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Well my local flgs has been playing this way for a while now, and i'm not so sure it's correct.

a flamer unit has done it's duty and is out in the open, and a hive tyrant is staring them down. Right next to the hive tyrant are a unit that has almost been wiped out of three termagaunts. All claims that this guy has made have been that he can choose which unit is charging first, and my flamer unit can only overwatch against them and not the hive tyrant.

He claims that once they make the charge with his gaunts, the flamer unit can't overwatch because they are locked in combat. But i believe that the book states something like they are only locked in combat at the start of their initiative step, and can overwatch against the hive tyrant.

Let me know what you guys think,
Thisisnotpancho

Flamers may ovrrwatch with the Wall of Death rile. Basically each flamer gets D3 hits for overwatch.

It confused me too...

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Flamers may ovrrwatch with the Wall of Death rile. Basically each flamer gets D3 hits for overwatch.

It confused me too...

Sorry thats not what I am thinking he is asking.

Your friend is correct. When he declares a charge you must declare overwatch or not. If you choose to let the gaunts in without targeting them then you can not target the hive tyrant as they are already in combat and therefore may not shoot. You work out charges one at a time. Sorry.

Yeah. He is cheesing you but thats how it works.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Yeah. He is cheesing you but thats how it works.

Basic tactics is cheese now yay!

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Yeah. He is cheesing you but thats how it works.

No he's not, he's following the rules. It isn't anywhere close to cheese, as the rulebook practically hands out this strategy to players like it's a plate of cookies.

Besides, what's wrong with a Hive Tyrant forcing gaunts to charge in as a distraction?

Well if you look at the rules for CC you will see that you are not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-Phase, so you can overwatch against any unit that charges you.

Page 23 under who can fight.

It's Schrodengers Assault. Models are and are not locked in combat. You just don't know which until the start of the Fight sub-phase.

So, the line on page 23 that says "units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." doesn't mean what it says?

Ya, I guess it is under fight sub-phase, but that seems a bit more all-inclusive than it's interpreted as. *Shrug*

I think the only way to get overwatch on the hive tyrant would be to decline overwatch on the gaunts, and hope for a crappy Charge Range roll that would bring them up short - their Charge fails, the tyrant declares a charge, and you now overwatch him.

If the gaunts' charge succeeds, you are locked in combat and cannot overwatch any more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even though locked in combat is defined in Fight Sub-Phase, it is telling us that units with at least one model in b2b is LiC. After the charge move you are in b2b, therefore LiC.

 Kevin949 wrote:
So, the line on page 23 that says "units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." doesn't mean what it says?

Ya, I guess it is under fight sub-phase, but that seems a bit more all-inclusive than it's interpreted as. *Shrug*

If that applied outisde of the first fight subhase, as soon as one model reaches assault, you can no longer move ANY model in the unit, as the unit is not making a Pile In move - the only type of move allowed when locked

This amply disproves that you become locked immediately, and thus only become locked at the fight subphase

It's only engaged in combat at the start of its initiative step

So right after the combat is over, i.e. the ensuing movement phase of the next player, then models are no longer locked in combat and can move freely since they are no longer in the fight subphase?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
So, the line on page 23 that says "units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." doesn't mean what it says?

Ya, I guess it is under fight sub-phase, but that seems a bit more all-inclusive than it's interpreted as. *Shrug*

If that applied outisde of the first fight subhase, as soon as one model reaches assault, you can no longer move ANY model in the unit, as the unit is not making a Pile In move - the only type of move allowed when locked

This amply disproves that you become locked immediately, and thus only become locked at the fight subphase

So does this mean that it is OK to decline Overwatch on the first unit that charges me, and save it up for the second? I thought that was not allowed.

You are never forced to Overwatch - it's always an option.
It's just a gamble to not take it on the first unit that charges.

I know that, but if I REALLY wanted to Overwatch the 2nd unit am allowed to do so, even though the first unit has charged and is now in b2b contact with me?

[Editted for grammar]

40k-noob wrote:
So right after the combat is over, i.e. the ensuing movement phase of the next player, then models are no longer locked in combat and can move freely since they are no longer in the fight subphase?

No, as "units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat."

So you are still locked in combat on a subsequent turn.

The reason you are not locked until the Flight Sub-Phase is because you would have to stop moving as soon as the initial charger reaches base contact. Which of course breaks rules. and we should strive to "Break no rule"

Except the rules very specifically allow for moving your entire unit when charging.... in fact, they *require* it.

coredump wrote:
Except the rules very specifically allow for moving your entire unit when charging.... in fact, they *require* it.

Yeah, I'm not quite sure where we're going with the whole locked-in-combat argument, except to possibly to get to the position where we allow the Overwatching of a 2nd unit after a 1st unit has already charged and engaged us (in the same Charge sub-phase). I thought that was not allowed, but I'm definitely open to be convinced I'm wrong.

Snapshot wrote:

Yeah, I'm not quite sure where we're going with the whole locked-in-combat argument, except to possibly to get to the position where we allow the Overwatching of a 2nd unit after a 1st unit has already charged and engaged us (in the same Charge sub-phase). I thought that was not allowed, but I'm definitely open to be convinced I'm wrong.

There are people who are claiming that merely having models in base contact with enemy models is enough to say that the unit is locked in combat. This is to say that units who are base to base cannot fire overwatch, because you cannot fire overwatch if you are locked in combat. The direction that this discussion is heading is that being in "base to base" and being "locked in combat" are not necessarily the same thing, because units aren't "locked in combat" until the Fight Sub-Phase which takes place AFTER all charging units have been moved. This means that if one unit successfully charges an enemy unit and that enemy unit does NOT fire overwatch, it is free to fire overwatch against any other units that charge it that turn because it is NOT locked in combat until after all the charging units have been moved and the Fight Sub-Phase is reached, regardless of how many models are in base to base.

At least, this is my understanding of the debate.

I agree with the unit being able to fire at one of whichever units charge it. It prevents a player slamming 2 gaunts into a HB LF squad to prevent the tyrant that was about to slam into them having to take any hits.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I agree with the unit being able to fire at one of whichever units charge it. It prevents a player slamming 2 gaunts into a HB LF squad to prevent the tyrant that was about to slam into them having to take any hits.

... It prevents tactics?

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I agree with the unit being able to fire at one of whichever units charge it. It prevents a player slamming 2 gaunts into a HB LF squad to prevent the tyrant that was about to slam into them having to take any hits.

... It prevents tactics?

No, rather It allows tactics on both sides.

Attacker decides who to assault with first. Defender decides who to fire overwatch on. Both are tactics, decisions to be made that may affect the outcome of a battle.

coredump wrote:
Except the rules very specifically allow for moving your entire unit when charging.... in fact, they *require* it.

And "Can't move", overrides "Must move".

Except that "can't move" is from a general rule for being 'locked' and "must move" is from a specific rule for being locked while charging.


If a Pile In can over-ride the 'locked' restriction, there is no reason why a Charge cannot.

Pile-in overrides the "cannot move" by the sole virtue of being given specific permission to make said moves when locked in combat.

 DeathReaper wrote:

coredump wrote:
Except the rules very specifically allow for moving your entire unit when charging.... in fact, they *require* it.

And "Can't move", overrides "Must move".

I disagree.

For example, a unit "can't" disembark from a transport if it move more than 6" however if that transport is wrecked by the enemy shooting the unit "Must" disembark.

Can't in it of itself does not override Must. Context is what matters.

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

coredump wrote:
Except the rules very specifically allow for moving your entire unit when charging.... in fact, they *require* it.

And "Can't move", overrides "Must move".

I disagree.

For example, a unit "can't" disembark from a transport if it move more than 6" however if that transport is wrecked by the enemy shooting the unit "Must" disembark.

Can't in it of itself does not override Must. Context is what matters.

Your example is not relevant, as the vehicle can not move in your opponents phase.

You can't disembark in your opponents phase either, that is why there is a specific exception allowing the disembark if your vehicle is wrecked by enemy shooting.

Moving in for assault is specified that it can not be done if locked in combat. P.20 tells us this.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Moving in for assault is specified that it can not be done if locked in combat. P.20 tells us this.

Absolutely false.

Page 20 prevents a unit that is locked in combat from declaring a charge.

BRB Page 20 wrote:Some units are disallowed from charging. Common reasons a
unit is not allowed to declare a charge include:
•The unit is already locked in close combat (see page 23)

Once you're past that you have no such restriction.

I see the argument on both sides, and yes you move one then declair with the next, however this is all appening with split second moves and such though you do it one at a time, for the sanity of the game. If you send in a sqaud and I elect to not overwath them but save it for the second potential charger who is coming at the same time I get to.

Remeber theres a rule that say you may overwatch only once per squad per assault phase. Why make this distinction if you could only do it on the initial unit that moves. Its a choice for both player, its tactics and whats lame is sending in a feint squad only to save your best. Thats cheesy. I tell who Im charging and let my opponent choose since it makes for a funner game. However I like dice rolling and not too much gak going on.