Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged, using the shortest possible.....

Moves the first model into BTB.

After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire, providing you abide by the following conditions:

Specific permission to move the rest of the unit and gives 3 bullet point restrictions on how to move those models.

Fragile wrote:

After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire, providing you abide by the following conditions:

Specific permission to move the rest of the unit and gives 3 bullet point restrictions on how to move those models.

That is not specific permission.

Specific permission is something like MC's ability to fire two of their weapons in the shooting phase, when the regular rules say you can fire one weapon in the shooting phase.

Nothing on P.21 gives specific permission to over-ride the 'can't move while locked in combat' rule.

rigeld2 wrote:
Show the requirement to stop referencing the charge move rules and do something else.

The Locked rules give us a condition (Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies) and tells us what happens when this condition is fulfilled (are locked in combat.)

Once that condition is met the rule must be enforced or you are breaking the rules.

You mean other than the permission to move other models while one of your models was in BTB during a charge move? Other than the specific way in which those models have to move.


You quote the very rule that proves your viewpoint wrong.

Happyjew wrote:
This has to do with the topic on hand. There are two stances:

One side claims that a unit is not locked in combat until the Fight sub-phase (until the combat is over). This allows models to complete their charge move, and the unit being charged to Overwatch any one of the charging units.

The other side claims that a unit is locked immediately as soon as a model is i base to base contact, but the models are allowed to make a non-legal move (as the only allowed move is Pile-In).

There's a third side, that the unit is locked after the charging unit is finished moving so a unit that was charged can't over watch a second (or third, etc.) unit since they are already locked. That is the stance that matches the rules.

Fragile wrote:
You mean other than the permission to move other models while one of your models was in BTB during a charge move? Other than the specific way in which those models have to move.

Where in there does it specify that you may move models even if the unit is locked in combat? (Hint: It does not say that).

 snooggums wrote:
There's a third side, that the unit is locked after the charging unit is finished moving so a unit that was charged can't over watch a second (or third, etc.) unit since they are already locked. That is the stance that matches the rules.

No, it really does not match the RAW.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You mean other than the permission to move other models while one of your models was in BTB during a charge move? Other than the specific way in which those models have to move.

Where in there does it specify that you may move models even if the unit is locked in combat? (Hint: It does not say that).

 snooggums wrote:
There's a third side, that the unit is locked after the charging unit is finished moving so a unit that was charged can't over watch a second (or third, etc.) unit since they are already locked. That is the stance that matches the rules.

No, it really does not match the RAW.

It does, even if you think it doesn't.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You mean other than the permission to move other models while one of your models was in BTB during a charge move? Other than the specific way in which those models have to move.

Where in there does it specify that you may move models even if the unit is locked in combat? (Hint: It does not say that).

Locked in combat is defined as being in BTB with the enemy:

Pg 23. Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat.

And your saying a rule that tells you how to move your models WHILE one of your models is in BTB (aka LOCKED) does not say that?

Again your trying to take rules out of context to justify a position that has zero RAW support. The definition of Locked in Combat defeats your own position but you ignore it.

 snooggums wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You mean other than the permission to move other models while one of your models was in BTB during a charge move? Other than the specific way in which those models have to move.

Where in there does it specify that you may move models even if the unit is locked in combat? (Hint: It does not say that).

 snooggums wrote:
There's a third side, that the unit is locked after the charging unit is finished moving so a unit that was charged can't over watch a second (or third, etc.) unit since they are already locked. That is the stance that matches the rules.

No, it really does not match the RAW.

It does, even if you think it doesn't.

I have provided rules quotes to back my position. Those quotes say it really does not match the RAW.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You mean other than the permission to move other models while one of your models was in BTB during a charge move? Other than the specific way in which those models have to move.

Where in there does it specify that you may move models even if the unit is locked in combat? (Hint: It does not say that).

Locked in combat is defined as being in BTB with the enemy:

Pg 23. Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat.

And your saying a rule that tells you how to move your models WHILE one of your models is in BTB (aka LOCKED) does not say that?

Again your trying to take rules out of context to justify a position that has zero RAW support. The definition of Locked in Combat defeats your own position but you ignore it.

It tells you how to make a Charge move.

It does not say that you can move while locked. It needs to say you can moved while locked to over-ride that Page 23 rule.

Either that or you do not become locked until the rules say you are locked, which is on Page 23, under the Fight Sub-Phase.

It makes perfect sense that you can move models in the charge sub-phase, because we are not told you are locked until the rules in the Fight Sub-Phase say you are locked. Context matters.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You mean other than the permission to move other models while one of your models was in BTB during a charge move? Other than the specific way in which those models have to move.

Where in there does it specify that you may move models even if the unit is locked in combat? (Hint: It does not say that).

Locked in combat is defined as being in BTB with the enemy:

Pg 23. Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat.

And your saying a rule that tells you how to move your models WHILE one of your models is in BTB (aka LOCKED) does not say that?

Again your trying to take rules out of context to justify a position that has zero RAW support. The definition of Locked in Combat defeats your own position but you ignore it.

I'm flip-flopping all over the place with this.

I'm with most people in this thread that is basically saying (RAI) that executing the Charge Move lets you move the unit into B2B, and assuming the Charge Move succeeds, you are LiC - which means you cannot fire Overwatch against another unit that charges you (which is where this thread actually started).

However, I can see what DR is saying. RAW, if at any time a model is in b2b, the unit is LiC and can't move except for Pile Ins. This is explicit on p23. Making no move can reasonably be argued to include not being able to complete the Charge Move that caused the LiC condition. So in order to complete the Charge Move, we can't be LiC yet. This begs the question WHEN are we LiC. Candidates are a) at the end of the Charge Move, or b) at the start of Fight Sub-phase.

The only evidence we have is (b), as LiC is defined there.

Having said all that, I am sure I saw something from GW that basically supported the (a) case, and another poster said he'd seen the same thing. Problem is I can't find it - checked FAQs, BRB, and June+ WDs.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I have provided rules quotes to back my position. Those quotes say it really does not match the RAW.

But you havent. The only thing you have done is take a section of the rules and try to apply it to stop a unit from taking an action in mid action. Cite me the rule that says that LIC only occurs in the Fight Sub Phase. (Hint: You can't). LIC is defined as in BTB with an enemy. The Charge Move is the action that puts you in BTB with an enemy. Once that charge move is done, then you are LIC. The charge rules clearly allow "movement" while members of the unit are in BTB.

It does not say that you can move while locked. It needs to say you can moved while locked to over-ride that Page 23 rule.

It doesnt, it is clearly a more specific rule that explains the process of how your Unit is allowed to move into BTB with the enemy.

Either that or you do not become locked until the rules say you are locked, which is on Page 23, under the Fight Sub-Phase.

Yes the rules say you are locked in combat when you are in BTB with the enemy. Which occurs with the charge move.

It makes perfect sense that you can move models in the charge sub-phase, because we are not told you are locked until the rules in the Fight Sub-Phase say you are locked.

Again, cite the rule that states this.

However, I can see what DR is saying. RAW, if at any time a model is in b2b, the unit is LiC and can't move except for Pile Ins. This is explicit on p23. Making no move can reasonably be argued to include not being able to complete the Charge Move that caused the LiC condition. So in order to complete the Charge Move, we can't be LiC yet. This begs the question WHEN are we LiC. Candidates are a) at the end of the Charge Move, or b) at the start of Fight Sub-phase.

DR wants to break this into a model by model issue but its a Unit issue.

""While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot.""

1. The Unit declares it is going to charge. It must check then to see if it is allowed to charge. Therefore it must check to see if.
a. it is already locked in combat
b. it shot rapid fire weapons....etc..
c. gone to ground
d. ran in the shooting phase.
e. falling back.

If the unit passes all these checks it is allowed to make its action. It can then follow the charge rules laid out on page 20. The declare the charge step is the only place where LIC is checked for...(pg20). Once it has declared the charge it must follow all the steps for charging.

":"The charging unit now moves into close combat with the... "" Tells you the UNIT moves..
""All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move.. "" Tells you that you have to move ALL of your models..
""Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged.."" Is the spot where DR claims unit is not locked (notice we already passed the check for LIC point)
""After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others"" Permission to move your other models after having a model in BTB with the enemy (Note this is the definition of LIC)

Once completed the unit is in BTB with the enemy and therefore LIC. Nothing in the rules tells you to check for LIC during the charge action. Someone above I believe listed all the placed where you are explicitly told to check for LIC. Mid charge is not one of them.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It does not say that you can move while locked. It needs to say you can moved while locked to over-ride that Page 23 rule.

It doesnt, it is clearly a more specific rule that explains the process of how your Unit is allowed to move into BTB with the enemy.

Can't Trumps Must, unless there is a specific exception, which the Charge move rules do not have.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Either that or you do not become locked until the rules say you are locked, which is on Page 23, under the Fight Sub-Phase.

Yes the rules say you are locked in combat when you are in BTB with the enemy. Which occurs when one or more models are in base contact with an enemy. when the Initial charger makes Base Contact.

Fixed that for you with the orange. (See the Underlined below for the rules quote on exactly when this occurs).

Fragile wrote:
Once that charge move is done, then you are LIC.

Yet at no point do the rules actually say this.

They say: "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." P.23

Does a unit that has one model in Base Contact fulfill this condition?


P.S. It is probably best to wait for an FAQ on this at this point.

There is an exception. The rule telling you to specifically move your models while the initial charger is in BTB.

They say: "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." P.23

Does a unit that has one model in Base Contact fulfill this condition?

Yes, but it doesnt support your argument any. When do you check for LIC?. At Declare Charge for the Attacker, and Resolve Overwatch for the Defender. (Also movement and shooting phase, but those are not applicable.)

P.S. It is probably best to wait for an FAQ on this at this point.

Now this I agree with you on. The problem comes when someone asks and everyone says "Yes/No" and we get into this debate again rather than just saying "Its debatable" and letting it die like the last thread until a FAQ comes out.

Fragile wrote:
There is an exception. The rule telling you to specifically move your models while the initial charger is in BTB.

There needs to be a specific exception, otherwise can't trumps must. Charge move rules do not have a specific exception.

Except you're attempting to interrupt an action without specific allowance.

Where in the charge move rules does it say to check and see if you're locked in combat? Quote the sentence please.

rigeld2 wrote:
Except you're attempting to interrupt an action without specific allowance.

Where in the charge move rules does it say to check and see if you're locked in combat? Quote the sentence please.

I already have: "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." P.23

Is the Initial Charger in Base contact with the enemy?

Does the initial charger fulfill the condition of "one or more models in base contact"?

If yes, then can not move.


But I think this has gone as far as it can, so either way an FaQ would help.

You only check for LIC when you declare the charge, or declare the overwatch. You dont apply it mid charge. There is no check for it.

That's not in the charge rules, so no - you haven't already.
I asked for something in the charge rules that is making you check for LiC. Hint - it doesn't exist.

Your interpretation requires interrupting a required process with no rules based reason. You've provided no similar examples when asked (you brought up allocating wounds which isn't similar) and when I asked for more examples, you failed to give any and re-quoted the rule that doesn't actually give you permission to interrupt like you think it does.

I have permission to perform an action. I begin performing the action. Where is you permission to stop me in the middle of performing that action? Page 23 doesn't give it at all.

I'll be honest Either way after this argument I would really like to see a Faq/errata or even an Inat stance on overwatch vs multiplle chargees.

I agree. I've sent my contribution to the GW FAQ line.

rigeld2 wrote:
That's not in the charge rules, so no - you haven't already.
I asked for something in the charge rules that is making you check for LiC. Hint - it doesn't exist.

Is there something in the charge rules that gives a specific exception to move whilst locked? Hint - it doesn't exist.

rigeld2 wrote:
Your interpretation requires interrupting a required process with no rules based reason. You've provided no similar examples when asked (you brought up allocating wounds which isn't similar) and when I asked for more examples, you failed to give any and re-quoted the rule that doesn't actually give you permission to interrupt like you think it does.

I have permission to perform an action. I begin performing the action. Where is you permission to stop me in the middle of performing that action? Page 23 doesn't give it at all.

Here is the permission to stop you:
"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." P.23

Is the Initial Charger in Base Contact with an enemy? (Yes)

Then you are locked and can not move.

It is not a check that is only performed once in a while, it is an ongoing condition when enemies are in Base Contact.

Well if he wipes out the gaunts with the flamers then he won't be locked in comnat and able to perform over watch again.

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
Well if he wipes out the gaunts with the flamers then he won't be locked in comnat and able to perform over watch again.

Not true. Read Overwatch Restrictions Page 21.

Look, DeathReaper, everyone has already explained it to you very clearly, over and over again.

"Locked in Combat" affects the Charge during "Declare a Charge" on pg 20. It's a check that is done at that instant, and if you're in the clear, you perform all the steps of the Charge move rules

It does NOT kick in between individual models suddenly, while a player is in the middle of moving his models for a Charge move. You don't get to wait for your opponent to move his Initial Charger, then suddenly stand up and go "HA! YOUR INITIAL CHARGER IS TOUCHING MY MODEL! LOCKED! YOU CAN'T MOVE YOUR OTHER CHARGERS!".
This is very, very, very clear to everyone, RAW.


It also says during Overwatch Restrictions, pg 21, that you cannot fire Overwatch while Locked in Combat. It's a check done in that instant, and if you're not in the clear, you can't fire.


Basically you are still sticking to this:

DeathReaper wrote:Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

..even though it's already been explained to you that it is blatantly untrue. You are specifically told when to apply checks for Locked in Combat. So, no, we do not "check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check." Because each and every specific time that you are meant to check for Locked in Combat, the rulebook will clearly tell you. I even helpfully listed all the instants where we are told to check!


I'm convinced now that it's not a misunderstanding; you just reeeeaaaaaally want to be able to hold back your Overwatch fire to choose which charger to shoot at, and logic be damned. You're just going to push a convoluted misreading of the Charge rules to say that Charge Moves are impossible, unless you get your way with Overwatch.

If that's the case, just wait for an FAQ ruling. Maybe it will rule in favour of holding back Overwatch fire, and we'll all play that way. Unfortunately, RAW, that's not how it works.

It's hilarious how some people say that it's "cheesy" to use an actual tactic to get around Overwatch.

inb4 charging a squad of 10 tac marines with a melee-focused squad is cheesy!

 Sigvatr wrote:
It's hilarious how some people say that it's "cheesy" to use an actual tactic to get around Overwatch.

Who said that?

Cyke wrote:
Look, DeathReaper, everyone has already explained it to you very clearly, over and over again.

"Locked in Combat" affects the Charge during "Declare a Charge" on pg 20. It's a check that is done at that instant, and if you're in the clear, you perform all the steps of the Charge move rules.

It is not a check that you do only at specific times, it is an ongoing condition when enemies are in Base Contact. So at all times if one model is in base contact with an enemy the unit is locked. (The language on Page 23 does not mention timing, rather gives us a trigger condition, and when that condition is met the rules take effect). How it this unclear?

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
That's not in the charge rules, so no - you haven't already.
I asked for something in the charge rules that is making you check for LiC. Hint - it doesn't exist.

Is there something in the charge rules that gives a specific exception to move whilst locked? Hint - it doesn't exist.

rigeld2 wrote:
Your interpretation requires interrupting a required process with no rules based reason. You've provided no similar examples when asked (you brought up allocating wounds which isn't similar) and when I asked for more examples, you failed to give any and re-quoted the rule that doesn't actually give you permission to interrupt like you think it does.

I have permission to perform an action. I begin performing the action. Where is you permission to stop me in the middle of performing that action? Page 23 doesn't give it at all.

Here is the permission to stop you:
"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." P.23

Is the Initial Charger in Base Contact with an enemy? (Yes)

Then you are locked and can not move.

It is not a check that is only performed once in a while, it is an ongoing condition when enemies are in Base Contact.

So the check before declaring a charge, and the check before normal movement are redundant?
And the check for Consolidation?
Sweeping Advance isn't movement, can I do that while locked? Oh, no - there's a check there.
There's a check in the shooting in/out of close combat as well.

Your assertion that we aren't told when to check and therefore must always apply the rule is demonstrably false.
Do you have another rules based leg to stand on?

 DeathReaper wrote:

Can't Trumps Must, unless there is a specific exception, which the Charge move rules do not have.

Does "Can" make it even?

If the initial charger successfully moves into base contact with the
primary target, remaining models can charge models belonging
to either the primary or secondary target units, as long as they
follow the rules for moving charging models.

I'm also going to say that you can only over watch while not having anything else in B2B contact from a "shooting attack" side of things.

rigeld2 wrote:
So the check before declaring a charge, and the check before normal movement are redundant?
And the check for Consolidation?
Sweeping Advance isn't movement, can I do that while locked? Oh, no - there's a check there.
There's a check in the shooting in/out of close combat as well.

Your assertion that we aren't told when to check and therefore must always apply the rule is demonstrably false.
Do you have another rules based leg to stand on?

Where, in any of those rules, does it say "Check for Locked in combat?
It is not there.

The movement rules even say: "units already locked in close combat"P. 10, so it is clearly an ongoing condition, and not something that is only checked for at certain times.

Stormbreed wrote:
Does "Can" make it even?

If the initial charger successfully moves into base contact with the
primary target, remaining models can charge models belonging
to either the primary or secondary target units, as long as they
follow the rules for moving charging models.

Can't trumps can/must.

 DeathReaper wrote:
[The movement rules even say: "units already locked in close combat"P. 10, so it is clearly an ongoing condition, and not something that is only checked for at certain.

It says already locked in combat because the Game Turn is sequential. Move -> Shoot ->Assault. Therefore you cannot be locked in combat unless it is from a previous turn.

As for the checks...

""MOVING AND CLOSE COMBAT
Units already locked in close combat with the enemy cannot move during the Movement phase. "" You would check here..

""WHO CAN SHOOT
Certain situations prevent a model from firing The most common are:
. Their unit is locked in close cornbat with the foe."" You could check here....

"""some units are disallowed from charging. common reasons a unit is not allowed to declare a charge include:
. The unit is already locked in close combat (see page 23).""" And also here....

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
[The movement rules even say: "units already locked in close combat"P. 10, so it is clearly an ongoing condition, and not something that is only checked for at certain.

It says already locked in combat because the Game Turn is sequential. Move -> Shoot ->Assault. Therefore you cannot be locked in combat unless it is from a previous turn.

Thank you for confirming that it is an ongoing condition.