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p21, 3rd para says a Charge Move uses the same rules as Movement...

The Movement rules deny movement to LiC units in the Movement Phase (p10)

...unless I missed something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
It is self-evident that starting a Charge Move should not prevent the Charge Move from finishing.

That is RAI.

RAW they should be locked, unless there is a simple explanation like they do not get locked until the Fight Sub-phase.

Snapshot wrote:
I just checked, and p10 simply says that LiC units cannot move in the Movement Phase

Right, but P.10 only covers the movement phase, check P.23

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves" P.23

You're right. I hate the rulesmiths at GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, let's say unit A charges in, followed closely behind by unit B. I decline Overwatch against A, and fire on B. Does B get a 5+ cover save because the Overwatch is going through A?

 DeathReaper wrote:
If this were true in the Charge Sub-phase "Once a unit charges successfully and is in BTB the unit is locked" then only the first model could make its charge move.

Why are you applying a check at the individual model step when the rule refers to the unit taking an action? It doesn't say individual models can't move the moment one of them is in base to base, it says units in base to base.

Arbitrarily forcing a check on the unit as a whole when one model touches a model instead of at the completion of the charge move (since it doesn't say to stop and check at the model step) has ridiculous effects and is clearly incorrect?

DR can you show me another example of a unit being permitted to do something, and then halfway through being denied and forced to stop?

 snooggums wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If this were true in the Charge Sub-phase "Once a unit charges successfully and is in BTB the unit is locked" then only the first model could make its charge move.

Why are you applying a check at the individual model step when the rule refers to the unit taking an action? It doesn't say individual models can't move the moment one of them is in base to base, it says units in base to base.

Because the rules say we can not move whilst locked. (and the can not move whilst locked restriction does not give us a time to check, so this must be enforced at all times).

If models are locked when they are in base contact, then anytime models are in base contact they can not move.

The rules do not give a timeframe for when to check for locked so we must check at all times.

and P.23 says "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat" and when a unit is locked in combat it can not move except for pile in moves.

It doesn't say to stop and check before the Fight Sub-phase either. Arbitrarily forcing a check after the unit charges has no merit either.

Does the charging unit "have one or more models in base contact with enemies" when the first model reaches base contact?

If so then Either:
1)The unit is locked at that point because "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat"
Or
2) They are not locked until the Fight Sub-phase and they can continue their charge move.

O am inclined to go with 2 as it does not break the Charge move rules.

@Rig.
Wounding and models out of Line of Sight. you can score 10 wounds to a unit that has 10 models and no save of any kind, so 10 should die, but if 3 of those models are out of Line of Sight, you stop removing models, the wound pool empties, and three models live.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
It is self-evident that starting a Charge Move should not prevent the Charge Move from finishing.

That is RAI.

RAW they should be locked, unless there is a simple explanation like they do not get locked until the Fight Sub-phase.

This is where your trying to create a rule.

Snapshot wrote:
I just checked, and p10 simply says that LiC units cannot move in the Movement Phase

Right, but P.10 only covers the movement phase, check P.23

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves" P.23

Again your ignoring all of pg 21.

"The charging unit now moves into close combat with the unit(s)"

"All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move" ... Notice is says ALL of the models must make their charge move?

"following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they can be moved within l" of enemy models." The models are allowed to move within 1" of the enemy"

"After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire" Specific permission to move other models AFTER the first model is LIC. Specific vs general. So specific, there are 3 more paragraphs telling you HOW you have to move each model.

"If you follow this sequence, you will end up with all the models in the charging unit in unit coherency, having engaged as many enemy models as possible with as many charging models as possible." Again, notice ALL the models have to be moved.


RAW is clear. Your single out of context sentence does not override the half page of instruction and permission to move a unit into BTB with an enemy.

 DeathReaper wrote:

@Rig.
Wounding and models out of Line of Sight. you can score 10 wounds to a unit that has 10 models and no save of any kind, so 10 should die, but if 3 of those models are out of Line of Sight, you stop removing models, the wound pool empties, and three models live.

Poor example.
Out of Sight has explicit rules requiring you to check before every allocated wound.
Find the same thing in the Charge Move rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

@Rig.
Wounding and models out of Line of Sight. you can score 10 wounds to a unit that has 10 models and no save of any kind, so 10 should die, but if 3 of those models are out of Line of Sight, you stop removing models, the wound pool empties, and three models live.

That doesn't have anything to do with the order of operations, the three models who were out of sight were never eligible to be removed so they aren't.

A possible comparison to the current discussion would be fighting at initiative step, where combat ends if no one is eligible at a specific step. In that case, it clearly states that checking the end of combat is done at the initiative step, not at the end of combat. Since a charge move is a single action for the unit, the logical time to check whether the unit is in base to base is when the unit has completed an action, for example after the unit has finished their charge move since it does not specify a check at the individual model level.

That's the point I'm attempting to make - when setting up an interrupting action, they've spelled it out. There's no permission to interrupt the charge move.

Basically the "Locked in Combat" definition and the Charge Move instructions are in direct conflict.
We follow the Charge Move instructions because it is more specific; it applies only to the Charge Move action, in the Charge sub-phase, of the Assault Phase.
The "Locked in Combat" definition is more general because it applies to every action, in every sub-phase, of every phase.

There is no pattern to whether "can't" trumps "must" or vice versa. Examples both trumping either one, both ways around, have been given. The pattern is clear: the more specific rule trumps the more general rule.


So stop bringing up Charge Moves being impossible.. that's just stupid. The Locked in Combat/Overwatch debate is separate, both from a logical RAW perspective and a RAI perspective. Let's stick to that!

Can't Trumps must is a function of the permissive rule set.

The only thing that over-rides can't is a specific allowance that says it over rides the can't.

Like you can't assault the turn you arrive from reserve. (Exceptions are given specifically with Vanguard Veterans saying they can assault the turn they arrive from reserve, so that specific exception over-rides the can't assault, because it says they can assault on the turn they arrive.

Charge moves have no such language, and in fact you are restricted from charging when locked in assault.

I'd say the half page of Charge Move rules are a pretty "specific allowance" that overrides the general can't in LiC.

IF you prefer, we'll just say that Charge Moves are permitted because LiC is checked for on a unit level, rather than a model level. It is not checked for between the move of each of the models of the same unit during a Charge Move. I suppose this is similar to how squad coherency works, we only "interrupt" to check at the end of the entire unit's move, and not between each model's moves.
I'm fine with that then.

Back to topic? Or still more discussion of Charge Moves, while Overwatch/LiC falls by the wayside?

Cyke wrote:
I'd say the half page of Charge Move rules are a pretty "specific allowance" that overrides the general can't in LiC.

IF you prefer, we'll just say that Charge Moves are permitted because LiC is checked for on a unit level, rather than a model level. It is not checked for between the move of each of the models of the same unit during a Charge Move. I suppose this is similar to how squad coherency works, we only "interrupt" to check at the end of the entire unit's move, and not between each model's moves.
I'm fine with that then.

Back to topic? Or still more discussion of Charge Moves, while Overwatch/LiC falls by the wayside?

This has to do with the topic on hand. There are two stances:

One side claims that a unit is not locked in combat until the Fight sub-phase (until the combat is over). This allows models to complete their charge move, and the unit being charged to Overwatch any one of the charging units.
The other side claims that a unit is locked immediately as soon as a model is i base to base contact, but the models are allowed to make a non-legal move (as the only allowed move is Pile-In).

Cyke wrote:
I'd say the half page of Charge Move rules are a pretty "specific allowance" that overrides the general can't in LiC.

None of those rules in the Charge Move section specify that they over-ride the locked rules. As opposed to Vanguard Veterans that specify they can charge on the turn the arrive, when normally you can't charge the turn you arrive.

Cyke wrote:
IF you prefer, we'll just say that Charge Moves are permitted because LiC is checked for on a unit level, rather than a model level. It is not checked for between the move of each of the models of the same unit during a Charge Move.

Not true, If one model is locked then the unit is locked, as the locked rules specify that one or more models...

Also why are you arbitrarily checking on a unit level, rather than a model level? What rules do you have to back this view up?

Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

I am inclined to use 2, as 1 makes the locked rules useless.

Ah, okay, thanks Happyjew, I understand the relevance now. Sorry, I didn't get that.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Cyke wrote:
IF you prefer, we'll just say that Charge Moves are permitted because LiC is checked for on a unit level, rather than a model level. It is not checked for between the move of each of the models of the same unit during a Charge Move.

Not true, If one model is locked then the unit is locked, as the locked rules specify that one or more models...

Also why are you arbitrarily checking on a unit level, rather than a model level? What rules do you have to back this view up?

When I say it's applied on a "unit level", I mean on a temporal perspective, not a spatial one. You check for LiC, then you begin the unit's move. Once the entire unit has moved, you check for LiC again.
As opposed to on a "model level" from a temporal perspective, where you move one model, then interrupt to check for LiC. Move another model, interrupt to check for LiC.
This resolves the contradiction between LiC rules and Charge Move rules.

As I understand, this is the sole argument toward LiC only kicking on at the Initiative 10 step?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

Is the bolded portion really true?

How some people on this forum are even able to finish a game within 48 hours is beyond me. It seems like you're arguing just for the sake of arguing. And as for some of the replies; Really? Do you REALLY think you're not locked in combat as soon as the models touch each others bases?

Windir83 wrote:
How some people on this forum are even able to finish a game within 48 hours is beyond me. It seems like you're arguing just for the sake of arguing. And as for some of the replies; Really? Do you REALLY think you're not locked in combat as soon as the models touch each others bases?

Easy. We argue it all out here first...................... What did you really think the rule questions forum was for if not to debate the rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

I am inclined to use 2, as 1 makes the locked rules useless.

There are very specific times that tell us when to check for Locked in Combat. The rules tell us exactly when to check. And for specific permission, you again ignore pg 21.

You have zero RAW support for your argument.

Cyke wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

Is the bolded portion really true?

I have not found anything the says "Check at this point" or "Check at this step" or anything like that. (The only thing close to this is the Context of where the rules about being locked are, in the Fight Sub-phase).

If someone has a page where this info is, in case I overlooked it, please let me know.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

I am inclined to use 2, as 1 makes the locked rules useless.

There are very specific times that tell us when to check for Locked in Combat. The rules tell us exactly when to check. And for specific permission, you again ignore pg 21.

Page 21 says nothing about checking at a specific time.

Also, Specific permission to move must over-ride the can not move by specifically telling us it can move even if the unit is locked in combat (Like pile in moves do) otherwise you can not move. Page 21 does not give specific permission to over-ride the Locked rules.

Unless you are saying that you are told to move in the movement phase, but locked says you can not, that the movement rules give permission to over-ride the Locked rules as well.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Cyke wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

Is the bolded portion really true?

I have not found anything the says "Check at this point" or "Check at this step" or anything like that.

If someone has a page where this info is, in case I overlooked it, please let me know.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

I am inclined to use 2, as 1 makes the locked rules useless.

There are very specific times that tell us when to check for Locked in Combat. The rules tell us exactly when to check. And for specific permission, you again ignore pg 21.

Page 21 says nothing about checking at a specific time.

Now you avoid the argument by taking things out of context, yet again.

Pg 21 completely shuts down your argument about permission.

As far as telling use when to check for LiC. The rules clearly tell you when to check. For example, check page 12 about shooting... clearly states to check for LIC. And since the rules tell us when to check for LIC, obviously your #2 is wrong.

Now I am going to have dig thru the release drek for 6e, as I recall the GW WD press specificly talking about this specific issue.

Fragile wrote:
Now you avoid the argument by taking things out of context, yet again.

Why not read the rest of my Edit.

and P.21 does not say they can move when locked in combat, so they can not.

Permissive rule set tells us this is true, as the words " can make the charge move even if they are locked in combat" or something to that effect do not exist on that page. So the following is false:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 21 completely shuts down your argument about permission.

P.12 just tells us that if a unit is locked they can not shoot. It does not explicitly say to check at that point.

You see, DeathReaper, it doesn't HAVE to make a specific statement about overriding LiC on pg. 21.

The source of ALL your confusion stems from this:

DeathReaper wrote:Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

This is why you misinterpret LiC to be a state that has to "start" on Init step 10, when it's in fact something you check for instantaneously. Because you thought there is "nothing telling us when to check".

In fact, the rulebook DOES tell you when to check. It tells you when to check, each and every time.
And you DO check for LiC on an instant-to-instant basis, whenever it tells you to check.

Here's a list of some places it tells you when to check, I may have missed out some, though:
Page 10: Moving and Close Combat
Page 12: Who can shoot?
Page 20: Declarge Charge
Page 21: Overwatch Restrictions

So you see, on pg 20, it tells you to check for LiC before you begin your Charge Move, (temporally, on a unit level). It does not tell you to check in between individual model moves, which is why you don't.
Not important, but it might help you to understand that the intention and logic behind this is similar normal movement and squad coherency. You check before the unit begins moving, and after, but not in between individual models.

Aaaand lastly, on page 21, Overwatch Restrictions, it tells you to check again for LiC. The point of the whole topic. RAW.

I hope I've cleared up your confusion, but if this doesn't do it, I don't know what will, so I'm out for the day.

I never said that "LiC to be a state that has to "start" on Init step 10" Far from it.


I Agree with "it's in fact something you check for instantaneously" so as soon as the condition happens the rules take effect. The rules no longer have an effect when there are no more models in base contact.

So it is something we must check for at all times, as the conditions are still being met outside of the assault phase.

Page 23 tells us about Locked under "Who can fight" and those rules are in the Fight Sub-Phase. Basically it gives us a condition (Units that have one or more models in base contact with
enemies) and tells us what happens when this condition is fulfilled (are locked in combat.)

So If A then B.

Does a charging unit have one or more models in base contact with enemies when the initial charger makes base contact with the enemy?

If Yes (A) then they are locked in combat. (B)

Cyke wrote:

Page 10: Moving and Close Combat
Page 12: Who can shoot?
Page 20: Declarge Charge
Page 21: Overwatch Restrictions

None of those say "Check if the unit is Locked in CC".

They are all predicated on an existing condition.
(Note P.10 says "units already locked in close combat with the enemy cannot move during the Movement phase."

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Now you avoid the argument by taking things out of context, yet again.

Why not read the rest of my Edit.

and P.21 does not say they can move when locked in combat, so they can not.

Permissive rule set tells us this is true, as the words " can make the charge move even if they are locked in combat" or something to that effect do not exist on that page. So the following is false:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 21 completely shuts down your argument about permission.

P.12 just tells us that if a unit is locked they can not shoot. It does not explicitly say to check at that point.

Strange, pg 21 clearly states you can move models when they are in BTB with the enemy. But you keep ignoring that page since it shuts down your argument.

And checks are done at any time you perform an action that has a restriction. If there is no restriction such as LIC, there is no need to do a check.

Fragile wrote:
Strange, pg 21 clearly states you can move models when they are in BTB with the enemy.

Mind quoting the rule? I see nothing about moving models when they are in BTB with the enemy on page 21

I already did, several posts back.

Nothing in what you quoted several posts back states "you can move models when they are in BTB with the enemy"

Fragile wrote:
"All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move" ... Notice is says ALL of the models must make their charge move?

Did you mean this blurb?

Notice how Can't Trumps Must in a permissive ruleset, unless you have specific permission to over-ride the Can't?


"All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move" does not give specific permission to over-ride the cant move except for Pile In moves rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

@Rig.
Wounding and models out of Line of Sight. you can score 10 wounds to a unit that has 10 models and no save of any kind, so 10 should die, but if 3 of those models are out of Line of Sight, you stop removing models, the wound pool empties, and three models live.

Poor example.
Out of Sight has explicit rules requiring you to check before every allocated wound.
Find the same thing in the Charge Move rules.

rigeld2 wrote:That's the point I'm attempting to make - when setting up an interrupting action, they've spelled it out. There's no permission to interrupt the charge move.

DR - mind replying?

Page 23. makes you interrupt the move.

as I have stated before:

Page 23 tells us about Locked under "Who can fight" and those rules are in the Fight Sub-Phase. Basically it gives us a condition (Units that have one or more models in base contact with
enemies) and tells us what happens when this condition is fulfilled (are locked in combat.)

So If A then B.

Does a charging unit have one or more models in base contact with enemies when the initial charger makes base contact with the enemy?

If Yes (A) then they are locked in combat. (B)

That is the permission to interrupt, because once the initial charger is in Base contact, you fulfill the condition, and are bound by the locked rules. (Unless there is a simple explanation like you are not locked until the Fight Sub-phase. Conveniently, that is where the Locked rules are, in the Fight Sub-Phase heading).

I don't see permission to interrupt there - I've been granted permission to move as a unit, and nothing denied that permission at the time.
Page 23 doesn't retroactively deny my permission, and there's no requirement to check for locked during my charge move (that I've already been allowed to do) (we know this because its not referenced anywhere).

Show the requirement to stop referencing the charge move rules and do something else.