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Not to mention, With it, and only one person being able to get it, It drastically reduces the dreaded Tie.

 Lightcavalier wrote:
I find that the 50% chance of night fighting on the first turn helps to balance out First Blood fairly well.

Exactly. There are a lot of VPs to be won in any game, First Blood is not the only one. And since one knows before deployment who is going first, hide!

Last two games I got first blood by going second and having my Aegis w Quad pop a DP after 1st player moved. Loving it.

Peregrine wrote: the slight advantage in claiming objectives is more than offset by the value of the turn 1 alpha strike.

Way, way offset. An alpha strike has always been a big advantage. If you don't believe this, then you've never played against leafblower guard, or really any gunline for that matter. If you show up to a 1500 point game, and on the top of one, your opponent blows up 500 points of it, you've basically brought a 1000 point list to a 1500 point game. Everything that is lost has it's loss felt in every subsequent turn its not on the table.

I've especially noticed it in 6th ed, where cover is worse and shooting is better. Generally speaking, if there's an army focused on long-ranged shooting, they'll take the lead early on, and will roll their opponent into a tabling situation by turn 4.

And first blood appears to encourage this behavior. Why?

Testify wrote:I haven't noticed a correllation of going first with getting first blood. If you have data on this I'd like to see it.

Firstly, it makes sense intuitively. Whoever gets the first chance to kill an enemy unit is more likely to actually kill an enemy unit. I would certainly find it hard to argue the reverse.

As for empirically, of the 13 games I've played in 6th ed so far, the person who went first drew first blood in 10 of them. Yeah, it's not 100%, but you're still way more likely to get it if you go first. And, I'd note, I haven't even faced off against THAT many dedicated gunlines so far. I'm sure they'll get more popular over time with this edition's focus on shooting.

 AesSedai wrote:

The concept is that if you give your enemy first blood.... as mundane as this is to me apparently it's huge enough to waste this much time and effort to others and i understand and respect that.

Lol, passive-aggresive much?

Look at the OP. He isn't whining. He is simply stating the running transports can be a liability with regard to first blood.

This comment wasn't meant to the OP it's meant for people who wanted to whine for whining sake. And I do agree transports are a liability, it makes another spectrum of thought as oppose to just deploy and rush (which i risk in my games anyway cause it pays off)

The only time I've seen First Blood be an issue is when I convinced my friend to warp jump his Autarch. Which killed it. First Blood and Warlord. I gave the points to him, and still won.

 -Loki- wrote:
The only time I've seen First Blood be an issue is when I convinced my friend to warp jump his Autarch. Which killed it. First Blood and Warlord. I gave the points to him, and still won.

LOL! happens to me from time to time when i use the Shokk Attack gun and wipe myself from existence i gave THEM the points but... that is hilariously funny way to look at it.

 -Loki- wrote:
The only time I've seen First Blood be an issue is when I convinced my friend to warp jump his Autarch. Which killed it. First Blood and Warlord. I gave the points to him, and still won.

Why did you give him the points? Its called risk. He took it and lost.

So....if you get second turn deploy your "squishy" vehicles in cover. Maybe they will deploy out of cover and then You can pp THEIR squishy transports.

 Praxiss wrote:
So....if you get second turn deploy your "squishy" vehicles in cover. Maybe they will deploy out of cover and then You can pp THEIR squishy transports.

Nah you hold things with low armor like 12s and lower in reserve to buy you time and make you less vulnerable to first blood because squads like 10 marines or 30 orks are incredibly unlikely to be killed by any alpha strike, note it's still possible but that isn't the point. It's possible to kill a land raider in 1 gunshot, but it just isn't something you should dread every time you should gamble on these things to be worth their points, if not live and learn.

Collectively first blood is the least of my concerns knowing i have ways around them and building sufficiently proper and deadly lists.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Nah you hold things with low armor like 12s and lower in reserve to buy you time and make you less vulnerable to first blood

WHAT?

You're going to leave whole chunks of your army off the board for up to half the game? That sounds like you're doing yourself much more harm than good.

In any case, this seems like the second time in a row that GW has botched an attempt to counter MSU spam. KP only managed to push people into mech lists (rather than the opposite), and first blood seems to be helping push things into gunlines. If KP and first blood were designed to move armies away from leafblower-style lists, then they're failing...

Dont forget guys every scenario has nightfighting and this we sort of nerf the first players chances as most things will have a 5+ cover

 Lobukia wrote:
Last two games I got first blood by going second and having my Aegis w Quad pop a DP after 1st player moved. Loving it.

This is ridiculous. You could have popped the DP whether you went first or second using interceptor, and if you had gone first, you would have had more units to alpha-strike with.

Night fighting balances very little. Guard and tau: the most prominent gun-lines have ways to completely ignore night fighting. Other imperial/chaos lists can easily add search lights for a few extra points, which I see a lot.

Keeping AV12 in reserve is awesome. Please do that if we ever cross paths.

You ARE playing with the night fighting rules right?

Thats a 50% chance that first turn has night fighing, which will make it very difficult to get first blood on turn 1.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You ARE playing with the night fighting rules right?

Thats a 50% chance that first turn has night fighing, which will make it very difficult to get first blood on turn 1.

I fail to see what that has to do with any army that has black sun filters or search lights.

Searchlights are stil useless over 36" and one army can negate night fighting, so what?

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Nah you hold things with low armor like 12s and lower in reserve

Wait, huh?

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
things with low armor like 12s

wat

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
low armor like 12s

wat

no

wat

 Grey Templar wrote:
Searchlights are stil useless over 36" and one army can negate night fighting, so what?

I honestly don't know how to reply to this. I've read plenty of your posts before and I know you're not ignorant on basic tactics, and you're clearly not an idiot. I don't see what feigning ignorance is doing to help your argument. A small upgrade can easily negate night fighting and aid in first blood.

My point is, 1 army has access to complete night fighting negation. That doesn't come into play unless its that specific matchup.

Searchlights only work within 36", its not hard to avoid. And you can always park the vulnerable units in cover.


My point that night fighting seriously hampers turn 1 first blood still stands.

 Lokas wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Nah you hold things with low armor like 12s and lower in reserve

Wait, huh?

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
things with low armor like 12s

wat

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
low armor like 12s

wat

no

wat

*rolls eyes* look i don't do this, it is an option to avoid this downright "unbalanced" ...ha.... first blood rule though. Obviously though people aren't fans of reserves here, I don't use em much being orks but i have wrecked some real chaos with them before.

I play DE and my main opponent is my best friend who plays... Orks. First blood is fun. Even if I don't get it every time, the possibility of taking out a unit of his and getting me that is a fun idea.

Again, this is from a Dark Eldar player...who, as already was pointed out, should have more to complain about but doesn't lol

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
*rolls eyes* look i don't do this, it is an option to avoid this downright "unbalanced" ...ha.... first blood rule though. Obviously though people aren't fans of reserves here, I don't use em much being orks but i have wrecked some real chaos with them before.

Completely missed the point.

Was expressing utter bewilderment at someone calling AV 12 low.

Mind you, it's not the highest, but it's far from low. You, as an ork player, should especially know that.

First Blood favors the player who's going first. That's, uh, the point. Going second is statistically favored in most matchups otherwise, even in 5th edition (someone analyzed results from high-level tournaments and found the player going second won more often), and 6th edition changes other than First Blood make going second even more important.

First Blood is a way to make up for that and give players a reason to go first-- that being said, I honestly think it doesn't go far enough, and in most cases going second is better, to the point where I usually don't even try to Seize the Initiative.

 Lokas wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
*rolls eyes* look i don't do this, it is an option to avoid this downright "unbalanced" ...ha.... first blood rule though. Obviously though people aren't fans of reserves here, I don't use em much being orks but i have wrecked some real chaos with them before.

Completely missed the point.

Was expressing utter bewilderment at someone calling AV 12 low.

Mind you, it's not the highest, but it's far from low. You, as an ork player, should especially know that.

I as an ork player accept that all armor is moot if it aint bringing boyz it's worthless

But in the grand scope of things armor 12 IMO is just barely safe from standard shooting personally speaking. With the utter amount of S:8 weaponry or higher most armies bring if you are truly worried about first blood armor 12 ... any armor actually isn't safe. But like you said I am aware just how painful armor is unless it's a battle wagon i resign myself to losing it quickly but that isn't the point the point to me is that you can't play the game worrying about every little point you give the enemy armor still serves a very practical purpose in all armies and shouldn't be seen as a weakness it should be protected or hidden like all vital pieces of an army should be in order to play properly.

but the reason i say 12 is just past the line of safe is because of str8 but also as an ork player i don't worry about any vehicle less it has amazing rear armor which only about half a dozen vehicles in the game worry me like that. 11 is manageable for me with any weaponry, 12 is dedicated gunfire, 13 is using finese to beat and 14 i resign myself to needing a warboss or deff rolla

personally, i just bite bullet every time and think I have just as much a likelihood to be first as i do 2nd and either way i can pivot and blast 25 inches and a dozer blade makes it nearly impossible (for orks) to fail the dangerous terrain test to get where i needed. if it blasts me that far ahead that quickly then I achieved what I wanted. But personally this is a bad tactic, sometimes holding reserves and blasting out from no where round 2 is better because it intensifies the horde which is already advanced half way up the board. it forces the enemy to choose horde or trukks.

either way I'm holding to the idea first blood is mitagatable by most armies and really if you feel that "whoever goes first gets it" then that is still fair because you have a dice roll off for that point you believe is synonymous with 1st turn (even though it isn't if you plan) and even if you fail that you get a 1 in 6 chance after that to rob it from him. That is completely fair going by your own logic because ultimately it just means whoever starts has the lead like in a race whoever starting running quicker than the other has a small head start.

I'd like to point out that Big Mek Wurrzog's posts in this thread are all extremely good. Most people don't seem to understand how to use secondary objectives to their advantage, but he clearly does.

There are ways to mitigate the risk of yielding First Blood. For instance, I've gone second against extremely shooty gunlines, deployed everything out of line of sight or within 2+ cover, taken no damage on turn one, then moved my own mobile shooting into line of sight and claimed the point for myself. Similarly, I frequently now keep transports in reserve to avoid yielding First Blood and to allow my other forces to soften up the enemy.

Such techniques are all part of adapting to 6th edition. Similarly, the value of different primary detachment HQs has changed somewhat now that Slay the Warlord is in the game-- St. Celestine in particular got crazy good, and she was already a great bargain. Even Linebreaker necessitates some changes to lists-- it's a strong argument in favor of bikers, for instance. These techniques are a key part of adapting to 6th edition, and one that I think most people neglect.

It's lame, but 6e is Dakkahammer.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Last two games I got first blood by going second and having my Aegis w Quad pop a DP after 1st player moved. Loving it.

This is ridiculous. You could have popped the DP whether you went first or second using interceptor, and if you had gone first, you would have had more units to alpha-strike with.

Night fighting balances very little. Guard and tau: the most prominent gun-lines have ways to completely ignore night fighting. Other imperial/chaos lists can easily add search lights for a few extra points, which I see a lot.

Keeping AV12 in reserve is awesome. Please do that if we ever cross paths.

Who said anything about reserving anything? What's ridiculous is you missing the point of the post. The posts prior to mine where discussing the advantage of going first and getting first blood (see the OP if it moved too fast for you).

BTW, alpha strikes mean nothing. It's who has the most units at that beginning of turn 2 that matters. I almost always choose to go second. I've done pretty well by letting people set up and make their first moves, weather their alpha strike (which while in cover is rarely that significant). Then I drop most of my points on top of their heads and begin rolling up their army. So far it's worked as well in 6th, if not better, as it did in 5th.

First Blood is an OK rule in my opinion because it's more fluffy than anything else. You can imagine your whole army cheering as the first vehicle/unit of the enemy army is blown to pieces. Because it is so luck based and only worth 1 victory point, I don't think it impacts the game too much. Anyone altering their army lists or game plans just to get First Blood is probably putting themselves at a disadvantage unless it already coincides with their plan.

 Dunwich wrote:
... Anyone altering their army lists or game plans just to get First Blood is probably putting themselves at a disadvantage unless it already coincides with their plan.

QFT. So this. It's one point folks.

 Kingsley wrote:
I'd like to point out that Big Mek Wurrzog's posts in this thread are all extremely good. Most people don't seem to understand how to use secondary objectives to their advantage, but he clearly does.

There are ways to mitigate the risk of yielding First Blood. For instance, I've gone second against extremely shooty gunlines, deployed everything out of line of sight or within 2+ cover, taken no damage on turn one, then moved my own mobile shooting into line of sight and claimed the point for myself. Similarly, I frequently now keep transports in reserve to avoid yielding First Blood and to allow my other forces to soften up the enemy.

Such techniques are all part of adapting to 6th edition. Similarly, the value of different primary detachment HQs has changed somewhat now that Slay the Warlord is in the game-- St. Celestine in particular got crazy good, and she was already a great bargain. Even Linebreaker necessitates some changes to lists-- it's a strong argument in favor of bikers, for instance. These techniques are a key part of adapting to 6th edition, and one that I think most people neglect.

This.

I chose to go second nearly all the time in objective missions in 5th, and now 5/6 games are objectives, instead of 2/3. First Blood is a useful mechanical offset to force action and give the player going first a bit of an edge.

People obsessed with going first and alpha strikes usually are playing on planet bowling ball.