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 Grey Templar wrote:
So CSM that buy the CCW are cheaper GHs without Counter Attack.

If you buy the CCW, they are more expensive than Grey Hunters (10 point tax), don't have Know No Fear or Nightfighting, pay more for their first special weapon, and don't get the second one for free.

All in all, they aren't much like Grey Hunters at all.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
So CSM that buy the CCW are cheaper GHs without Counter Attack.

If you buy the CCW, they are more expensive than Grey Hunters (10 point tax), don't have Know No Fear or Nightfighting, pay more for their first special weapon, and don't get the second one for free.

All in all, they aren't much like Grey Hunters at all.

Acute Senses doesn't affact Night Fighting anymore, and is in fact rather useless on Grey Hunters now.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Acute Senses doesn't affact Night Fighting anymore, and is in fact rather useless on Grey Hunters now.

For some reason I thought they replaced that in the errata. I am mistaken.

Point remains, Grey Hunters are still cheaper and/or better than CSM given the same wargear.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Votlw is better than most people give it credit for. Against meq which is the meta votlw increases cc damage by 50% for 1 point per model on csm.

The 2 best builds i can think of is 20 csm with votlw, don't spend the extra points on bolters, and either mok + wrath or mos+ excess.

it is only in the first round of combat. so on the charge your mok pistol and CCW are gonna average 3 hits per base off their 4 attacks. Subsiquent rounds they will average one hit per base.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Acute Senses doesn't affact Night Fighting anymore, and is in fact rather useless on Grey Hunters now.

For some reason I thought they replaced that in the errata. I am mistaken.

Point remains, Grey Hunters are still cheaper and/or better than CSM given the same wargear.

grey hunters are cheaper/ better than any meq in the game

vendettas are cheaper / better than any flyer in the game.

 Exergy wrote:


it is only in the first round of combat. so on the charge your mok pistol and CCW are gonna average 3 hits per base off their 4 attacks. Subsiquent rounds they will average one hit per base.

And heaven forbid you draw necrons or dark eldar as your tournament opponent. 20 marines on foot won't last long.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Acute Senses doesn't affact Night Fighting anymore, and is in fact rather useless on Grey Hunters now.

For some reason I thought they replaced that in the errata. I am mistaken.

Point remains, Grey Hunters are still cheaper and/or better than CSM given the same wargear.

Yeah but that's the point though, you don't want to give them the same wargear. The new Chaos marines are awesome because they give you some of the cheapest space marine statline troops in the game. If I wanted to upgrade a ton of stuff, I'd get another unt. But for a cheap and reliable holding unit, the new CSM are awesome.

 Stoffer wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Acute Senses doesn't affact Night Fighting anymore, and is in fact rather useless on Grey Hunters now.

For some reason I thought they replaced that in the errata. I am mistaken.

Point remains, Grey Hunters are still cheaper and/or better than CSM given the same wargear.

Yeah but that's the point though, you don't want to give them the same wargear. The new Chaos marines are awesome because they give you some of the cheapest space marine statline troops in the game. If I wanted to upgrade a ton of stuff, I'd get another unt. But for a cheap and reliable holding unit, the new CSM are awesome.

For backfield duty cultists are just as good though. As long as you are out of small arms fire range the cultists are just as hard to kill as a marine. And will have 3x as many wounds for the same point cost.

Although not as good, once you take care of the anti vehicle stuff(which the dragon will do a damn good job of doing, it can always hover if you need it to.

Kevlar wrote:

 Stoffer wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Acute Senses doesn't affact Night Fighting anymore, and is in fact rather useless on Grey Hunters now.

For some reason I thought they replaced that in the errata. I am mistaken.

Point remains, Grey Hunters are still cheaper and/or better than CSM given the same wargear.

Yeah but that's the point though, you don't want to give them the same wargear. The new Chaos marines are awesome because they give you some of the cheapest space marine statline troops in the game. If I wanted to upgrade a ton of stuff, I'd get another unt. But for a cheap and reliable holding unit, the new CSM are awesome.

For backfield duty cultists are just as good though. As long as you are out of small arms fire range the cultists are just as hard to kill as a marine. And will have 3x as many wounds for the same point cost.

Deep striking BA assault squads with flamers will eat them. They're not that impervious.

Kevlar wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


it is only in the first round of combat. so on the charge your mok pistol and CCW are gonna average 3 hits per base off their 4 attacks. Subsiquent rounds they will average one hit per base.

And heaven forbid you draw necrons or dark eldar as your tournament opponent. 20 marines on foot won't last long.

or orks, or guard, or nids, or cwe. paying too many points for VotlW or Black Crusade will bite you in the but eventually.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

Kevlar wrote:


For backfield duty cultists are just as good though. As long as you are out of small arms fire range the cultists are just as hard to kill as a marine. And will have 3x as many wounds for the same point cost.

Deep striking BA assault squads with flamers will eat them. They're not that impervious.

They would eat the min sized basic CSM squad too though.

Kevlar wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

Kevlar wrote:


For backfield duty cultists are just as good though. As long as you are out of small arms fire range the cultists are just as hard to kill as a marine. And will have 3x as many wounds for the same point cost.

Deep striking BA assault squads with flamers will eat them. They're not that impervious.

They would eat the min sized basic CSM squad too though.

Not as quickly, and besides, who ever said anything about minimum sized CSM squads?

Forgefiend with 2 hades and a ectoplasma cannon is just a sick amount of str.8. Put behind a defense line and it is nigh impossible to kill.

5 havoks with 4 autocannons are dirt cheap.

Dragon is pretty sick with the vector strike.

MoK Warpsmith with a deamonweapon, ya, 7 attacks + D6 on the charge, ya.

Noise marines are pretty great at eliminating units hiding behind the now ever prevalent aegis defense lines.

Vanilla chaos marines can be fielded in a horde, they can also be few and far between with all the upgrades which is a pretty cool tactical flexibility as they can be geared to do anything.

Raptors and bikes are dirt cheap and make great escorts for super killy lords.

 buddha wrote:
Forgefiend with 2 hades and a ectoplasma cannon is just a sick amount of str.8. Put behind a defense line and it is nigh impossible to kill.

However, being a vehicle, it's only getting a 5+ Cover, right?

 buddha wrote:
MoK Warpsmith with a deamonweapon, ya, 7 attacks + D6 on the charge, ya.

Raptors and bikes are dirt cheap and make great escorts for super killy lords.

I think these both are indicative of where the 'dex is going: cheaper units supporting uber Lords.

Nothing terribly broken, though, yet.

 buddha wrote:
Forgefiend with 2 hades and a ectoplasma cannon is just a sick amount of str.8. Put behind a defense line and it is nigh impossible to kill.

...is there some rule with the ADL? because the forgefiend seems...a bit...oversized to hide behind it?

 Jihallah wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Forgefiend with 2 hades and a ectoplasma cannon is just a sick amount of str.8. Put behind a defense line and it is nigh impossible to kill.

...is there some rule with the ADL? because the forgefiend seems...a bit...oversized to hide behind it?

Only 25% of the model has to covered so as long as the fiend isn't 4x taller than the wall welcome to 6th ed.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Only 25% of the model has to covered so as long as the fiend isn't 4x taller than the wall welcome to 6th ed.

Whilst I realize this, the forgefiend...looks rather large. Like, big enough that potentially 25% isn't covered by the ADL. So instead of the asshattery, how about you just go "Yes, the wall is big enough to cover the model. no there is no special rule required." Or "no, the wall is too short to cover this large model. Drat! back to to the drawingboard!" instead of "welcome to 6th ed."? Might make you look like less of an asshat bro

 buddha wrote:
MoK Warpsmith with a deamonweapon, ya, 7 attacks + D6 on the charge, ya.

But how to deliver him? God I wish Warpsmiths could take a bike.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Votlw is better than most people give it credit for. Against meq which is the meta votlw increases cc damage by 50% for 1 point per model on csm.

The 2 best builds i can think of is 20 csm with votlw, don't spend the extra points on bolters, and either mok + wrath or mos+ excess.

One build that comes to mind:

Huron
Fabius Bile
20 Enhanced CSM with VotIW and CCW, Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess, 2 Meltaguns, Champ with Power Weapon
20 CSM, Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess, 2 Plasma Guns
20 CSM, Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess, 2 Plasma Guns

That gives you 60 Fearless, Feel No Pain Marines who are all potentially infiltrating up into the enemy's face. You can then probably round out the list with some Havocs with Autocannons and perhaps a squad of FNP Slaaneshi Bikers.

I don't think it is too overwhelming, but there are certainly lists that will have trouble dealing with that.

Myth wrote:

That gives you 60 Fearless, Feel No Pain Marines who are all potentially infiltrating up into the enemy's face. You can then probably round out the list with some Havocs with Autocannons and perhaps a squad of FNP Slaaneshi Bikers.

I don't think it is too overwhelming, but there are certainly lists that will have trouble dealing with that.

And 2 Helldrakes systematically destroy them over the course of the game while they stand helplessly about losing half a squad every turn.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Myth wrote:

That gives you 60 Fearless, Feel No Pain Marines who are all potentially infiltrating up into the enemy's face. You can then probably round out the list with some Havocs with Autocannons and perhaps a squad of FNP Slaaneshi Bikers.

I don't think it is too overwhelming, but there are certainly lists that will have trouble dealing with that.

And 2 Helldrakes systematically destroy them over the course of the game while they stand helplessly about losing half a squad every turn.

A Helldrake with a baleflamer, or better two of them, is a pain. Termies withstand them but all MEQ including Bikes will be heavily in danger.

Seems to me that an army can be made out of a host of T5/T6 guys. That's every unit at T5/T6 except maybe Cultists/Zombies.

This is quite a nasty army to face as they would just be tanking all game, being incredibly hard to shift and would do an ok job at whittling down any force that they came across.

I had a look into this and it seems strong.

Puscifer wrote:
Seems to me that an army can be made out of a host of T5/T6 guys. That's every unit at T5/T6 except maybe Cultists/Zombies.

This is quite a nasty army to face as they would just be tanking all game, being incredibly hard to shift and would do an ok job at whittling down any force that they came across.

I had a look into this and it seems strong.

It can work, especially if you can maximize the number of T5 scoring units. It's a shame bikes cannot be troops; mobile T6 troops would be so amazing.

A bunch of enhanced nurgle or slaanesh marines, plus Typhus and some zombies and small Plague Marine squads are more than enough troops with T5 or fnp or huge blobs.

I think we might be onto something. Only downside is guard would eradicate the army in a few short turns.

The 2 best builds i can think of is 20 csm with votlw, don't spend the extra points on bolters, and either mok + wrath or mos+ excess.

How does getting +1 LD increase my damage 50%, ? increasing my damage by 50% would be me getting 50% more attacks i dont understand.

Are you just referring to Mok, getting rage or counter attack? i think that MoS+excess would be better then MoK, but i dunno, im trying out my first combos myself im having mixed results.

 Frecklesonfire wrote:

The 2 best builds i can think of is 20 csm with votlw, don't spend the extra points on bolters, and either mok + wrath or mos+ excess.

How does getting +1 LD increase my damage 50%, ? increasing my damage by 50% would be me getting 50% more attacks i dont understand.

Are you just referring to Mok, getting rage or counter attack? i think that MoS+excess would be better then MoK, but i dunno, im trying out my first combos myself im having mixed results.

Veterans of the Long War also gives Hatred (Space Marines) which allows you to reroll misses in close combat in the first round of combat against Space Marines. Which translates to around 50% more hits against units of equal WS.

It isn't terrible, but it is only for round 1, so can't be relied on too heavily. Between it and Mark of Khorne and Furious Charge from Icon of Wrath, a unit of Chaos Marines can hit with quite a lot of power in round 1 of combat - but if you get stuck in an extended combat, all those bonuses no longer help you.

Fortunatly Hatred: Space Marines applies to 75% of your opponents and half of all codices

It applies to Space Wolves, BAs, DAs, Vanilla marines, Chaos Space Marines, and GKs.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Fortunatly Hatred: Space Marines applies to 75% of your opponents and half of all codices

It applies to Space Wolves, BAs, DAs, Vanilla marines, Chaos Space Marines, and GKs.

Chaos Space Marines are not Space Marines (pg 28)

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the khorne lord on juggernaut with axe of blind fury and melta bombs. 7-13 attacks at WS5, I5, S6, AP2. For 150 points, that's ridiculous.

Without eternal warrior, that's not really cheese.