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Any unit with a psyker will get 5+ DtW, it doesn't matter whether they're equal or lower. A unit getting 4+ is unlikely though and that's where your mastery levels would have an impact.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Thanks for providing tactical analysis gloomfang. But with mastery level two, and mastery level 3 its gonna be rare that a unit is gonna have a 5+ dtw.

You have the rule wrong.

Just a unit: 6+ DtW
Unit has a psyker in it: 5+
Unit has a psyker with a higher level then the psyker casting the power: 4+

Eldrad casting Misfortune on a unit of Stealers with a Broodlord. The Stealers get a 5+ DtW from the Broodlord even though it is LV3 vs LV1.

EDIT: Ninja'ed

Also it sounds like you have given yourself an extra power and people are not trying to DtW properly. Might be part of how you are wrecking stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
And at 1500 its a rare if not nonexistent chance of meeting an army that can provide both a solid gunline, a couple of fliers AND a good tarpit due to needing to be able to TAC. Im not sure why boneswords are especially scary, ID is kinda irrelavant to a unit of 1 wound models. As to the tfire and hive guard, i would still get a rerollable armour save and am toughness 6. So im glad and very appreciative for your contribution, and the chance to plan out tactical options for dealing with these problems :-)

The Wraithlords, Farseer and Eldrad do not have EW. The Wraithlords in particular do not have an Invuln either, so every wound can kill them and Sv3+ means they don't get saves against most Force or boneswords. Your army falls apart if Eldrad and/or the Farseer dies (and they would be target #1 for me anyway). You have the RoW for some protection against Force Weapons, but dual swords means that one wound that makes it past your invuln will probably kill them.

As for the Hiveguard/T'fire, it sounded like you were counting on the coversave. I guess you only meant that for things that were AP3.

And I am trying to figure out how I would fight this if I see it on the table. Honestly I would take my Swarmlord deathstar into the heart of it just to see what happens.

Need to check the Eldat FAQ to see how EW and wraithconnons work now.

I just am confused at how you keep patting yourself in the back over this "combo" of yours. What other 3 troop choices do you have in this list? They can't be anything substantial when this units alone houses 800 or more points of your army. I just can't see how you would win any game that has objectives when someone could easily kill off your other 3 troop choices.

When it comes down to it, 800 pts of your army (over half) is in one unit that can move 6" and shoot only 12". If I ran into that, I'd ignore them.

If I ran into that, I'd ignore them

In fairness, that'd be pretty hard to do in either Relic or Emperor's Will.

Im just confused why you seem so confident. 18 inch range is suprisingly sufficient razgriz, especially when the unit can be so dang resilient. And its quite simple to position that unit so that you cant "ignore it." And its the specific composition of my army list that makes every unit a thorn in your backside. The only deathstar you can afford to ignore is a cc only slow moving one. If its got range, its a threat

Thanks for the correction on dtw guys, but luckily, debuffing most units isnt a large problem and the ones i do need to actively debuff, i.e. maledictions, are highly unlikely to be accompanied by a psyker.

I think if the swarm lord made it into combat unscathed, id be in trouble for sure, but luckily, hes not a flier, and i have snipers. Nothing is ever a sure thing but i feel i could handle it, if not he would sure handle me
* where did the swarm lord touch you?*
*points to court molestation doll*
*Dear god is there no decency?!!*

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Thanks for the correction on dtw guys, but luckily, debuffing most units isnt a large problem and the ones i do need to actively debuff, i.e. maledictions, are highly unlikely to be accompanied by a psyker.

I think if the swarm lord made it into combat unscathed, id be in trouble for sure, but luckily, hes not a flier, and i have snipers. Nothing is ever a sure thing but i feel i could handle it, if not he would sure handle me
* where did the swarm lord touch you?*
*points to court molestation doll*
*Dear god is there no decency?!!*

Nids. We have more psykers per square inch than any other army =)
Really. My 1500pt list has 6 of them with 15 powers between them.

And there is no way in heck I would take SL (and I have played almost every game in 6th with him) into that unit. Lack of EW makes taking him into wraithguard a dicy prospect at best. The real way I'd deal with it would be my unit of 15 gargoyles screening for my unit of 4 Shrikes with Dual Bone, ScyTal and TS. I'd probably keep Catalyst on my Tervigon and cast FNP on the shrikes and use my BLords/SL to try and get OM onto the unit as that would get rid of the ID problem for at least the charge.
Deathleaper would eat one unit of pathfinders. One of my Stealer units would eat the other. Take SL with Prime w/LW/BS and 1 TG w/LW into the Wraithlords.
Tervigon and termigaunts go and sit on objectives and deal with the Guardians. Probably with help from my other stealer unit.

All theory hammer at this point. I'd have to crunch numbers to see what would happen.

Why do you keep saying "the unit" when it's just a unit of Wraithguard with attached Eldrad and Farseer, and two separate Wraithlords? This all cannot attach....

Emp. wrote:
Why do you keep saying "the unit" when it's just a unit of Wraithguard with attached Eldrad and Farseer, and two separate Wraithlords? This all cannot attach....

I assumed that he ment that it was going to move as a unit so that the Wraithlords would need to be within 6" of the Farseer/Eldrad.

Emp. wrote:
Why do you keep saying "the unit" when it's just a unit of Wraithguard with attached Eldrad and Farseer, and two separate Wraithlords? This all cannot attach....

When i say unit, i am referring to eldrad the wraithguard, secondsry farseer and the mandatory spiritseer. The wraithlords are ancillary to "the unit" not a literal part of it.

@gloomfang That being said, the wraithlords are able to safely range 12" away from the "unit." And gloom, how much of that could you fit in 1500 points? That was a unit of genestealers (10 atleast i would imagine) a unit of 15 goyels, a unit of shrikes w lw, bs, deathleaper, tervigon with some gaunts, swarmlord a trygon prime and others!? That is a bit scary (read fething terrifying). Quick question tho, can a blord use Objuration mech.? He has bs 0 doesnt he? Doesnt that disallow that?

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
at 1500 its a rare if not nonexistent chance of meeting an army that can provide both a solid gunline, a couple of fliers AND a good tarpit due to needing to be able to TAC.

You've clearly never played against guard or 'crons. Both of them are able to bring a myriad of fliers, tar pit you with cheap units and set up a decent gunline all in 1500 points.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
@gloomfang That being said, the wraithlords are able to safely range 12" away from the "unit." And gloom, how much of that could you fit in 1500 points? That was a unit of genestealers (10 atleast i would imagine) a unit of 15 goyels, a unit of shrikes w lw, bs, deathleaper, tervigon with some gaunts, swarmlord a trygon prime and others!? That is a bit scary (read fething terrifying). Quick question tho, can a blord use Objuration mech.? He has bs 0 doesnt he? Doesnt that disallow that?

Any psyker can use OM as it is a Maldiction and not a PSA or Witchfire.
And it was dual swords on the Shirkes, not LW/BS.

Here is the 1500pt list off the top of my head.

Off the top of my head the list is

HQ:
Swarmlord with 2TG/LW
Tyranid Prime with Scytal/Bone/Lash

Elites:
Deathleaper
2x Zoans

Troops:
Tervigon :Cat and Onslaught.
10 Temrigaunts
5x Genesteals +1 Broodlord with TS
5x Genesteals +1 Broodlord with TS

FA:
15 Garygoyles
4 Shrikes: TS/dual sword

Didn't mention my Zoans becasue with RoW they are unreliable.

Wow, that beast! Not to demean your list i was, however, expecting worse haha. Ya, it would have to be well orchastrated but i think i could handle that, from a distance, carefully, with thick adamantium gloves....

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Wow, that beast! Not to demean your list i was, however, expecting worse haha. Ya, it would have to be well orchastrated but i think i could handle that, from a distance, carefully, with thick adamantium gloves....

Still tweaking it for 6th. I think I have to dump the Swarmlord at 1500pts as he costs to much. If I do that then I might as well rewite the entire list.

My list is a pretty vanilla list as far as Nids go. There are much worse ones out there. I just think that the wraithstar concept has a few to many weaknesses when it comes to Nids.

Should really work well against GK though.

Im just curious why someone is so surprised that a 700ish point unit, is awesome at beating normal sized units? Its kind of a no brainer. I can make a huge 30 boy blob, led by Mad Dok all with cyborks and all with FNP and all Ard boyz. So they would be 4+/5++ and have FNP. That unit also smashes normal units pretty good, but its 2-3 times the cost of your average unit.

The point of the matter is that I am giving my Wraithguard either a 4++ invul save rerollable or im giving them a 2+ rerollable cover save.
It's not supposed to destroy your whole army, but if you don't deal with it, it will destroy it.
I've haven't faced many armies that can even deal with this unit.

Essentually I have my deathstar move up take fire, move up take fire, then kill what ever they shoot at. All the while my "squishy" stuff takes out easy targets.
You have to make a decision, do you smash into my wall or do you go around it?... The problem is, if you try to avoid it, my supporting units will eat you. Plain and simple.
If you crash into it, then you will lose many more points than my whole deathstar is worth.

You confuse your opponent with the choices, because it isn't an easy choice.

Pathfinders are my favorite other scoring unit, I like to take 2 squads of 6. And I also take 1 or 2 wave serpants with dire avengers in them. So I have 3 really resilient troop choices and 2 in transports. This is how I normally run my troops for my Wraith list.

KingCracker, we are just saying that this deathstar is really good for the amount of firepower you get and how resilient it is.

What if you go second? And no powers go off? And someone alpha strikes you hard?

In your plan, you move up and take fire..... thats only if they decide to fire at your deathstar. If shooting it will get me no where.... Im not going to shoot at it. I will instead shoot your LD8 pathfinders and make them run off their objective. Your deathstar, if I am attempting to keep my distance, will at best reach me in turn three or at worst never.

I am saying this because I run a wraithwall myself. And I know how it works and how to stay away from it. on a 6' X 4' board.... 12" range is horrible. Over half your army only becomes good when within 12".

This being said, the 4+ invuln is really awesome for wraithguard that get hit with powerfists and hammers. As those usually smear them to pieces.

For Something more fluffy and just as good in my opinion, I would take the forgeworld wraithseer as my second HQ, giving me access to a 36" large blast D-cannon. He can then give a 4+ feel no pain the the wraithguard.

My pathfinders are usually fine, people try to kill them. But when I tell them I have a 2+ Cover save, they are usually ignored.
However I had one time where someone rolled up and flamed them and killed 4 of the 5. that was a bad game lols. Never faced the army b4 and just being a newb.

I am not discouting the wraithwalls disadvantages, but there is ways to mitigate them.
I only have started playing the wraithwall in 6th. and so far I love it. It's a deathstar that has only been totally killed twice in almost 20 games. and has scored more times than i can remember, and has killed HQ's and other deathstars alike.
I find in 6th, or at least the way I play them, they work really well, and my record proves my point.
I have a local tourney in 2 weeks that I am getting ready for, and I will post my results. I'll let everyone know how it goes. I will even probably do a battle report for the tourney.
IMHO Wraithwall is a viable option in 6th for fun and for fluff.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Thanks for providing tactical analysis gloomfang. But with mastery level two, and mastery level 3 its gonna be rare that a unit is gonna have a 5+ dtw.

I figure that against paper plane deldar with venom spam, i should be able to handely shoot them down with the units i have. Dont forget that i am never pidgeon holed into running into my opponents guns. I can still determine if i need to make them come to me, while guided fire picks them off. The real threat to this, would be fliers, but can be mitigated by rushing forward to minimize the damage a flier can do before they fly over. And at 1500 its a rare if not nonexistent chance of meeting an army that can provide both a solid gunline, a couple of fliers AND a good tarpit due to needing to be able to TAC. :-)

if you spend 750 pts on a death star that has a 12(6" night shield) range then you are going to get outshot by DE. 1500 points of Venoms, Ravagers, and Raiders in almost any combination will outshoot anything CWE can field for 750. Not just outshoot but cripple and destroy in a few turns with virtually no losses. After that your cover save might be impressive but it wont save you from a combine assault, especially if you can only down one vehicle a turn.

So DE can out shoot CWE? lol... They may have cheap vehicles but CWE can go toe to toe with DE. CWE can crank out about the same number of shot a DE can. BUT, BUT, mine are str 6 and can hurt vehicles yours are poison which cannot. It all balances, but to say DE is better shooting is funny, cause its not true lols.

Nologik wrote:
So DE can out shoot CWE? lol... They may have cheap vehicles but CWE can go toe to toe with DE. CWE can crank out about the same number of shot a DE can. BUT, BUT, mine are str 6 and can hurt vehicles yours are poison which cannot. It all balances, but to say DE is better shooting is funny, cause its not true lols.

when you spend 50% of your points on a deathstar that is out of range. Yes DE can outshoot anyone that it has 2:1 odds on.

easily

 Gloomfang wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Wow, that beast! Not to demean your list i was, however, expecting worse haha. Ya, it would have to be well orchastrated but i think i could handle that, from a distance, carefully, with thick adamantium gloves....

Still tweaking it for 6th. I think I have to dump the Swarmlord at 1500pts as he costs to much. If I do that then I might as well rewite the entire list.

My list is a pretty vanilla list as far as Nids go. There are much worse ones out there. I just think that the wraithstar concept has a few to many weaknesses when it comes to Nids.

Should really work well against GK though.

I would not like to see *worse* than this tbh, but I would take what I got : / (read butt whoopin)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

Nologik wrote:
So DE can out shoot CWE? lol... They may have cheap vehicles but CWE can go toe to toe with DE. CWE can crank out about the same number of shot a DE can. BUT, BUT, mine are str 6 and can hurt vehicles yours are poison which cannot. It all balances, but to say DE is better shooting is funny, cause its not true lols.

when you spend 50% of your points on a deathstar that is out of range. Yes DE can outshoot anyone that it has 2:1 odds on.

easily

I think khorn berserkers can outshoot anyone they outnumber 2:1 XD


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Thanks for providing tactical analysis gloomfang. But with mastery level two, and mastery level 3 its gonna be rare that a unit is gonna have a 5+ dtw.

I figure that against paper plane deldar with venom spam, i should be able to handely shoot them down with the units i have. Dont forget that i am never pidgeon holed into running into my opponents guns. I can still determine if i need to make them come to me, while guided fire picks them off. The real threat to this, would be fliers, but can be mitigated by rushing forward to minimize the damage a flier can do before they fly over. And at 1500 its a rare if not nonexistent chance of meeting an army that can provide both a solid gunline, a couple of fliers AND a good tarpit due to needing to be able to TAC. :-)

if you spend 750 pts on a death star that has a 12(6" night shield) range then you are going to get outshot by DE. 1500 points of Venoms, Ravagers, and Raiders in almost any combination will outshoot anything CWE can field for 750. Not just outshoot but cripple and destroy in a few turns with virtually no losses. After that your cover save might be impressive but it wont save you from a combine assault, especially if you can only down one vehicle a turn.

mmmm I highly doubt you could destroy it in a few turns no problem because the rest of my force is made of up long range suppression that would be getting guided. I would play differently and deploy differently against my dark kin. And then your paper planes will have to deal with 3 missile launchers, 2 bright lances, and 10 pathfinder rifles (not ZOMGOSHWTFBBQSAUCW!!! but good)

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
mmmm I highly doubt you could destroy it in a few turns no problem because the rest of my force is made of up long range suppression that would be getting guided. I would play differently and deploy differently against my dark kin. And then your paper planes will have to deal with 3 missile launchers, 2 bright lances, and 10 pathfinder rifles (not ZOMGOSHWTFBBQSAUCW!!! but good)

That's it?

Having played against guard gunlines, blood angel razorspam and grey knights psyback spam I can say with confidence that is probably the least threatening list of heavy weapons I have ever seen.

 Lokas wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
mmmm I highly doubt you could destroy it in a few turns no problem because the rest of my force is made of up long range suppression that would be getting guided. I would play differently and deploy differently against my dark kin. And then your paper planes will have to deal with 3 missile launchers, 2 bright lances, and 10 pathfinder rifles (not ZOMGOSHWTFBBQSAUCW!!! but good)

That's it?

Having played against guard gunlines, blood angel razorspam and grey knights psyback spam I can say with confidence that is probably the least threatening list of heavy weapons I have ever seen.

I didnt say it was the most devistating list dark eldar will ever see now did i? My implication was that i have the tools necessary to fend off a dark eldsr opponent. And its not going to be a walk in the park for them, although not a trudge through a death swamp filled with shattered glass and rusty razorblades either.

Three missile launchers and two bright lances are not enough tools to deal with a good Dark Eldar list by a longshot.

I won't even mention the pathfinder rifles, because you're better off trying to tip over a land raider with a wet fart than use those against vehicles of any kind.

This idea is severely flawed in that it puts all of its eggs into one very expensive, very short ranged, very slow basket and everything has to stand within 6" of that basket to make sure it stays alive. You're either going to be sitting around with your wraithguard going to waste in the backfield, trying to keep your scoring troops alive from an onslaught of splinter cannon shots or you're gonna be moving them up the board, at which point a smart Dark Eldar player will just wait till you're about halfway up the field, turbo-boost and flat-out into your deployment zone and say 'sup to your scoring troops.

 Lokas wrote:
Three missile launchers and two bright lances are not enough tools to deal with a good Dark Eldar list by a longshot.

I won't even mention the pathfinder rifles, because you're better off trying to tip over a land raider with a wet fart than use those against vehicles of any kind.

This idea is severely flawed in that it puts all of its eggs into one very expensive, very short ranged, very slow basket and everything has to stand within 6" of that basket to make sure it stays alive. You're either going to be sitting around with your wraithguard going to waste in the backfield, trying to keep your scoring troops alive from an onslaught of splinter cannon shots or you're gonna be moving them up the board, at which point a smart Dark Eldar player will just wait till you're about halfway up the field, turbo-boost and flat-out into your deployment zone and say 'sup to your scoring troops.

This is the point I was trying to prove. The unit can be ignored by fast armies.

Or a horde can two two medium sized units at it, and it will stay locked for most of the game.

This unit without the Wraith Lords added in is over 700pts, and closer to 800. Half of your army in one unit that has an effective range of 18" is not scary. It is not a threat unless the other player has no idea what it is doing.

I can out maneuver it, while focusing my fire on your other units. They are too few to be a real concern.

On a slightly different Eldar combo, has there been a thread about having a phoenix lord + fortune seer + something that always gets cover/invul?

For example

Fuegan + foot seer + harlequins

or

Baharroth + bike seer + GJB

The idea being that you put the phoenix lord up front and cast fortune, then the PL eats all the AP3 and less shots with his rerollable 2+ save. Anything AP2 or better, he passes it off to the mook behind him with a 2+ LoS (or eats the wound if he fails the LoS).

The Baharroth unit isn't as mobile as a pure jetbike unit because B can't turbo, although he does get a fleet reroll. But it can kill the crap out of vehicle targets with two witchblades (assuming you add a warlock) and work sort of like a discount bike council.

I saw something on Stelek's blog about Maugan Ra + fortune/doom seer + 5 Dark Reapers. As long as they stand in cover with Ra at the front and the seer in the back, they can take a crapload of punishment and wipe out a unit every turn.

 BlueDagger wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
Have you played against cron wraithwing? I know offhand that would wreck this. Also demons or the new CSM dragons will give it fits. Poor wraithguard need about a 10 pt decrease, 6" range increase, or FNP.

Hey blue... WraithLords (with swords) vs the cron wraithwing seems to work.

Faced off 3 times already (2 in 5th, 1 in 6th).

I'd REALLY cringe on the rending rolls... but, evidently my lords scares the dice even more...

EDIT: Demons and that dragon would wreck them tho.

You opponents must have some SERIOUSLY terrible rolls. Not getting 3 6s on the piles of attacks wraith can put out is rather insane. In return your attacks may kill 1, maybe 2?

6 wraiths= 24 attacks, 12 hits, 2 rends ie. Wraithlord survives and costs at least 100 points less. A pair of wraithlords can easily hold wraiths at bay. Personally I feel eldar have the best tools to deal with most necron units very efficiently.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
Have you played against cron wraithwing? I know offhand that would wreck this. Also demons or the new CSM dragons will give it fits. Poor wraithguard need about a 10 pt decrease, 6" range increase, or FNP.

Hey blue... WraithLords (with swords) vs the cron wraithwing seems to work.

Faced off 3 times already (2 in 5th, 1 in 6th).

I'd REALLY cringe on the rending rolls... but, evidently my lords scares the dice even more...

EDIT: Demons and that dragon would wreck them tho.

You opponents must have some SERIOUSLY terrible rolls. Not getting 3 6s on the piles of attacks wraith can put out is rather insane. In return your attacks may kill 1, maybe 2?

6 wraiths= 24 attacks, 12 hits, 2 rends ie. Wraithlord survives and costs at least 100 points less. A pair of wraithlords can easily hold wraiths at bay. Personally I feel eldar have the best tools to deal with most necron units very efficiently.

Lol um, so if things happen perfectly statistical or less the wraiths inflict 2 unsavable wounds... And then next turn kill it, consolidate, and it's now their turn and run off to charge something else... Lol.

Best tools? We have no reliable AA outside of the quadgun with exarch/fuegan. We have fire dragons for AT but with the nerf to serpents it's rough getting there. Our only real counter to wraiths is double farseers for guide/doom/force reroll saves.

Wraith counter.....

3 war walkers with scatter lasers + guide.

Oh wait, thats the counter for almost everything.

But it works.