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 l0k1 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

 DarkKing98 wrote:

True enough but I never used Slaanesh for Bikers for 4th ed, Nurgle was the way to go and it still is

I'm thinking slaanesh. T5 and FNP is a bit better than the mark of nurgle. Most stuff that ignores your armor save wounds you on a 2+ anyway, and then there is all the sniper and or dark eldar crap that always wounds on a 4+ no matter how tough you are.

Not to mention when they assault the slaanesh stuff gets to attack before most enemies. Reducing incoming attacks before they happen is a nice boon. Then you get that sweet feel no pain save on top of your armor save or turbo boost invulnerable!

I've got a whole heap of bikes painted up and might grab some more.

I was thinking the same thing. Everyone is so excited about +1 toughness so things don't get insta popped, but they are still 1 wound models(if I recall). Yeah it makes them harder to wound, but charge in with hammer of wrath, then make normal attacks at I5 then laugh as whatever is left tries to wound you back.

it is also a cost thing. 2ppm vs 6ppm. so a unit of 10 is 40 points different. That more than pays for the icon of excess giving you fnp AND you get +1 combat res.

IoS sounds good. Not playing against many DE or other poisoned shenangians makes me lean towards nurgle, but I like the sound of I5 T5 FNP...

A little math;

How many bolter rounds it takes to kill a T6 Nurgle Biker: 27

27 * .66~ = 18 * .166~ = 3 *.33~ = 1 unsaved wound

How many bolter rounds it takes to kill a T5 Slaanesh biker w/ Icon: 20.25

20.25 * .66~ = 13.5 * .33~ = 4.5 * .33~ = 1.5 *.66~ = 1 unsaved wound.

How many poisoned 4+ rounds it takes to kill a T6 Nurgle Biker: 9

9 * .66~ = 6 * .5 = 3 * .33~ = 1 unsaved wound

How many poisoned 4+ rounds it takes to kill a T5 Slaanesh biker w/ Icon: 13.5

13.5 * .66~ = 9 * .5 = 4.5 * .33~ = 1.5 *.66~ = 1 unsaved wound

How many Meltagun rounds it takes to kill a T6 Nurgle biker: 2.7

2.7 * .66~ = 1.8 * .833~ = 1.5 * .66~ = 1 unsaved wound

How many Meltagun rounds it takes to kill a T5 Slaanesh biker: 4.05

4.05 * .66~ = 2.7 * .833~ = 2.25 * .66~ = 1.5 * .66~ = 1 unsaved wound

How many Plasma Gun rounds it takes to kill a T6 Nurgle Biker: 3.7499~

3.7499~ * .66~ = 2.25 * .66~ = 1.5 * .66~ = 1 unsaved wound

How many Plasma Gun rounds it takes to kill a T5 Slaanesh Biker: 4.05

4.05 * .66~ = 2.7 * .833~ = 2.25 * .66~ = 1.5 * .66~ = 1 unsaved wound

How many Lasgun rounds it takes to kill a T6 Nurgle Biker: 36

36 * .5 = 18 * .166~ = 3 * .33 = 1 unsaved wound.

How many Lasgun rounds it takes to kill a T5 Slaanesh biker: 54

54 * .5 = 27 * .166~ = 4.5 * .33~ = 1.5 * .66~ = 1 unsaved wound.

Conclusion;

Holy gak these guys are durable. The fact that it took multiple meltagun and plasma gun rounds just to plink off a single biker at a time (between high toughness, jink saves and feel no pain where applicable) makes these guys just about immune to a single unit's shooting phase unless it can take more than 2 of any given special weapon. The nurgle biker performs better against Bolters and the Slaanesh bikers perform better against Lasguns and anything that denies the advantages of armor or toughness. Overall, I'd say Slaanesh is better but you do face more bolters than any other basic troop weapon so don't count Nurgle out.

Couple things to keep in mind; I did this all assuming they had moved but not turbo-boosted, I did not do any close combat calculations and I did this instead of writing the essay that's due tomorrow so my math might be off. Also, dice don't tend to roll between two numbers, so view it as 4-5 shots instead of 4.05 or what-have-you.

10 bikers, MoS and IoE, power weapon and melta bombs on the AC and take Huron or Ahriman for the D3 infiltrate and a normal lord on a bike with a murder sword and laugh as you 1st turn charge. =P

Drial87 wrote:
10 bikers, MoS and IoE, power weapon and melta bombs on the AC and take Huron or Ahriman for the D3 infiltrate and a normal lord on a bike with a murder sword and laugh as you 1st turn charge. =P

Can't 1st turn charge with infiltrating units unless you go 2nd.

Juggernauts are also calvary so a MOK lord could also keep up, too bad Kharne is stuck on foot.

I'm thinking 10 with veterans of the long war, and either mok+wrath or mos+excess. Maybe add 2 melta guns for opening transports.

Dam, didn't realize 1st trun charge didn't work anymore!

10 bikers as a HQ bus backed up by 2 units of 5 spawn would make a nasty FA + HQ option. The only problem is how to balance it with the rest of the list. There are a lot of ways to do it, the problem to avoid would be getting the FA in too fast while the rest of the army twiddles their thumbs.

 schadenfreude wrote:
10 bikers as a HQ bus backed up by 2 units of 5 spawn would make a nasty FA + HQ option. The only problem is how to balance it with the rest of the list. There are a lot of ways to do it, the problem to avoid would be getting the FA in too fast while the rest of the army twiddles their thumbs.

With demon allies you get your first wave turn 1. So there is plenty of support.

Kevlar wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
10 bikers as a HQ bus backed up by 2 units of 5 spawn would make a nasty FA + HQ option. The only problem is how to balance it with the rest of the list. There are a lot of ways to do it, the problem to avoid would be getting the FA in too fast while the rest of the army twiddles their thumbs.

With demon allies you get your first wave turn 1. So there is plenty of support.

+ termites DSing in.

Also you can use allies, oblitorators and more to get stuck in with the rest of them.

Drial87 wrote:
10 bikers, MoS and IoE, power weapon and melta bombs on the AC and take Huron or Ahriman for the D3 infiltrate and a normal lord on a bike with a murder sword and laugh as you 1st turn charge. =P

Asides from no first turn charges, it allows you to infiltrate d3 infantry. Bit of a "D'oh!" when you read that and a whole host of funky ideas fly out the window lol.


infiltrating mauler/forgefiends? ...CREEEEEEEEEwaitwhatamisayingHUUUUUUUUURON!!!!!!

Kevlar wrote:

 DarkKing98 wrote:

True enough but I never used Slaanesh for Bikers for 4th ed, Nurgle was the way to go and it still is

I'm thinking slaanesh. T5 and FNP is a bit better than the mark of nurgle. Most stuff that ignores your armor save wounds you on a 2+ anyway, and then there is all the sniper and or dark eldar crap that always wounds on a 4+ no matter how tough you are.

Not to mention when they assault the slaanesh stuff gets to attack before most enemies. Reducing incoming attacks before they happen is a nice boon. Then you get that sweet feel no pain save on top of your armor save or turbo boost invulnerable!

I've got a whole heap of bikes painted up and might grab some more.

Well, I'll get my Slaanesh Bikers ready, 12 Bikes plus a Doom Rider (model).

 wuestenfux wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

 DarkKing98 wrote:

True enough but I never used Slaanesh for Bikers for 4th ed, Nurgle was the way to go and it still is

I'm thinking slaanesh. T5 and FNP is a bit better than the mark of nurgle. Most stuff that ignores your armor save wounds you on a 2+ anyway, and then there is all the sniper and or dark eldar crap that always wounds on a 4+ no matter how tough you are.

Not to mention when they assault the slaanesh stuff gets to attack before most enemies. Reducing incoming attacks before they happen is a nice boon. Then you get that sweet feel no pain save on top of your armor save or turbo boost invulnerable!

I've got a whole heap of bikes painted up and might grab some more.

Well, I'll get my Slaanesh Bikers ready, 12 Bikes plus a Doom Rider (model).

No rules for doom rider so you'll just have to settle for a slaneesh lord on a bike with a 4+ invo and a murder sword.

I am looking hard at picking up some Chaos bikes as an ally for my IG. Been searching for a fast, hard hitting CC unit that isnt priced through the roof and I think I found it.

Couple quick questions about them. You think a Chaos lord is a better fit for the bikes or can you mount a Sorc on a bike or use a Disc to keep up with them?

Glocknall wrote:
I am looking hard at picking up some Chaos bikes as an ally for my IG. Been searching for a fast, hard hitting CC unit that isnt priced through the roof and I think I found it.

Couple quick questions about them. You think a Chaos lord is a better fit for the bikes or can you mount a Sorc on a bike or use a Disc to keep up with them?

A bike might be better because the disk dosnt grant a +1 to thr toughness

Dont think that matters as much as you use average toughness of the unit I believe. If a bike is available to the Sorc then that would be my choice anyways. HoW and turbo boost and all that.

The sorcerer would have to be tzeentch to get a disc. He couldn't join nurgle or slaanesh bikers. Tzeentch bikers don't seem too attractive.

Kevlar wrote:
The sorcerer would have to be tzeentch to get a disc. He couldn't join nurgle or slaanesh bikers. Tzeentch bikers don't seem too attractive.

You can give him a regular bike from the special issue wargear.

It seems FNP/+initiative has the advantage when applied to a deathstar squad of 10 bikes, but what about MoN as an economic solution when running 3 man MSU bike squads with meltas? In this case, would MoN be considered the better choice?

3x squads of 3x Chaos Bikes (2x Melta, MoN, VotLW) = 333 pts
3x squads of 3x Chaos Bikes (2x Melta, MoS, VotLW, FNP) = 402 pts

Well, I want to experiment with the following:

10 Bikers, 2 Meltas, Mark of Nurgle, Power Weapon, Melta Bomb. Pretty boring and barebones.
2 HQ characters on bikes join them.
2-3 Forgefiends for cover fire and 2 units of plague marines in rhinos on the flanks.

Seems fun.

 Sanctjud wrote:
Well, I want to experiment with the following:

10 Bikers, 2 Meltas, Mark of Nurgle, Power Weapon, Melta Bomb. Pretty boring and barebones.
2 HQ characters on bikes join them.
2-3 Forgefiends for cover fire and 2 units of plague marines in rhinos on the flanks.

Seems fun.

battlecannon. LRBT will give you fits until your 2 meltas get up close and personal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rakarsis wrote:
It seems FNP/+initiative has the advantage when applied to a deathstar squad of 10 bikes, but what about MoN as an economic solution when running 3 man MSU bike squads with meltas? In this case, would MoN be considered the better choice?

3x squads of 3x Chaos Bikes (2x Melta, MoN, VotLW) = 333 pts
3x squads of 3x Chaos Bikes (2x Melta, MoS, VotLW, FNP) = 402 pts

obviously FNP is only good for full squads.

Remember they can snipe that banner out.

 Omegus wrote:
Remember they can snipe that banner out.

If they roll sixes to hit, not too many shooty characters out there, or get a good scatter with barrage. And even with all that you still have to actually kill the guy which isn't going to happen very often with your limited directed hits.

As far as Slaaneshi Bikers go use the Lord with the Steed of Slaanesh, the whole unit gets to outflank now (with acute senses). Throw in the Brand (ap 3 torrent flamer yay) and do crazy template tricks the turn you come in.

Of course pie plates of AP3 str 8 will hurt.
Gotta pray on Jink saves I suppose.

The list I'm thinking up will have other options to try and silence those tanks though.

 Sanctjud wrote:
Well, I want to experiment with the following:

10 Bikers, 2 Meltas, Mark of Nurgle, Power Weapon, Melta Bomb. Pretty boring and barebones.
2 HQ characters on bikes join them.
2-3 Forgefiends for cover fire and 2 units of plague marines in rhinos on the flanks.

Seems fun.

MoN bikes seem extremely effective - at least on paper. They are what every C:SM bike wants to be. They have a higher toughness and an additional CCW.

I'm seriously considering making a khorne squad simply because I love the idea of a lord on a Juggernaught leading a bike squad. Its not as effective -- but sometimes you got to go with what you think is cool.

As you well know, Sanctjud, battle cannons are not the biggest concern. If you played bike armies for a while, you learn quickly how to spread your models out so they can take advantage of the large footprint to minimize BC hits. I rarely had more than 3 models under the pie plate.

Little late to the party but I'm looking to put together a unit or two of bikers for LRBT hunting. I haven't decided on whether to do a death star sized unit outflanking to pop a tank or two, or to go with 2-3 units of 3 with double melta with limited marks.

There's the great debate of Nurgle vs Slaanesh too, but against guardsmen Nurgle seems better, and MEQ Slaanesh seems better.

How have you guys fared so far?

Yes Necro'ing this thread, but there's no active CSM 6th Ed. tatctics thread it seems.

Well, against lasguns T6 and T5 are exactly the same, so having FnP is better.

Yea, I got that backwards. My bad! Gonna have to rework my whole list regardless. Hard to squeeze a Land Raider and a Defiler in to a 1250 list.

Geez, play bigger games. This game really doesn't function in a balanced way under 1500.

I want to, just time's a limit and who I play with can't field 1.5k or 2k yet.

Sorry to be that guy but:

5 bikes, mos, ioe, lightning claw + meltabomb 180ish (i love the look of this)
VS
7 screamers 175 pts

I was thinking:
Survivability to the bikes but the 2w and guranteed invuln does look tasty in cc against cc specialists.
Damage (favorable cc): bikes (meq/i4 or less)
Flexibility (ability to deal with various threats) prolly goes to the screamers with amour bane and ap2 but that said there is melta b for av but thats more a laist ditch attempt rather than a good option.
Mobility: jetbikes vs bikes? screamers win? + the demonic deployment but pretty even?

Or wait till the new CD codex?

Another thing: Im looking in the csm codex- can anyone see where these bikes have tl bolters? is it in the brb or something? i can see references to exchanging them for combis and stuff but... am i know im being stupid/blind but... ?!