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Kharn the betrayer from my understanding is a close combat beast even by space marines standards with or without his weapons.
I have listened to alot of chaos players go on and on about how awesome he is not in game but in fluff and in battle so this has made me ask this question.. Who is his loyalist equivalent?

Who amongst the space marines from whichever chapter could equal or surpass him in hand to hand combat with or without weapons?

It depends really. In sheer crazy maul your face off combat, no mortal, chaos or not can match him, its his thing. However, his biggest strength is also his biggest weakness, which could be used by someone who is a smart and tactical genius against him, as long as they don't get fethed up first.

You know, my opinion here isn't all that great because I haven't read that much of the individual fluff behind any of those I am about to name, however, I still think they all apply.

From the pre-heresy days before Kharn was truly chaos, I think Sigismund (Kharn's oath brother if I remember right) and Loken both would have been a tough match up for Kharn.

As for the year 40k, I would say Ragnar Blackmane of the space wolves would match up well. I honestly can't think of any others off the top of my head... Maybe Hervald Strom of the Iron Knights, as all we know about him as far as I know is that he won the Feast of Blades competition two times in a row, something that was completely unheard of.

In a gladiatorial-style fight, Kharn will win. He's literally the chosen champion of the god of gladiatorial-style fights.

It's why the only real way to beat him is to not be where he is, and kill everything else first.

Lucius would give Kharn a run for his money, if not outright hand him his ass.

Lelith Hesperax would probably 'eff him up.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Lucius would give Kharn a run for his money, if not outright hand him his ass.

Lelith Hesperax would probably 'eff him up.

I could be wrong, but didn't he say loyalist counterpart? Otherwise, I would agree with you

You want his equal? That's easy Arjac Rockfist.

While Kharn could cause wounds like no other Arjac has the advantage of outright murdering Kharn should he connect with any hits. Really the main problem Kharn faces is even with all of his attacks and ap and high strength and decent init he is still auto-killable by standard strength 8 weaponry. A storm shield will do an amazing job at stopping his fury and all you really need is one strike and he will have a meager 5+ invul between him and being auto killed.

In fluff this is accurate too, Arjac fights the krakens of Fenris and is Logan Grimnar's Champion he'd be hard pressed to bested in combat and he gets counter attack just like his enemy so they are just a fierce in combat charged or not.

Infact If Arjac was lucky he could chuck that teleporting hammer of his and take off Kharn's head in one throw.

 Amanax wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Lucius would give Kharn a run for his money, if not outright hand him his ass.

Lelith Hesperax would probably 'eff him up.

I could be wrong, but didn't he say loyalist counterpart? Otherwise, I would agree with you

No, you're right. He did.

I can't think of any loyalists who wouldn't either lose terribly to him or outright annihalate him in a fight (read: grey knights, Logan Grimnar etc).

I'd like to say Sigismund, purely for the image in my head.
Noble, zealous knight vs blood-crazed gladiatorial combatant.

Also, I think it's mentioned in Butcher's Nails that Sigismund is Kharn's oath brother, and have often sparred together whenever their two legions worked together. Someone who is able to go multiple bouts with Kharn (even in training) has to be able to be his equal. Plus, Sigismund would probably know/be familiar with a lot of Kharn's moves.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
You want his equal? That's easy Arjac Rockfist.

While Kharn could cause wounds like no other Arjac has the advantage of outright murdering Kharn should he connect with any hits. Really the main problem Kharn faces is even with all of his attacks and ap and high strength and decent init he is still auto-killable by standard strength 8 weaponry. A storm shield will do an amazing job at stopping his fury and all you really need is one strike and he will have a meager 5+ invul between him and being auto killed.

In fluff this is accurate too, Arjac fights the krakens of Fenris and is Logan Grimnar's Champion he'd be hard pressed to bested in combat and he gets counter attack just like his enemy so they are just a fierce in combat charged or not.

Infact If Arjac was lucky he could chuck that teleporting hammer of his and take off Kharn's head in one throw.

Thanks for the my daily laugh.....

In game terms Statiscally Kharn will just kill him before he even knows whats going on, lets do alil theory hammer Arjac clocks in at 188 pts to Kharns' 160, 28 pts worth charge priority for Kharn?

So Kharn charges in, Arjac Counter Atks, Kharn comes in with 7 atks hitting on 2's with Hatred, followed by wound on 2's with gorechild, so lets say 6 wounds, storm shield saves 4? Sounds like a dead Arjac to me

Now in fluff terms Kharn has been around since the Crusades, killed many times, and killing innumerable more, He survived Angron's beserk onslaught, in his early years, and only grew more fierce as time went on, Some upstart champion is not Kharn's equal, Logan would be hard pressed to contend.

I really don't understand why people think Khan has no equal. From what i gather, Khan is on the same level as that of a 1st captain from any of the other legions (which is no mean feat.)

So i consider the likes of Sigismund, Raldoron and Kaesoron to be a fair match for Khan.

 Redcruisair wrote:
I really don't understand why people think Khan has no equal. From what i gather, Khan is on the same level as that of a 1st captain from any of the other legions (which is no mean feat.)

So i consider the likes of Sigismund, Raldoron and Kaesoron to be a fair match for Khan.

Kharn literally fought his primarch and lived to tell the tale, his kill count more than likely is in the millions.....who else even comes remotely close to that? what other character in the entirety of 40k has ever hit on 2s? His weapon skill is near unmatched, maybe back in the times of the heresy when its believed that Sigismund struck Kharn down at terra, but he has had an eternity of martial honing after that point. Kharn has not stopped fighting since Terra

Both Sigismund and Amit are highly respected in the World Eater fight pits as their combat styles run closest to the World Eater's own. I feel both could match Kharn in ferocity prior to him going completely insane following the salvaging of Prospero. Afterwards, however, I don't feel anyone could reach his level without losing themselves to madness the way Kharn did.

jareddm wrote:
Both Sigismund and Amit are highly respected in the World Eater fight pits as their combat styles run closest to the World Eater's own. I feel both could match Kharn in ferocity prior to him going completely insane following the salvaging of Prospero. Afterwards, however, I don't feel anyone could reach his level without losing themselves to madness the way Kharn did.

This completely, there was a time when he was more down to earth....that time is long gone

What about bran redmaw he isn't exactly the most stable of combatants and is likley to throw himself into combat in bloodlust as kharn

Daston wrote:
What about bran redmaw he isn't exactly the most stable of combatants and is likley to throw himself into combat in bloodlust as kharn

From all that I know of Bran Redmaw, I always got the impression that he was more of a hunter, that stalked then struck with wulfen ferocity, not so much a I could "carelessatude" commonly found among World Eaters kin

post heresy - Arjac Rockfist, Bran Redmaw, Grimmy, Dante, Marneus Smurfgar and Helbrecht

pre heresy - Loken (beat the crap out of him), Lucius ( NOT ),Sigismund, Sevatar, Abbadababdon...

In one of my first games with my GK, crowe fought kharn in a faceoff. After about 4 rounds of fighting (2 turns), crowe died after failing his invul and heroic sacrificed himself to kill Kharn. (his immunity to psy powers seem to fall into a loophole as the psy power in this case is cast on crowe and crowe just stabs kharn with a normal attack with special properties, or at least that's how we played it)

Since then, I've always considered them to be equal since that's what happened on the table

Would that reasoning not mean kharn is vulnerable to force weapons? They are not cast on him, and it is essnetially a normal attack.
Not seen his rules but it sounds a bit of a squiffy interpretation to me.

As for loyalists... Sanguinor? Maybe mephiston? Anyone encased in a dreadnought?

 Eetion wrote:
Would that reasoning not mean kharn is vulnerable to force weapons? They are not cast on him, and it is essnetially a normal attack.
Not seen his rules but it sounds a bit of a squiffy interpretation to me.

As for loyalists... Sanguinor? Maybe mephiston? Anyone encased in a dreadnought?

His rules specifically state that force weapons counts as normal power weapons when used against him. He has armourbane so dreadnoughts will get ripped apart by him (done this many times myself )

Ah iv not seen new rules for him, just the previous version.
Still sounds a squiffy interpretation.

But then,what do I know, stood on a train without my books and a cursory knowledge at best. Still sounds squiffy though.

If you're going by fluff, even bad fluff, then I guess the only one i could think of having an actual chance is Draigo. Only because an entity of the warp that is loyal to the Emperor and can carve his name on a Daemon Primarch heart should be able to beat down Kharn with ease.

Then again I like to disregard Draigos existence from a fluff standpoint as much as possible for the primarch ridiculousness and the fact he is a daemon not a SM anymore.

 Arthas367 wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
You want his equal? That's easy Arjac Rockfist.

While Kharn could cause wounds like no other Arjac has the advantage of outright murdering Kharn should he connect with any hits. Really the main problem Kharn faces is even with all of his attacks and ap and high strength and decent init he is still auto-killable by standard strength 8 weaponry. A storm shield will do an amazing job at stopping his fury and all you really need is one strike and he will have a meager 5+ invul between him and being auto killed.

In fluff this is accurate too, Arjac fights the krakens of Fenris and is Logan Grimnar's Champion he'd be hard pressed to bested in combat and he gets counter attack just like his enemy so they are just a fierce in combat charged or not.

Infact If Arjac was lucky he could chuck that teleporting hammer of his and take off Kharn's head in one throw.

Thanks for the my daily laugh.....

In game terms Statiscally Kharn will just kill him before he even knows whats going on, lets do alil theory hammer Arjac clocks in at 188 pts to Kharns' 160, 28 pts worth charge priority for Kharn?

So Kharn charges in, Arjac Counter Atks, Kharn comes in with 7 atks hitting on 2's with Hatred, followed by wound on 2's with gorechild, so lets say 6 wounds, storm shield saves 4? Sounds like a dead Arjac to me

Now in fluff terms Kharn has been around since the Crusades, killed many times, and killing innumerable more, He survived Angron's beserk onslaught, in his early years, and only grew more fierce as time went on, Some upstart champion is not Kharn's equal, Logan would be hard pressed to contend.

Considering if arjac charges in before he declares he could just throw his hammer and slay kharn with a pretty high probably with a percision strike is pretty humorus to me too... LOS is only a 1 in 6 chance of failing but it is still enough to cause a very big cry baby CSM player in moments. Assuming he is lucky enough to dodge the hammer when Arjac accepts or issues the challenge Kharn yet again has a chance to be worthless to the group or just straight up start killing his own unit. Arjac is able to take punishment very well and you should never underestimate the abilities of 3+ saves, because if nothing else Arjac's company will win the battle in the end even if he manages be killed in the first round. But the sheer potential of 1 strike and ur dead clearly makes him an equal for Kharn, because luck or unluck doesn't matter no one is "unbeatable" long as all it takes it 1 strike to deal with him.

Kharn is too unstable to look into generalities like this, you forget he could roll a 1 and not even attack, or

As far as ordinary relatively human-sized people in the general sense of the universe who could beat Kharn in single combat by fluff, I'd recommend trying Crowe, Jain Zar, Karandras, Drazhar/Arhra/whatever he's calling himself now, or Lelith. Most regular Space Marines aren't specialized in close combat the way Kharn is, the characters in the Codex are mostly noted as being great leaders as opposed to great individual swordsmen. The Phoenix Lords are obvious choices to go to for beating on Kharn given that they've been killing people in duels since long before Kharn was ever created, and Lelith is the woman so impossibly good at stabbing things that she can kill you with her hair.

Actually on the tabletop, I'd bet on anyone with higher Initiative than Kharn to beat him, really. He can do a silly amount of damage, but he's not tough enough to weather Lelith, Crowe, or a Phoenix Lord. Heck, last I checked you can't Deny the Witch a Heroic Sacrifice, which means that even if Kharn kills Crowe he has a two in three chance of dying anyway.

Bottom line: Kharn's fluff may talk up a storm about his unbeatability, but in practice his main advantage is that he's really cheap. Keep him away from character-killers.

Sly Marbo

Calgar, perhaps? He's got a whole lot of plot armour.

Can it be non-Marines, too? Phoenix Lords, particularly powerful Warbosses, Assassinorum operatives, probably some hive tyrants or other for the 'nids.

 Melissia wrote:
Can it be non-Marines, too? Phoenix Lords, particularly powerful Warbosses, Assassinorum operatives, probably some hive tyrants or other for the 'nids.

He's specifically asking for a loyalist example.

I figure that Kharn is the Chaos embodiment of Achilles,chosen among the Gods, has but one weakness, is nearly invincible in cc, and his loyalist equivalent would embody Hector. This therefore negates all but chapter masters, as Hector led the Trojan army. Apparently Hector was devoted to the core, a stalwart defender, fanatically loyal to his kingdom, and a bit of a maniac himself. Most importantly, their duel is that of legend, with Hector losing. If all this is true, then, in my mind there's really only one Chapter Master that can possibly be Kharn's destined equal.

High Marshal Helbrecht of the Black Templars.

Even if I'm wrong, what's to be sure is that whoever it is, it would likely be the best duel of martial skill imaginable. Ever.

 DemetriDominov wrote:
I figure that Kharn is the Chaos embodiment of Achilles,chosen among the Gods, has but one weakness, is nearly invincible in cc, and his loyalist equivalent would embody Hector. This therefore negates all but chapter masters, as Hector led the Trojan army. Apparently Hector was devoted to the core, a stalwart defender, fanatically loyal to his kingdom, and a bit of a maniac himself. Most importantly, their duel is that of legend, with Hector losing. If all this is true, then, in my mind there's really only one Chapter Master that can possibly be Kharn's destined equal.

High Marshal Helbrecht of the Black Templars.

Even if I'm wrong, what's to be sure is that whoever it is, it would likely be the best duel of martial skill imaginable. Ever.

Why not go back a good 10,000 years to Helbrecht's predecessor, and say Sigismund instead?
Or are we only talking about loyalists in 40k, strictly?