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rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Moving in for assault is specified that it can not be done if locked in combat. P.20 tells us this.

Absolutely false.

Page 20 prevents a unit that is locked in combat from declaring a charge.

BRB Page 20 wrote:Some units are disallowed from charging. Common reasons a
unit is not allowed to declare a charge include:
•The unit is already locked in close combat (see page 23)

Once you're past that you have no such restriction.

Declaring a charge can not be done whilst locked in combat.

Declaring a charge involves the subsequent charge move.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Declaring a charge can not be done whilst locked in combat.

Declaring a charge involves the subsequent charge move.

Not true.
Declaring a charge is step 1 in the Charge Sub-Phase. Step 4 is the Charge Move. edit: page 20

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Declaring a charge can not be done whilst locked in combat.

Declaring a charge involves the subsequent charge move.

Not true.
Declaring a charge is step 1 in the Charge Sub-Phase. Step 4 is the Charge Move. edit: page 20

It is true, it is a Charge Sub-Phase, if you do not declare a charge you can not move charging models.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Declaring a charge can not be done whilst locked in combat.

Declaring a charge involves the subsequent charge move.

Not true.
Declaring a charge is step 1 in the Charge Sub-Phase. Step 4 is the Charge Move. edit: page 20

It is true, it is a Charge Sub-Phase, if you do not declare a charge you can not move charging models.

Right.
For this we'll assume that units lock as soon as one model is in base to base.
At the Declare Charge step, the unit is not locked. Agreed?
At the Resolve Overwatch step, the unit is not locked. Agreed?
At the Roll Charge Range step, the unit is not locked. Agreed?
At the start of the Charge Move step, the unit is not locked. Agreed?

If the unit doesn't become locked until after the Charge Move step begins it's well after the charge has been declared.
Your statement that "Declaring a charge involves the subsequent charge move." is demonstrably false, as I've shown.

Perhaps I should have said "Declaring a charge can not be done whilst locked in combat, and is one part of the Charge sub-phase that involves the subsequent charge move."

The point being the unit does not become locked until the fight sub-phase because you are not allowed to move, except for Pile In moves, while locked.

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

Cannot move means just that. nothing in the charge move section says you can move whilst locked in combat so you can not.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Perhaps I should have said "Declaring a charge can not be done whilst locked in combat, and is one part of the Charge sub-phase that involves the subsequent charge move."

So a completely irrelevant statement? Works for me. You brought up page 20, so I argued based on page 20.

The point being the unit does not become locked until the fight sub-phase because you are not allowed to move, except for Pile In moves, while locked.

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

Cannot move means just that. nothing in the charge move section says you can move whilst locked in combat so you can not.

Why are you interrupting the Charge Move (that is required) to check for locked status?

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

coredump wrote:
Except the rules very specifically allow for moving your entire unit when charging.... in fact, they *require* it.

And "Can't move", overrides "Must move".

I disagree.

For example, a unit "can't" disembark from a transport if it move more than 6" however if that transport is wrecked by the enemy shooting the unit "Must" disembark.

Can't in it of itself does not override Must. Context is what matters.

Your example is not relevant, as the vehicle can not move in your opponents phase.

You can't disembark in your opponents phase either, that is why there is a specific exception allowing the disembark if your vehicle is wrecked by enemy shooting.

Moving in for assault is specified that it can not be done if locked in combat. P.20 tells us this.

You just made my point for me.

Can't does not override Must.

Again it is the context that matters.

It is restriction overrides permission in general. More specific permissions override general restrictions but specific restrictions override all.

Eg.
Unit's may declare a charge in the assault phase.
Unit's that have exited a transport may not assault that turn.
Unit's that have exited a transport with an assault ramp may charge in the same turn they exited the transport.
Unit's may not assault after exiting a transport that has arrived by DS.
BA terminators in a Stormraven that arrives by DS may not assault that turn due to not being able to Assault after DS.
They have a specific allowance to assault from a SR but not in the specific situation of the turn they DS.

Not sure how this is even still an issue. If a unit makes it into b2b contact with you, you are locked in combat and can't make anymore overwatch moves.

This whole 'locked in combat starts during the fight sub-phase' business makes absolutely no sense, and isn't even supported in the rules.

You have to make a choice, overwatch the gants because they might be the only units you CAN overwatch, or hope they roll poorly enough on their charge range that you can then overwatch the next unit that charges.

 smokeh wrote:
Not sure how this is even still an issue. If a unit makes it into b2b contact with you, you are locked in combat and can't make anymore overwatch moves.

This whole 'locked in combat starts during the fight sub-phase' business makes absolutely no sense, and isn't even supported in the rules.

You have to make a choice, overwatch the gants because they might be the only units you CAN overwatch, or hope they roll poorly enough on their charge range that you can then overwatch the next unit that charges.

If you are locked in combat " If a unit makes it into b2b contact with you" then no models may move after the first model makes base contact, as "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move.."

So if you are locked as soon as you are in Base contact, you can not finish the charge move. This way breaks rules.

If reading the rules one way results in broken rules, then that is probably not the right way to read rules.

DeathReaper wrote:

 smokeh wrote:
Not sure how this is even still an issue. If a unit makes it into b2b contact with you, you are locked in combat and can't make anymore overwatch moves.

This whole 'locked in combat starts during the fight sub-phase' business makes absolutely no sense, and isn't even supported in the rules.

You have to make a choice, overwatch the gants because they might be the only units you CAN overwatch, or hope they roll poorly enough on their charge range that you can then overwatch the next unit that charges.

If you are locked in combat " If a unit makes it into b2b contact with you" then no models may move after the first model makes base contact, as "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move.."

So if you are locked as soon as you are in Base contact, you can not finish the charge move. This way breaks rules.

If reading the rules one way results in broken rules, then that is probably not the right way to read rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Perhaps I should have said "Declaring a charge can not be done whilst locked in combat, and is one part of the Charge sub-phase that involves the subsequent charge move."

So a completely irrelevant statement? Works for me. You brought up page 20, so I argued based on page 20.

The point being the unit does not become locked until the fight sub-phase because you are not allowed to move, except for Pile In moves, while locked.

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

Cannot move means just that. nothing in the charge move section says you can move whilst locked in combat so you can not.

Why are you interrupting the Charge Move (that is required) to check for locked status?

Because the rules say we can not move whilst locked. (and the can not move whilst locked restriction does not give us a time to check, so this must be enforced at all times).

If models are locked when they are in base contact, then anytime models are in base contact they can not move.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because the rules say we can not move whilst locked. (and the can not move whilst locked restriction does not give us a time to check, so this must be in forced at all times).

If models are locked when they are in base contact, then anytime models are in base contact they can not move.

Right. The models in base contact cannot move.

And then we read the locked rules and, we see that units are locked if they have one or more models in base contact. so no one may move.

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

Yes, it can't move during it's movement phase. It says nothing about the charge move that brings them into b2b. Completely different moves. The rule you are quoting is telling you that being locked in combat means you can't move your unit, or shoot at other units, and that you are 'locked in combat'. It's not saying that once a unit hits b2b no one else in the unit can move.

Read it again.

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move" P.23

"cannot otherwise move"

A charge move would be otherwise moving.

You are only allowed to make pile in moves.

You can not move in the movement phase, you can not run, and you can not make a charge move, as you are only allowed to make pile-in moves.

Right now the sub-debate is about whether "Charge moves" override "Locked" moves (for purposes of determining when "Locked" begins for the main debate).

If more specific rules override more general rules, how do we determine which of two conflicting rules is more specific, and which is more general?

I posit that the Charge move is more specific, because it refers directly to one sub-phase.
Under the heading "Move Initial Charger" on page 21, it specifically states that ""After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire..". This line is very specific, because it only applies not only to one phase, but to one specific part of one specific sub-phase: the phase where you move the charging unit.
It applies to no other event or action a unit can do or take throughout all the rest of a game, except when it's moving toward a target it's charging.

Similarly, the definition of Locked in Combat only appears in one place in the entire book too.
However, Locked in Combat applies to the shooting phase as well; it is mere coincidence of editing and space-saving that it only appears in one place in the book. In fact, it applies to every other part of every other phase in the entire game, and so, I posit that it is the more general rule.
Note that the definition of "Locked in Combat" does not appear in the section that covers the Shooting phase at all! This will become important again later.

Therefore, the Charge move is possible because it is a very specific rule covering only one event. It is more specific, thus it can override the more general rule of Locked in Combat, and allow the rest of the unit to make Charge moves even after the Initial Charger has made base contact with an enemy.


Back to the main debate.
Though the Shooting phase section does not define the definition of "Locked in Combat", it still applies, because it's a very general rule that just happens to have its definition put on page 23. It is clearly a very general rule because it applies to the entirety of the game.
Thus, it follows that Overwatch shooting is also a type of shooting attack, subject to the same rules as the Shooting phase.

The specific placement of the Locked in Combat definition has no bearing on when a unit "becomes" Locked in Combat; the check is made at the particular instant any shooting attack (including Overwatch) is to be attempted. Any units in base contact, no shooting. Unless, of course, there is a more specific rule to override it (but there isn't).


This is all, of course, all just my interpretation of the state of things. I understand how owners of a shooting army have a vested interest in the other interpretation, and I have nothing against that.

I'm inclined to be changing my mind on the question of when a unit is considered locked in combat. The earliest reference I can find to it on p10, and they could have defined it here (or earlier) if they wanted to, but they didn't. More significantly, they could have said in the Charge Sub-phase that once a unit has charged and is in b2b it is LiC, but they didn't. I can only conclude that waiting to define it until the Fight Sub-phase was a deliberate choice.

So if charging units are not consider LiC until the Fight Sub-phase, it obviously means that a charged unit can decline Overwatch against one charger in the hope that he can Overwatch another. From the attacker's perspective, you don't have to tell your opponent which units are going to Charge until you do it, so he still has to guess (although in many situations it will be obvious).

- Snapshot

PS. I still have this nagging suspicion I saw something from GW (maybe a battle report in a WD mag) that said you can't do this, but I can't find it so I'm happy to go with LiC in the Fight sub-phase.

Just my 2 cents.

How we play at me lfgs.

The charge step, as stated, has multiple sub phases.

The first and most important for this is the declare charges. All units that wish to charge must declare so before any units can move on to rolling. So the termagaunts and the rtant each declare a charge. You then mist choose which unit to over watch. As we play you can only ow 1 unit.

Cyke wrote:
Right now the sub-debate is about whether "Charge moves" override "Locked" moves (for purposes of determining when "Locked" begins for the main debate).

If more specific rules override more general rules, how do we determine which of two conflicting rules is more specific, and which is more general?

I posit that the Charge move is more specific, because it refers directly to one sub-phase.

The locked rules seem more specific, since it only allows one type of move in one instance, pile in.

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves" P.23

Is the charge move a Pile in move?

Okay, I am confused as to how there is any confusion here.

So let me see if I have this straight.

You have a unit of a Hive Tyrant, and a squad of 'gaunts, both within potential charge range of the squad with the flamer.

The 'Nid player begins his assault phase.
He nominates a unit, the 'gaunts, and declares that they are charging the flamer squad.

The controller of the flamer squad then decides weather or not to overwatch the 'gaunts, since overwatch is optional.

I think everyone understands what happens if he does shoot at them, but why choose not to?

If you chose not to shoot at them, they charge you and MAY roll a high enough range roll to get in to assault.
If they don't, and the Tyrant charges, of course you can flamer overwatch him.

If they do, you are locked in combat by the 'gaunts, and CANNOT fire overwatch at the Tyrant, IF it chooses to charge.

The other reason overwatch is limited to one volley per turn is if you overwatch the assaulting unit to death, you can't overwatch the second charging unit as well.

The most funny part for the 'Nid player is to declare the 'gaunts, have the flamer decline to shoot them, and have the Tyrant charge someone else. No overwatch is fired because the Tyrant is scary.


Now, to clear a few things up.

1. There is NO such thing as an overwatch move. I don't know where the heck that came from, but overwatch is shooting, not moving.
2. If you declare and assault, and move the first model into B2B, that does not prevent the rest of his squad from moving to join him on the charge. The rules being cited are to keep a squad from running out of last turn's combat and into combat with a nearby squad that had not been involved. This is not well stated in the rules, but is OBVIOUS by there being step by step instructions for moving each model into combat from the same squad.
3. You cannot declare all your units that are charging at once, you must declare each one and them overwatch/roll charge range/move into assault and then declare the next unit that intends to assault. Basic order of operations from page 20.
4. Page 24 clarifies the general rule about what being locked in combat means; it does not mean that you become locked in combat at that point, and were in B2B and not LiC before.


Edited for punctuation.

 spycer wrote:
Okay, I am confused as to how there is any confusion here.

So let me see if I have this straight.

You have a unit of a Hive Tyrant, and a squad of 'gaunts, both within potential charge range of the squad with the flamer.

The 'Nid player begins his assault phase.
He nominates a unit, the 'gaunts, and declares that they are charging the flamer squad.

The controller of the flamer squad then decides weather or not to overwatch the 'gaunts, since overwatch is optional.

I think everyone understands what happens if he does shoot at them, but why choose not to?

Because the Tyrant may charge and you might want to shoot it instead of the gaunts.

 spycer wrote:

If you chose not to shoot at them, they charge you and MAY roll a high enough range roll to get in to assault.
If they don't, and the Tyrant charges, of course you can flamer overwatch him.

Even if they roll high enough you can Overwatch any one unit that charged on the same turn, as long as you are not locked in combat from a previous turn.

 spycer wrote:
If they do, you are locked in combat by the 'gaunts, and CANNOT fire overwatch at the Tyrant, IF it chooses to charge.

Not true, as they are not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-phase.

 spycer wrote:
The other reason overwatch is limited to one volley per turn is if you overwatch the assaulting unit to death, you can't overwatch the second charging unit as well.

Citation needed.

 spycer wrote:
Now, to clear a few things up.

1. There is NO such thing as an overwatch move. I don't know where the heck that came from, but overwatch is shooting, not moving.
2. If you declare and assault, and move the first model into B2B, that does not prevent the rest of his squad from moving to join him on the charge. The rules being cited are to keep a squad from running out of last turn's combat and into combat with a nearby squad that had not been involved. This is not well stated in the rules, but is OBVIOUS by there being step by step instructions for moving each model into combat from the same squad.
3. You cannot declare all your units that are charging at once, you must declare each one and them overwatch/roll charge range/move into assault and then declare the next unit that intends to assault. Basic order of operations from page 20.
4. Page 24 clarifies the general rule about what being locked in combat means; it does not mean that you become locked in combat at that point, and were in B2B and not LiC before.

1) Correct, not sure where smokeh came up with that one.
2) You are correct, but that is also the reason that the unit is not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-phase.
3) True, you declare chargers one at a time, and go through the 5 step process.
4) P.24 defines what Locked in combat means. it also describes this in the Fight Sub-phase, but it is not limited to the Fight Sub-phase, as you can be locked in combat in the movement and assault phases as well.

So as soon as a charging unit has a model in base contact Either:

A) That unit is not locked in combat until some later point so the rest of the charging unit is free to move the rest of the charging models.
Or
B) That unit is locked in combat as soon as that unit has "one or more models in base contact with enemies" and the charging unit is not free to move the rest of the charging models.

Option B breaks rules and If reading the rules one way results in broken rules, then that is probably not the right way to read rules, so we default to it being option A.

 spycer wrote:
If they do, you are locked in combat by the 'gaunts, and CANNOT fire overwatch at the Tyrant, IF it chooses to charge.


2. If you declare and assault, and move the first model into B2B, that does not prevent the rest of his squad from moving to join him on the charge.

So you are saying that a model can make a move (other than Pile-In) when the unit is locked in combat? Can you please give a page reference for that.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Well if you look at the rules for CC you will see that you are not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-Phase, so you can overwatch against any unit that charges you.

Page 23 under who can fight.

Must we start this thread again. How many pages did the last one go. Locked in combat is clearly spelled out and your just making up rules to justify your position. Once a unit charges successfully and is in BTB the unit is locked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

 spycer wrote:
If they do, you are locked in combat by the 'gaunts, and CANNOT fire overwatch at the Tyrant, IF it chooses to charge.


2. If you declare and assault, and move the first model into B2B, that does not prevent the rest of his squad from moving to join him on the charge.

So you are saying that a model can make a move (other than Pile-In) when the unit is locked in combat? Can you please give a page reference for that.

You jump on the specific > general rule bandwagon quickly but not that its used against you, you say it doesnt work?

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Well if you look at the rules for CC you will see that you are not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-Phase, so you can overwatch against any unit that charges you.

Page 23 under who can fight.

Must we start this thread again. How many pages did the last one go. Locked in combat is clearly spelled out and your just making up rules to justify your position. Once a unit charges successfully and is in BTB the unit is locked.

You are correct that "Locked in combat is clearly spelled out", but you are not correct that "your[sic] just making up rules to justify your position"

If this were true in the Charge Sub-phase "Once a unit charges successfully and is in BTB the unit is locked" then only the first model could make its charge move.

The last one went 2 or 3 pages, but we can let the thread die, I am fine with that.

Again, general rule "units locked in combat cannot move" vs specific rule about how to execute a charge. So specific it takes up the entire right column of page 21, as compared to your one sentence. Not to mention your taking a rule out of context and also applying a rule to a unit in mid action.

So again, once a unit is in BTB, per page 23, it is locked in combat.

Interesting that you see it as a general rule, when it says the only move they can make is pile in. It is very specific on what move you are allowed whilst in base contact.


Nothing in the charge move rules specifically over-rides the Locked rules.

Can't trumps must in this case.

Or they are not locked unitll the Fight Sub-phase.

As the first breaks the rules, and the second one does not, we should be inclined to use the one that does not break the rules.

Lungpickle wrote:
I see the argument on both sides, and yes you move one then declair with the next, however this is all appening with split second moves and such though you do it one at a time, for the sanity of the game. If you send in a sqaud and I elect to not overwath them but save it for the second potential charger who is coming at the same time I get to.

Remeber theres a rule that say you may overwatch only once per squad per assault phase. Why make this distinction if you could only do it on the initial unit that moves. Its a choice for both player, its tactics and whats lame is sending in a feint squad only to save your best. Thats cheesy. I tell who Im charging and let my opponent choose since it makes for a funner game. However I like dice rolling and not too much gak going on.

Why only over watch once? That rule has a use.
If I overwatch and kill the two gaunts, I could overwatch again and kill the tyrant. The once per squad prevents me from overwatching EVERY unit that charges.

-Matt

One of the arguments used to assert that a charging unit is not locked in combat until the Fight sub-phase is that said unit can't move when locked - as soon as the first charger is in b2b, moves aren't allowed (except for Pile-ins), ergo it cannot be locked.

I just checked, and p10 simply says that LiC units cannot move in the Movement Phase. It is self-evident that starting a Charge Move should not prevent the Charge Move from finishing.

I don't think that this argument can be used to strength the case that LiC only kicks in in the Fight sub-phase.

Then if you RAW, units with at least one model in b2b are Locked in Combat (it's definition is the Fight sub-phase carries no other meaning other than it is a handy place because we need to find out who can strike blows). Certainly, being LiC as soon as the first models charges in does not prevent the completion of the Charge Move.

This then leads to the first successful charge denying Overwatch against additional chargers, which is where this thread started.

Snapshot wrote:
It is self-evident that starting a Charge Move should not prevent the Charge Move from finishing.

That is RAI.

RAW they should be locked, unless there is a simple explanation like they do not get locked until the Fight Sub-phase.

Snapshot wrote:
I just checked, and p10 simply says that LiC units cannot move in the Movement Phase

Right, but P.10 only covers the movement phase, check P.23

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves" P.23