to have the skills and knowledge to pass, to pass. I don't if they were unwilling to make people repeat because of the war and they needed Marines to go through the pipeline ASAP or what. The only people I saw get dropped were serious injuries that were unable to train, one suicide attempt in my platoon, one AWOL from my company, a couple recruits didn't qualify at the Range and got dropped back a couple of weeks, I think people who failed Swim Qual I got dropped back to repeat that week, and a couple recruits got dropped for being overweight. No one got dropped for falling out of forced marches, our routinely failing to learn basic knowledge (ie ranks, proper wear of the uniform, basic stuff), hell you could do 2 pull ups, 40 crunches, and run 3 miles in 28 minutes and still pass the PFT. The high standards for the PFT are meaningless when the minimum standards are pathetically low just so you can retain servicemembers and pass recruits.

There are similar issues at MCT. Not everyone who passes can strip down and re assemble all the weapons systems, not everyone learned all the knowledge on the various weapon systems, not everyone was minimally competent at fire and manouvering , etc.

Getting a max score on the USMC PFT is harder than the other services, passing it is not. Boot Camp is slightly longer, probably slightly physically harder, and probably much more stressful even though everyone pretty much gets passed through. MCT is very basic and everyone gets passed through.

The Marines are probably more elite in the sense that are more disciplined, require more personal responsibility and command abilities from junior Marines (ie LCPLs and PFCs leading fire teams/squads instead of NCOs) and have more of a 'warrior ethos.'

Personally, I think putting them on a pedestal as more "elite" than the other services is a bit of a slight to the other services, especially those in the Army's Combat Arms. Some of it is based in reality, but a lot of it is bravado. They are all essentially equally branches that anyone capable of serving in the military could join. They just have different roles, different traditions, and slightly different cultures.

Dragging it a bit OT here lads, but yeah, the US Marines aren't "elite" just because everyone wants to be called elite because it sounds cool, doesn't make it so, and its trivially easy to prove.

Firstly the training bleed from the USMC is tiny, secondly there are fething loads of them, and thirdly, they aren't SF. Ergo they are run of the mill grunts.

Regards Not props idea, I think the bad guys should have been British because everyone knows they make the best bad guys, but Britain is a puny little Island in 2012 and wouldn't have the manpower to invade Spain, let alone America.

Maybe the British Army could invade Diego Garcia or Hawaii or something, that would make for a cool film.

mattyrm wrote: Maybe the British Army could invade Diego Garcia or Hawaii or something, that would make for a cool film.

Rupert does not surf. However, he does take his tea with plenty of Hawaiian sugar! ... smells like VICTORY!

Amaya wrote:None of the branch's PFTs are hard, the only argument you could make for the USMC PFT being hard is that it is actually difficult to max out the run if you don't give a feth about seriously running. Doing 100 crunches in 2 minutes is easy, many people were doing 120+, and the record is something like 200+. Its also a stupid test because unless crunches are done perfectly they work your hip flexors more than they work your abdominal muscles. The primary function of the core is stabilization, not bending to do crunches or sit ups.

20 pull ups are relatively easy if you put forth any effort into them. It shouldn't take you more than 6 to 12 months to be able to max out pull ups if you put forth the effort.

The 18:00m requirement for a 3 mile run also isn't particularly difficult for anyone that is a serious runner. The best mile I ever ran was 5:30 in 8th grade which is fething slow by any serious standards and I still finished the run in 20:15. Serious runners can do it in under 16:00.

All of the PFTs are kind of pointless though as they do not analyze how your body can perform in combat, which is why the USMC added the Combat Fitness Test. It should be easy for some 5'6" 140lb guy to max the PFT, but that doesn't mean his body will be able to handle the rigors of combat as well as some 6'+, 220lb muscle head who can't run a sub 7minute mile.


TLDR: The point is you can't throw around the PFT to claim one branch is more elite than another branch. The only thing that makes the USMC more 'elite' is the longer boot camp, greater emphasis on discipline and and junior NCO/enlisted responsibility, and the emphasis that every Marine is a rifleman. All of that is really irrelevant as there is something like a 90% pass rate for boot camp. You have to actively quit and try to get thrown out to fail boot camp or suffer a serious injury. Don't let the recruiting adds trick you into thinking the entire branch is on par with the Rangers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relapse wrote:I know if a Marine goes to another branch of the service that they don't have to go through their boot camp like someone coming into the Marines from another branch would.
I was in the Marine reserves way long ago and my plabtoon in bootcamp had a rough attrition rate of 32%.
I'm not sure what the percentages were in the other branches at the time, but I remember we'd have people breaking down and crying, trying to desert by climbing the fence between MCRD and the airport or just breaking down, physicaly unable to take anymore.

When was this?

This was back in '83.

SilverMK2 wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Maybe the British Army could invade Diego Garcia or Hawaii or something, that would make for a cool film.

Rupert does not surf. However, he does take his tea with plenty of Hawaiian sugar! ... smells like VICTORY!

[monical falls from eye into tea cup] "I say chaps there appears to be some vagrant children attacking the men, wearing what appears to be angry badger t-shirts.

Release the hounds....."

Matty, I've got news for you - Diego Garcia is part of British Indian Ocean territories! How can we invade our own guys!!

Any explanation as to how North Korea invades the USA? Teleportation???

A British invasion of the USA could work. With Canadian might, a two pronged attacked with a land based invasion from Canada and the Royal navy capturing New York and Boston...is it 1812 or 2012

Finally, the original had Harry Dean Stanton, the new version doesn't. Hence, the original is superior. Case closed

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Matty, I've got news for you - Diego Garcia is part of British Indian Ocean territories! How can we invade our own guys!!

See, you can tell I'm getting fething old. I only know about Diego because its the best draft in the RM, you can get two years billeted there getting pissed and shagging American women... but I totally forgot the Americans lease it from us for the big ass airbase they have set up there. I totally forgot that part and assumed it was theirs.

mattyrm wrote:but I totally forgot the Americans lease it from us for the big ass airbase they have set up there. I totally forgot that part and assumed it was theirs.

So, what you are saying is that the Americanos have taken over our island (and women hunting grounds) and we need to launch a counter-invasion to kick them off before they can use their superior access to tights, cigarettes and so on to woo all the babes, leaving none for our brave soldiers?

Yeah, USMC boot has probably gotten softer since '83 by a fair bit.

You want to notionaly invade the US that has the 2nd amendment?...wait in fact...we surrender...you can have Paris Hilton and Kim Kardasian as long as you keep their show and antics on your TV stations

Amaya wrote:Yeah, USMC boot has probably gotten softer since '83 by a fair bit.

I had a job hauling sheet rock for 9 months before boot camp. There were DI's that would have pitched over trying to do that job, so boot was never a physical challange for me.
As a series secretary, I had to deliver rifle counts to the series assistant DI, and several times he would complain to me about new regulations that would be coming in that would make boot camp easier. His complaints would go on for 10 minute stretches sometimes to the point when I returned to my own platoon, my DI's would ask me if I'd had a good conversation with my "dad".

Relapse wrote:

Amaya wrote:Yeah, USMC boot has probably gotten softer since '83 by a fair bit.

I had a job hauling sheet rock for 9 months before boot camp. There were DI's that would have pitched over trying to do that job, so boot was never a physical challange for me.
As a series secretary, I had to deliver rifle counts to the series assistant DI, and several times he would complain to me about new regulations that would be coming in that would make boot camp easier. His complaints would go on for 10 minute stretches sometimes to the point when I returned to my own platoon, my DI's would ask me if I'd had a good conversation with my "dad".

We went on the piss with our DIs after we passed out of training, we were drunk in a club and I told my troop stripey that I dipped my ballbag in his tea one time I made it for him, and he headbutted me.

I was making it up as well, as If I would dip my gonads in hot tea!

One of my DI's was a Navy Cross winner and the kind of guy you'd jump off a cliff for if he asked you. He didn't allow slacking or put up with any gak, and God help the recruit that pissed him off.
When we graduated boot, though, and I camme up to him to shake his hand, his eyes were red and he looked like he was going to lose it. That was the closest I came to breaking down in boot, and I could barely say thanks for the training.

I don't think anyone would have trouble believing mattyrm would dip anything in just about anything.

Matty: "That cup of tea looks hot"
Instigator: "Matty if your scared just say you scared and be done with it"
Matty " "

Back on topic, they could have just created a fictional Asian alliance and throw in a line of dialogue about "today China and North Korea announced they were joining the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere" and then had generic evil flags and generic foreign baddies.

China would still whine but the studio probably would not be blacklisted.

Oh well. They made a movie about the spirit of America fighting for freedom, and then backed down at the first sign of resistance.

Pass.

Saw the trailer when I went to see Total Recall.

Someone behind me shouted 'Murica Mother Fahker!

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Oh well. They made a movie about the spirit of America fighting for freedom, and then backed down at the first sign of resistance.

Best one-line movie review, ever.

I know some here consider the origonal to be part of their cultural heritage or something, but this looks like it will suck.

Potentially the worst remake of Went the Day Well put to celluloid.

George Spiggott wrote:I know some here consider the origonal to be part of their cultural heritage or something

I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever say that, or allude to such a thing. At best it is a Cult Classic, but that would probably be a bit much.

Wait Thor is fighting the North Koreans now?

Frazzled wrote:Wait Thor is fighting the North Koreans now?

We assume they're just gonna go with generic asians wearing nazi uniforms and speaking in russian accents

I hadn't even heard of Red Dawn until I saw the trailer for Homefront.

It looks like Homefront: The Low To No Budget Movie.

Huffy wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Wait Thor is fighting the North Koreans now?

We assume they're just gonna go with generic asians wearing nazi uniforms and speaking in russian accents

I was hoping for Napoleonic uniforms and realy stereotyped Korean accents like Ms. Swan.

I'll see it, DGAF about the political implications. Thor. Explosions. COMBLOC Weapons. I'm Sold.

So a bunch of teen's and twenty somethings fight one asian lookin guy...

But it's epic because he's aimbotting.