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The charging rules specify that subsequent models can and indeed must continue moving after the first. That's specific permisson.

The unit is locked once it's in base contact. The charging unit can keep moving the subsequent charging models, and both units can make Pile In moves, because the rules explicitly say thay they can (and must).

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
[The movement rules even say: "units already locked in close combat"P. 10, so it is clearly an ongoing condition, and not something that is only checked for at certain.

It says already locked in combat because the Game Turn is sequential. Move -> Shoot ->Assault. Therefore you cannot be locked in combat unless it is from a previous turn.

Thank you for confirming that it is an ongoing condition.

Your welcome. That has no bearing on any part of your argument though. You only check for LIC at points that the rules say you do. Mid charge is not one of them.

ATSKNF has a great example of Specific permission when it says you can use it against SA.

Charge moves have no such specific language.

They make abundantly clear and explicit that models can and must move even after the first model makes contact. Likewise with the Pile In rules.

You keep covering the same ground. And will undoubtedly continue to do so. Your entire position is based on trying to take that one sentence out of context. You have no RAW support for your side of the argument, only a continuous stream trying to disprove the Charge move locks.

 DeathReaper wrote:
ATSKNF has a great example of Specific permission when it says you can use it against SA.

Charge moves have no such specific language.

So you're ignoring all the things I cited that require you to check to see if the unit is locked? They al deny permission if the unit is locked, meaning you must check at that time.

Fragile wrote:

You're welcome. That has no bearing on any part of your argument though. You only check for LIC at points that the rules say you do. Mid charge is not one of them.

You check for lock prior to performing an Overwatch, as per page 21. If lock preventst overwatch, you must check to see if you're locked prior to firing overwatch.
If you don't check for lock prior to shooting, then the restriction would do nothing.

Here's a question.
If you are going to claim locked only starts when a model checks for it's initiative step in the fight sub phase, when does locked end?

1) If Blood Angel Devistators are locked with the lone surviving cultist, and a stray whirlwind shot scatters in and kills the cultists, are those blood angels still locked?
2) If Blood angel Devistators put 2 wounds on a chaos lord, and then at init 1 he swings with his daemon weapon, rolls a 1 and dies, are the Blood Angels still locked?

Since they lost contact with the enemy, they have not had an initiative step yet to show that they are not locked, and last condition was locked.


-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Fragile wrote:

You're welcome. That has no bearing on any part of your argument though. You only check for LIC at points that the rules say you do. Mid charge is not one of them.

You check for lock prior to performing an Overwatch, as per page 21. If lock preventst overwatch, you must check to see if you're locked prior to firing overwatch.
If you don't check for lock prior to shooting, then the restriction would do nothing.

You check for LIC in quite a few places, those above were just examples.

Here's a question.
If you are going to claim locked only starts when a model checks for it's initiative step in the fight sub phase, when does locked end?

I have never claimed anything like that, you may want to recheck who you think said that.

Fragile wrote:

Here's a question.
If you are going to claim locked only starts when a model checks for it's initiative step in the fight sub phase, when does locked end?

I have never claimed anything like that, you may want to recheck who you think said that.

My bad. It's tough to follow this thread while the 3 year old is chasing the cat through the house with my Storm Raven.
So, not saying it was you, when does locked end, if you attaching timing to it, other than just base to base?

-Matt

Stop trying to rule lawyer out of this. The entire terminology behind people firing overwatch is SUPPOSED to be that you can choose to fire selectively so that you don't waste your overwatch on a group you dont need to shoot. Herp Derp.

Monasou wrote:
Stop trying to rule lawyer out of this. The entire terminology behind people firing overwatch is SUPPOSED to be that you can choose to fire selectively so that you don't waste your overwatch on a group you dont need to shoot. Herp Derp.

That's your assumption of the intent.
Mine is that you can take the risk of not shooting at the first unit, hoping they don't make the charge.

Fortunately, that's also backed up by rules.

Monasou wrote:
Stop trying to rule lawyer out of this. The entire terminology behind people firing overwatch is SUPPOSED to be that you can choose to fire selectively so that you don't waste your overwatch on a group you dont need to shoot. Herp Derp.

The terminology of firing overwatch is to shoot at an enemy before they get in to throwing punch/stabbing with knife range. If the first unit is already in your face, it's not exactly easy to fire a missile launcher while a 300 pound bug is clawing at your back with 4 foot long scythes.
You can't claim abstraction at Step1, and then just ignore how your claiming pans out on step5.

-Matt

The rules are clear that you cannot overwatch when locked in combat. If a unit is in b2b then you cannot overwatch. Strict RAW no joy overwatching the second unit.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The rules are clear that you cannot overwatch when locked in combat. If a unit is in b2b then you cannot overwatch. Strict RAW no joy overwatching the second unit.

And when does one become locked in combat?

Are units with one or more models in base contact with enemies locked in combat?

(Both are rhetorical questions).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The rules are clear that you cannot overwatch when locked in combat. If a unit is in b2b then you cannot overwatch. Strict RAW no joy overwatching the second unit.

And when does one become locked in combat?

When you're allowed to check for it.

Are units with one or more models in base contact with enemies locked in combat?

Yes - when you're allowed to check.

(Both are rhetorical questions).

Rhetorical or not, you haven't addressed those points.

Take P.10 for example. it says: "units already locked in close combat"P. 10, so it is clearly an ongoing condition, and not something that only applies when we are "Told to check" (Even though we are not explicitly told to "Check for Locked in combat).

It applies at all times when the condition is fulfilled.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Take P.10 for example. it says: "units already locked in close combat"P. 10, so it is clearly an ongoing condition, and not something that only applies when we are "Told to check" (Even though we are not explicitly told to "Check for Locked in combat).

It applies at all times when the condition is fulfilled.

"MOVING AND CLOSE COMBAT
Units already locked in close combat with the enemy cannot
move during the Movement phase."
"I want to move that unit. It's in CC. I can't move that unit."
How is that not a check?

Remember it says "Units already locked"

They are locked at all times, not "only when the 'check' is made".

They are continuously Locked whilst the condition is filled.

You cannot know if they're locked until you check.
Permissive rule set - we must be told when to check.
There is no instruction in the Charge Move section to check.

Therefore nothing is restricting the Charge Move.

or

You're bending that to mean what you want - "Units already locked" well, how do I know if they are? I check. This means that - in the past - they came in to base-to-base contact (it's irrelevant how). This doesn't mean that the status is all-pervasive. You haven't gotten around the fact that there are checks built into the rules and the Charge Move doesn't have any.

And you can 'check' during the assault phase.

So logic dictates that anyone still in Base contact is still locked until they are not in base contact anymore.

It is an ongoing condition, not something that only happens at the 'check'

 DeathReaper wrote:
And you can 'check' during the assault phase.

So logic dictates that anyone still in Base contact is still locked until they are not in base contact anymore.

It is an ongoing condition, not something that only happens at the 'check'

During the assault phase, yes.
During the Charge Move, no.

Again, it is an ongoing condition, and not something that only applies at certain times.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Again, it is an ongoing condition, and not something that only applies at certain times.

It's an ongoing condition that is only relevant at certain times.
You are told when those times are.

It is an ongoing condition that has certain restrictions at certain times.
You are told when those times are.

Including P.23 about not being able to move, except Pile In moves whist locked.

So you're arguing for massive redundancy of rules over check when you're told to?

Not at all.

I am saying that the condition is true when the rules say it is true. The Condition is ongoing and does not stop until the condition is no longer true.

And that the condition is true when one or more models is in base contact with enemies.

Right, so massive redundancy.
Aside from the Charge Move rules, are there any that don't have you check for LiC?

Snapshot wrote:
I think the only way to get overwatch on the hive tyrant would be to decline overwatch on the gaunts, and hope for a crappy Charge Range roll that would bring them up short - their Charge fails, the tyrant declares a charge, and you now overwatch him.

If the gaunts' charge succeeds, you are locked in combat and cannot overwatch any more.

We have always it this way shoot the first declared or hope for a crappy charge roll.

Rather interesting discussion.

PG 21 - Assault Phase Summary

You first declare charges. Second, resolve overwatches, third roll range, fourth charge move, fifth declare next charge or finish subphase.

The next phase is the fight subphase which starts with the first step, choose a combat.

For me, this says that combats must exist BEFORE the fight subphase or else there can be no combats we can choose from. We can't say it happens between step 5 of the charge subphase and step 1 of the fight subphase, because by very definition, the subphase starts with the first step. This means that we have to validate when a combat is brought into existence.

We'll go with DR's claim that we ALWAYS are checking to see if a combat comes into existence since we aren't expressly told when.

I think the order of operations goes something like this.

1. Declare charge with Gaunts. Check if the unit is in combat. It is not, no models are in base to base. Step satisfied, go to 2.

2. Resolve Overwatch. Space Marine opts to NOT overwatch. Check if unit is in CC. It is not, no models are in B2B. This step is satisfied, go to 3.

3. Roll Charge, assumed to have succeeded. You are now allowed to move the unit the distance rolled. CC yet? No, no models in B2B. Satisfied. To step 4.

4. Charge move. Specific permission granted to move the UNIT the distance rolled in step 3. All models move the distance. Combat? Models are in B2B and "Units that have one or more models in B2B are locked (pg 23). Therefore a combat is now in progress. The unit is locked and cannot fire further overwatch.

5. Declare other charges and move on to the phase.

Fight Subphase:

1. Choose a combat. This necessitates that combats exist before this phase begins. Therefore, the combats begin their existence when the "units have one or more models in b2b" but after "All of the models move their charge distance." As this is the only thing specifically said about when a unit is locked in assault, other than on pg 21 where it tells you to refer to page 23, which conveniently has that sentence included.

I think that makes sense. Then again, i'm fairly tired.

tgf wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
I think the only way to get overwatch on the hive tyrant would be to decline overwatch on the gaunts, and hope for a crappy Charge Range roll that would bring them up short - their Charge fails, the tyrant declares a charge, and you now overwatch him.

If the gaunts' charge succeeds, you are locked in combat and cannot overwatch any more.

We have always it this way shoot the first declared or hope for a crappy charge roll.

That's how our group does it too, but I think DRs point is still a valid one. There is a hole in the rules that makes it unclear when a unit is considered locked. It clearly can't be mid-Charge Move, but it could be

(a) after the first successful charge move,
(b) at the end of the Charge Sub-phase = start of Fight Sub-phase, or
(c) as soon as the first model makes b2b contact and there is some unwritten rule that says it's OK to keep going with the Charge.

(a) and (c) are functionally equivalent. For different reasons, most people choose (a) which means you can't Overwatch after the Charge Move. That's what we do, but I'm happy to say this is probably RAI.

A couple of related items...

1. Does Hit-And-Run make any difference to the deliberations - just pointing out that this is an allowed move when locked?
2. If unit B charges after unit A has successfully completed its charge, does B get a cover save if Overwatch fire goes through A?
3. If Overwatch includes a flamer, would A get hit with Wall of Death hits too?

Questions (2) and (3) assume A's charge does not lock the target and that Overwatch is allowed on the 2nd charger.

As this discussion has gone on for quite a long time without firm resolution, maybe everyone should fire an FAQ email to GW to get them to tell us once and for all.