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Melissia wrote: Can it be non-Marines, too? Phoenix Lords, particularly powerful Warbosses, Assassinorum operatives, probably some hive tyrants or other for the 'nids.
He's specifically asking for a loyalist example.
I'm aware.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
DemetriDominov wrote: I figure that Kharn is the Chaos embodiment of Achilles,chosen among the Gods, has but one weakness, is nearly invincible in cc, and his loyalist equivalent would embody Hector. This therefore negates all but chapter masters, as Hector led the Trojan army. Apparently Hector was devoted to the core, a stalwart defender, fanatically loyal to his kingdom, and a bit of a maniac himself. Most importantly, their duel is that of legend, with Hector losing. If all this is true, then, in my mind there's really only one Chapter Master that can possibly be Kharn's destined equal.
High Marshal Helbrecht of the Black Templars.
Even if I'm wrong, what's to be sure is that whoever it is, it would likely be the best duel of martial skill imaginable. Ever.
Why not go back a good 10,000 years to Helbrecht's predecessor, and say Sigismund instead? Or are we only talking about loyalists in 40k, strictly?
Well Kharn battered down the walls of the Imperial palace and its defenders before succumbing to his wounds while Sigismund defended the Emperor. Then, Sigismund would have likely utterly destroyed Kharn, becuase he had only just earned enough of the Blood God's favor to be sustained through death. Now, 10,000 years after Sigismund's own death, Kharn rages on with more experience in battle than anyone else. If, by a twist of fate, Sigismund were somehow transported in time to face the modern Kharn, the last part of my quote remains true. If that didn't happen, then I guess we go with Helbrecht for now.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/12 05:26:50
DemetriDominov wrote: I figure that Kharn is the Chaos embodiment of Achilles,chosen among the Gods, has but one weakness, is nearly invincible in cc, and his loyalist equivalent would embody Hector. This therefore negates all but chapter masters, as Hector led the Trojan army. Apparently Hector was devoted to the core, a stalwart defender, fanatically loyal to his kingdom, and a bit of a maniac himself. Most importantly, their duel is that of legend, with Hector losing. If all this is true, then, in my mind there's really only one Chapter Master that can possibly be Kharn's destined equal.
High Marshal Helbrecht of the Black Templars.
Even if I'm wrong, what's to be sure is that whoever it is, it would likely be the best duel of martial skill imaginable. Ever.
Why not go back a good 10,000 years to Helbrecht's predecessor, and say Sigismund instead? Or are we only talking about loyalists in 40k, strictly?
Well Kharn battered down the walls of the Imperial palace and its defenders before succumbing to his wounds while Sigismund defended the Emperor. Then, Sigismund would have likely utterly destroyed Kharn, becuase he had only just earned enough of the Blood God's favor to be sustained through death. Now, 10,000 years after Sigismund's own death, Kharn rages on with more experience in battle than anyone else. If, by a twist of fate, Sigismund were somehow transported in time to face the modern Kharn, the last part of my quote remains true. If that didn't happen, then I guess we go with Helbrecht for now.
So considering it took days of titan weapons volley to crack the imperial palace... i highly doubt kharn would make a dent... also kharn hasn't had a true 10,000 years time flows differently in the warp. No denying it was long but not relative to physical time
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/12 06:48:21
" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog
Kharn has no equal. He is the blood gods finest champion, honed to perfection over countless centuries of battle and strife. Thread closed
On a slightly less biased note, in his heresy days the likes of lucius, loken and some others would probably rival him.
These days I think you'd be hard pushed to find someone to rival him, the likes of Calgar, Shrike etc, whilst being able to put up a good fight I do feel like Kharn still does have a real edge.
Calgar or Dante have the best shot of Chapter Masters IMO. Not counting Grey Knights, Crowe could possibly manage it, Draigo could kill Kharn with one hand while taking a piss with the other.
Honestly, while Kharn has a lot of hype, I can't really think of a whole lot that he's really done to earn it, in terms of fighting strong opponents. So it is hard to get an accurate gauge.
He did do a number on Loken and Torgaddon two on one though, which is impressive.
While Kharn could cause wounds like no other Arjac has the advantage of outright murdering Kharn should he connect with any hits. Really the main problem Kharn faces is even with all of his attacks and ap and high strength and decent init he is still auto-killable by standard strength 8 weaponry. A storm shield will do an amazing job at stopping his fury and all you really need is one strike and he will have a meager 5+ invul between him and being auto killed.
In fluff this is accurate too, Arjac fights the krakens of Fenris and is Logan Grimnar's Champion he'd be hard pressed to bested in combat and he gets counter attack just like his enemy so they are just a fierce in combat charged or not.
Infact If Arjac was lucky he could chuck that teleporting hammer of his and take off Kharn's head in one throw.
Thanks for the my daily laugh.....
In game terms Statiscally Kharn will just kill him before he even knows whats going on, lets do alil theory hammer Arjac clocks in at 188 pts to Kharns' 160, 28 pts worth charge priority for Kharn?
So Kharn charges in, Arjac Counter Atks, Kharn comes in with 7 atks hitting on 2's with Hatred, followed by wound on 2's with gorechild, so lets say 6 wounds, storm shield saves 4? Sounds like a dead Arjac to me
Now in fluff terms Kharn has been around since the Crusades, killed many times, and killing innumerable more, He survived Angron's beserk onslaught, in his early years, and only grew more fierce as time went on, Some upstart champion is not Kharn's equal, Logan would be hard pressed to contend.
Considering if arjac charges in before he declares he could just throw his hammer and slay kharn with a pretty high probably with a percision strike is pretty humorus to me too... LOS is only a 1 in 6 chance of failing but it is still enough to cause a very big cry baby CSM player in moments. Assuming he is lucky enough to dodge the hammer when Arjac accepts or issues the challenge Kharn yet again has a chance to be worthless to the group or just straight up start killing his own unit. Arjac is able to take punishment very well and you should never underestimate the abilities of 3+ saves, because if nothing else Arjac's company will win the battle in the end even if he manages be killed in the first round. But the sheer potential of 1 strike and ur dead clearly makes him an equal for Kharn, because luck or unluck doesn't matter no one is "unbeatable" long as all it takes it 1 strike to deal with him.
Kharn is too unstable to look into generalities like this, you forget he could roll a 1 and not even attack, or
Arjack one lucky strike ( Kharn is down ),not to mention Grimnar (GK grandmaster in one slap)...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
I would love to actually know what Kharn's kill counter is sitting at just now, it annoyed me that they keep mentioning it clicking every time he kills in the 'Chosen of Khorne' audiobook but they never tell you what the value is :(
I wouldn't say Kharn gets any more hype really, no more than any other chaos character anyways.
It's been 10,000 years since the Heresy and he did well there.
He's the chosen champion of the god of battle and slaughter.
There really isn't an equal when it comes down to sheer fighting prowess, I think.
The Achilles comparison is valid - aristea, the Homeric idea of courage in battle, was actually described by one of my favorite authors as a kind of "berzerker kill-fest where the hero in question slaughters a hundred, two hundred men in one furious moment."
That almost perfectly describes the way I feel Kharn is in the fluff.
I've never really found Kharn to be all that impressive personally,showings wise, but that's more to do with personal bias I suppose.
After getting his ass handed to him by Loken I've never been able to take him all that seriously. When Kharn gets pinned to the dozerblades of the Land Raider, the book describes him as growling and frothing on the dozer blades while the Land Raider carries him away. lol...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/10/12 09:45:09
I find Kharn to be pretty impressive but then I'm biased the other way BlaxicanX.
I wouldn't say Loken handed his ass to him, also considering Kharn survived this and went on to be probably one of the most powerful World Eaters and possibly the greatest champion Khorne has ever had/will have.
In terms of martial prowess and fighting ability I think you'd be hard pushed to beat Kharn, although I think Lucius would probably have good odds (although he's not a loyalist anymore.) As in terms of a one on one, Lucius has to rank pretty high I'd think.
So considering it took days of titan weapons volley to crack the imperial palace... i highly doubt kharn would make a dent... also kharn hasn't had a true 10,000 years time flows differently in the warp. No denying it was long but not relative to physical time
Sorry, I minced words, yes, he didn't personally chop down the walls at the Imperial palace, that'd just be silly. He did however lead the charge and chop down hundreds, if not thousands of loyalists defenders in an orgy of blood that had him gain enough of Khorne's favor to not let him die though he was pretty much Swiss cheese by the end of the fight.
True, but to be fair he may have even had a much longer time than 10,000 years. The warp is unpredictable, and the only thing constant is that Kharn has had an infinitely longer amount of time than Sanguinius to train, because Sanguinius is dead.
Unit1126PLL wrote:I don't know.
It's been 10,000 years since the Heresy and he did well there.
He's the chosen champion of the god of battle and slaughter.
There really isn't an equal when it comes down to sheer fighting prowess, I think.
The Achilles comparison is valid - aristea, the Homeric idea of courage in battle, was actually described by one of my favorite authors as a kind of "berzerker kill-fest where the hero in question slaughters a hundred, two hundred men in one furious moment."
That almost perfectly describes the way I feel Kharn is in the fluff.
And remember, though Homer (a Greek) depicted Hector (his enemy, a Trojan) as a coward in his death, the battle between Achilles and Hector probably looked something closer to this (PG-13):
Spoiler:
In all actuality, if Kharn truly is Khorne's Achillies, he has no equal in combat, only a vengeful boltround to Kharn's face is really going to stop him.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/12 15:43:59
In regards to single combat, there's few equivalents to Kharn. Lucius is a relatively even match, working out the math Kharn has a slight edge. Hespirax is in a similar situation. Kharn will trash Typhus where Lucius will struggle to do anything at all. Essentially Kharn is a fire and forget weapon, you point him at someone and he destroys them. As a battle leader, he leaves a lot to be desired, but as a melee fighter, in single combat, there's relatively little that will stand up to him. Lysander will do so rather well, as can Calgar, but they've got 3++sv's and S8/10 combat weapons, they aren't really "duelists" but overblown wrecking balls.
While Kharn could cause wounds like no other Arjac has the advantage of outright murdering Kharn should he connect with any hits. Really the main problem Kharn faces is even with all of his attacks and ap and high strength and decent init he is still auto-killable by standard strength 8 weaponry. A storm shield will do an amazing job at stopping his fury and all you really need is one strike and he will have a meager 5+ invul between him and being auto killed.
In fluff this is accurate too, Arjac fights the krakens of Fenris and is Logan Grimnar's Champion he'd be hard pressed to bested in combat and he gets counter attack just like his enemy so they are just a fierce in combat charged or not.
Infact If Arjac was lucky he could chuck that teleporting hammer of his and take off Kharn's head in one throw.
Problem is that Kharn's fluff is no longer truly properly reflected, he really should have Eternal Warrior. In the HH books, he gets run over by a rhino and carried off impaled and apparently dead on its dozer-blade spikes, lives through that then falls again apparently dead during the siege of the Emperor's palace, etc. He used to be immune to Instant Death, then the 4E book came along and the new book basically amounts to a minor facelift of the 4E book.
Also, if Kharn gets off a charge on Arjac, on average Arjac will die without ever swinging. 7 attacks, hitting on 2's, wounding on 2's, Kharn will inflict two such wounds typically through the Stormshield. Without a charge, it's a more 50/50 prospect.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/12 20:20:02
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Kharn is the embodiment of close combat for the gods of Chaos.
He is an immensely powerful "bogeyman" for the loyalists and he serves his purpose. The thing is, nearly ANYONE of the loyalists could beat Kharn with the quality of writing that exists now-a-days. The loyalists, by the nature of the novels, are protected by extremely powerful plot armor. No popular main character would ever be allowed to lose to Kharn because to lose to him is FINAL. Well, that is, unless this is their intent. Kharn is 40k's perfect plot thread ender.
It is also important to remember which Kharn we speak of, pre- or post heresy or whether you're talking about the game or the book fluff.
That said, as much as I don't want to mention his name and try to ignore his existence, Draigo is clearly everyones nemesis. Be you a demon-primarch or the Chaos gods lord of combat.
I mean, I agree Kharn should be a rompmachine in one on one, martial combat, but he is just lacking the showings that some other Chaos Champions have, like Ahriman or Abaddon.
Rysaer wrote: Kharn has no equal. He is the blood gods finest champion
Which means he's good at screaming at any rate. I'm sure we can find someone who can make him scream more.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Not really into the fluff but.... If Kharn is such a badass why hasn't he been promoted to Daemon Prince status?
Thus, After having thus successively taken each member of the community in its powerful grasp and fashioned him at will, the supreme power then extends its arm over the whole community. It covers the surface of society with a network of small complicated rules, minute and uniform, through which the most original minds and the most energetic characters cannot penetrate, to rise above the crowd. The will of man is not shattered, but softened, bent, and guided; men are seldom forced by it to act, but they are constantly restrained from acting. Such a power does not destroy, but it prevents existence; it does not tyrannize, but it compresses, enervates, extinguishes, and stupefies a people, till each nation is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd
-Alexis de Tocqueville.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Vaktathi wrote: In regards to single combat, there's few equivalents to Kharn. Lucius is a relatively even match, working out the math Kharn has a slight edge. Hespirax is in a similar situation. Kharn will trash Typhus where Lucius will struggle to do anything at all. Essentially Kharn is a fire and forget weapon, you point him at someone and he destroys them. As a battle leader, he leaves a lot to be desired, but as a melee fighter, in single combat, there's relatively little that will stand up to him. Lysander will do so rather well, as can Calgar, but they've got 3++sv's and S8/10 combat weapons, they aren't really "duelists" but overblown wrecking balls.
While Kharn could cause wounds like no other Arjac has the advantage of outright murdering Kharn should he connect with any hits. Really the main problem Kharn faces is even with all of his attacks and ap and high strength and decent init he is still auto-killable by standard strength 8 weaponry. A storm shield will do an amazing job at stopping his fury and all you really need is one strike and he will have a meager 5+ invul between him and being auto killed.
In fluff this is accurate too, Arjac fights the krakens of Fenris and is Logan Grimnar's Champion he'd be hard pressed to bested in combat and he gets counter attack just like his enemy so they are just a fierce in combat charged or not.
Infact If Arjac was lucky he could chuck that teleporting hammer of his and take off Kharn's head in one throw.
Problem is that Kharn's fluff is no longer truly properly reflected, he really should have Eternal Warrior. In the HH books, he gets run over by a rhino and carried off impaled and apparently dead on its dozer-blade spikes, lives through that then falls again apparently dead during the siege of the Emperor's palace, etc. He used to be immune to Instant Death, then the 4E book came along and the new book basically amounts to a minor facelift of the 4E book.
Also, if Kharn gets off a charge on Arjac, on average Arjac will die without ever swinging. 7 attacks, hitting on 2's, wounding on 2's, Kharn will inflict two such wounds typically through the Stormshield. Without a charge, it's a more 50/50 prospect.
why is everyone's answer Eternal Warrior? Every freaking time ETERNAL WARRIOR it's drives me batty to know that everyone thinks that solves the problem. I mean in fluff being run over by a rhino doesn't sound so bad when you consider the actual abilities of power armor combined with chaos. But is he going to live from a weapon with creates super heated and electrified craters upon crashing into a surface.... probably not. The fact is Kharn has died ALOT he it to his own stupidity of fighting a squad until overwhelmed and dies, standing defiantly in the way of a Krak missle or attempting to take on a dreadnought in the name of Khorne. These are all incredibly valid ways to kill Kharn ntot o mention Khorne granting ANY follow Eternal warrior or the ability to have it is just stupid beyond conceivably.
Khorne loves sacrifice, survival of the fittest, slaughter and murder WHY WOULD KHORNE even be interested in a champion who cannot die? The thrill of combat of any attack being your last the pumping of that glorious blood through your chest increasing to avoid the mortal blow. He loves Kharn because of what he reaps as still a mundane but insane space marine who wields a weapon of his primarch. (to my understanding Gorechild was wielded by Angron if not i apologize)
If Khorne ever has a follower who gets Eternal warrior as a rule I will lose all respect for the bloody gladiatorial aspect of Khorne's religion. And I find it sad that people who follow one of the most Iconic groups in 40k be them orks or Khorne worshippers do not follow the tenants of their own fluff. It would be like Orks becoming accurate shooters rather than pray and spray it just doesn't make a lick of sense.
" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog
Rysaer wrote: Kharn has no equal. He is the blood gods finest champion
Which means he's good at screaming at any rate. I'm sure we can find someone who can make him scream more.
Khorne isn't just about rage/screaming though, if you listen to the 'Chosen of Khorne' audiobook and various other books (Liber chaotica: Khorne), Khorne is also about the living embodiment of battle, bloodlust and honour. Khorne tends to favour those who fight with honour. He doesn't grant his boon to those who let others do their fighting for them. Kharn only fights those who can fight back, especially those who fight well.
Kharn, screaming aside, is a brutal and efficient warrior with the blood gods favour and probably well more than 10,000 years of experience in battle, brutal fighting and killing, I think it'd be hard task to find anybody else with this level of skill, experience and ability.
The man took a dozer blade to the chest and had a kill-counter installed in his helmet. What more do you want? He's Khorn's avatar, second only to Angron, a primarch-turned-daemon prince. Most violent man of the 41st millenium
Khorne is also about the living embodiment of battle, bloodlust and honour.
He can have honor, but the other two belong strictly to Orks
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Rysaer wrote: Kharn has no equal. He is the blood gods finest champion
Which means he's good at screaming at any rate. I'm sure we can find someone who can make him scream more.
Khorne isn't just about rage/screaming though, if you listen to the 'Chosen of Khorne' audiobook and various other books (Liber chaotica: Khorne), Khorne is also about the living embodiment of battle, bloodlust and honour. Khorne tends to favour those who fight with honour. He doesn't grant his boon to those who let others do their fighting for them. Kharn only fights those who can fight back, especially those who fight well.
Kharn, screaming aside, is a brutal and efficient warrior with the blood gods favour and probably well more than 10,000 years of experience in battle, brutal fighting and killing, I think it'd be hard task to find anybody else with this level of skill, experience and ability.
Honor... Khorne... are you serious? tha...that is the most...redicu...you can't be serious right?
that is like saying the Unibomber is as honorable as Musashi... They both killed many men whats the difference... honor is the difference.
Khorne's tennats are murder...there is no honor in his will he doesn't accept challenges because he wants to fight one on one he is furious someone challenged him nothing more. Why is it I am educating Chaos on it's own gods!?
here look at this... i haven't seen a better explaination of Khorne in many years other than this!
This is Khrone... sacrifices, murder, terror and grim trophies to show what has fallen to Khorne.
you want honor, hate to say it but that resides with the Space Marines...
As far as Orks, we kill for fun like a child who was never raised properly and enjoys hearing the squirming of a baby kitten cry out in pain.
" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog
DemetriDominov wrote: Well Kharn battered down the walls of the Imperial palace and its defenders before succumbing to his wounds while Sigismund defended the Emperor. Then, Sigismund would have likely utterly destroyed Kharn, becuase he had only just earned enough of the Blood God's favor to be sustained through death. Now, 10,000 years after Sigismund's own death, Kharn rages on with more experience in battle than anyone else. If, by a twist of fate, Sigismund were somehow transported in time to face the modern Kharn, the last part of my quote remains true. If that didn't happen, then I guess we go with Helbrecht for now.
If you listen to The Butcher's Nails, Sigismund was a warrior of great acclaim in the World Eaters' gladitorial arena, earning the title "The Black Knight"... But Kharn was also a warrior of great renown in said arena, the best the World Eaters could offer. There is no reason to think Sigismund would totally destroy heresy era Kharn (Although I do think he'd win), and even less to believe he could win against today's Kharn.
How is Kharn the best servant of Khorne? Did everyone forget Skulltaker? He is ap3 ws 7 eternal warrior (sorry Wurzzog, Khorne does have a champion with that usr) rends on a 4+ to wound and that also causes instant death. All that with a 3+ 5++ and a 2++ against all wounds caused by psychic powers and force weapons, making the only loyalist that comes close (mephiston) a corpse in combat. In 1v1 Skulltaker chumps Kharn all day long and fluff wise, that is exactly what he is supposed to do. Or Skarbrand, who is the immortal embodiment of what service to Khorne is, and whose very presence on the battlefield turns everyone nearby, friend or foe, into a psychotic bloodthirsty lunatic, mentally on par with the likes of any other servant of the Blood God. What im getting at is, while Kharn is an awesome guy, how is he the "best"? Oh and to stay on course with the main topic, I would have to say pre-heresy loyalist, Lucius (remember its pre-heresy). Post- heresy, St.Celestine. Its a battle that never ends...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/13 07:58:31
BudForTheBeerGod wrote: How is Kharn the best servant of Khorne? Did everyone forget Skulltaker? He is ap3 ws 7 eternal warrior (sorry Wurzzog, Khorne does have a champion with that usr) rends on a 4+ to wound and that also causes instant death. All that with a 3+ 5++ and a 2++ against all wounds caused by psychic powers and force weapons, making the only loyalist that comes close (mephiston) a corpse in combat. In 1v1 Skulltaker chumps Kharn all day long and fluff wise, that is exactly what he is supposed to do. Or Skarbrand, who is the immortal embodiment of what service to Khorne is, and whose very presence on the battlefield turns everyone nearby, friend or foe, into a psychotic bloodthirsty lunatic, mentally on par with the likes of any other servant of the Blood God. What im getting at is, while Kharn is an awesome guy, how is he the "best"? Oh and to stay on course with the main topic, I would have to say pre-heresy loyalist, Lucius (remember its pre-heresy). Post- heresy, St.Celestine. Its a battle that never ends...
actually good to know >.>
And in all actuality that is fine because demons never sport ridiculous saves IMHO. Skulltaker sounds like a beast at least it sounds like we both agree that Khorne isn't... pftt honorable.
" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog
" - Big-Mek Wurrzog
List of Da Propahly Zogged!!! 
