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So, the thing with the BCs Ap. Back in the day, it never made sense to take +S weapons (including things like great weapons), unless they also ignored armor, like relic blades, as a weapon that straight-up ignored armor was almost always better.

We're in 6th, though, which makes this much more nuanced. The old always ignores armor weapons now have more serious drawbacks (one of the things challenges was designed to do), while there has become a greater diversity in Ap of close combat weapons.

As such, I think the BC shouldn't be quite as auto-excluded anymore, for the same reason that the power maul shouldn't be either. In a world where you're no longer just automatically ignoring armor, rolling better to wound suddenly looks much more favorably to preventing your opponent from rolling armor saves. Going from wounding space marines on 4 to wounding them on 2's is roughly the same as reducing their armor save from 3+ to a 6+ save. That's almost the same as if the nob had a power sword.

 Ailaros wrote:

As such, I think the BC shouldn't be quite as auto-excluded anymore, for the same reason that the power maul shouldn't be either. In a world where you're no longer just automatically ignoring armor, rolling better to wound suddenly looks much more favorably to preventing your opponent from rolling armor saves. Going from wounding space marines on 4 to wounding them on 2's is roughly the same as reducing their armor save from 3+ to a 6+ save. That's almost the same as if the nob had a power sword.

Quickly rounding the numbers, assuming our Nobz are fighting MEQ (WS4, T4, 3+ armor):
Stock Nob (charge)-5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 1.67 Wounds, 0.56 dead Marines.
BC Nob (charge)-4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.67 Wounds, 0.56 dead Marines.
PK Nob (charge)-4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.67 Wounds, 1.67 dead Marines.
Imaginary Nob with Power Sword&pistol(charge)-5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 1.67 Wounds, 1.67 dead Marines

Stock Nob(no charge)-4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 Wound, 0.33 dead Marines.
BC Nob (no charge)-3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 Wounds, 0.42 dead Marines.
PK Nob (no charge)-3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 Wounds, 1.25 dead Marines.
Imaginary Nob with Power Sword&pistol (no charge)-4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 Wound, 1 dead Marine.

Let me know if I have made mistakes, but I don't get your math. Where is the "reducing armor save" effect? It doesn't seem to even make a difference on the charge. The BC, in terms of power, is a small plus when not charging, but nothing compared to PK. You can say that the BC strikes in initiative order and is cheap, and you would be right, but claiming that it's almost as good as the PK in killing MEQ is plain ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And forgot to mention: Even with a BC, you're attacking after Marines anyway. No more +1I with FC.

No, the math isn't much wrong. I'd forgotten about the +1A for the regular choppa (I was thinking about klaws at the time), but the big choppa is still 25% better.

And lets not forget that you can still bonk vehicles pretty badly with S6 on rear armor.

BC's are better than stock when not charging, correct. But when you're not charging, your Boyz aren't doing much, so I'm not sure how much difference the one BC will make. Against vehicles, I doesn't matter so the PK is far superior. IMO the BC is trying to do two things at once, and failing at doing either very well. A slight challenge upgrade? Maybe. Ok against vehicles? Yes. Cheap? Sure. Anything else? No. So the BC is still a second-rate upgrade for me which I'll take only if I don't know what to do with some leftover points.

Hedkrakka wrote:Against vehicles, I doesn't matter so the PK is far superior.

But if nobody is taking power klaws any more, then the fact that they're superior is irrelevant.

It's part of the versatility thing. BC can handle challenges AND vehicles better than a PK or just a regular choppa. Those other weapons may be better for one or the other, but the BC cares much less about what its coming up against than a PK that you're going to have to be really careful to try and keep it out of challenges, or a regular choppa which will be basically worthless against vehicles.

For the BC, it's simple:

1.) Is it in front of me?
2.) Why am in not already choppin it yet?

While I respect your point of view, I disagree. A PK swings at I1 and ignores armor. A BC swings at I3 and is AP-. So with a BC the only armies you can strike before they hit you are other Orks, Tau and Necrons. Tau sergeants are a joke, a choppa is enough, a PK is overkill. Necrons don't have sergeants, and an Overlord w/Sempiternal Weave and Warscythe certainly isn't going to challenge you if you have no PK. If you challenge him, no equipment can save you, so you might as well take a regular Nob. So BC is only best against other Orks and IG, who are I3 but can spam sergeants like crazy, shutting you down till kingdom come and have a lot of rear AV10 vehicles? Who else would you use a BC against? Cultists? Meh. I call that "situational" rather than "versatile".
BTW, "no one takes PKs anymore" isn't true.

 Ailaros wrote:

Alltheones wrote:I may be wrong but i thought there was a handy way of stopping the opponent challenging your nob in the first round of combat? I thought if you charge and keep him out of the 3 inch area he cannot be challenged, then when its your intiative you can move him in?

Nope.

If you take the reading of a vague and somewhat contradictory rule that a model can not be challenged or issue a challenge if it is not engaged at the start of the fight phase, then you must take the standpoint that nobody can ever challenge each other ever, as no model is ever engaged at the start of the fight phase, regardless of how close it is to opponent's models.

A similar situation arises from over watch and being assaulted by more then 1 unit. The way I read it, is you can choose which unit to over watch on, because strictly following the steps, you arnt locked in combat until the next subphase. Although I can see what others are getting at, we really need a clarification from GW exactly WHEN you are locked in combat. But as any edition there is always some rules that just kindda spit in your face

The real problem at hand is the nob dieing in challenges, if he's gonna get to swing a PK is better and more worth it 100% of the time! However the prblem other Ork Commanders are facing is thier nobs dieing before they get a nance to strike, now that being the case, which nob would you rather lose? One with a 5pt weapon? Or the one with a 25pt weapon? That's the only thing worth argueing when it comes to nobs in boyz squads

The Nob cannot avoid a challenge by being too far from combat. The rules state you must attempt to move your units character to the front in cc, as is his place leading the charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To adress the op.
If you run choppa boyz, do not take big shootas or rokkits. You will not be standing around shooting.

For shoota boyz (best option in 6th ed) big shootas are best for 2 reasons. 1 you get 3 shots per. 2 you are not usually attacking vehicles and won't need the str 8 rokkits.

If you need rokkits, use defkoptas with tl rokkits for a better chance to hit.

I love orks, 4000 points and counting

To the OP

The starter set prior to the current one featured orks. The orks from this old starter set were armed with slugga and choppa. You can still get them pretty cheap on the different auction sites around. I would say, for this reason, trick out your boyz with shootas, and buy slugga and choppa boyz off ebay (for reasonable price).

This edition really favors shooting. Even orks have to adapt or die. Ive been messing with Units of Boyz (30) Nob, Bosspole - thats it. The boyz are fearless down to 11 models then the nob lets then reroll. The nob even backs out of challenges Charge up, rapid fire. If they get charged, overwatch the unit. A situation needing the Nob with a PK doesnt come up enough to justify the points cost, I'd rather buy 4 more boyz. Leave the tanks for units that can kill tanks and troops for the boyz.

Rejn wrote:
The real problem at hand is the nob dieing in challenges, if he's gonna get to swing a PK is better and more worth it 100% of the time! However the prblem other Ork Commanders are facing is thier nobs dieing before they get a nance to strike, now that being the case, which nob would you rather lose? One with a 5pt weapon? Or the one with a 25pt weapon? That's the only thing worth argueing when it comes to nobs in boyz squads

Neither boyz nor foot Nobz are very survivable, but they do have two wounds and can take 'eavy armor. The PK gives you much needed raw power. If you're challenged by Skulltaker, Vargard Obyron, Lucius the Eternal, or anything else that'll kill your Nob for sure, you simply decline and lose Boyz, hopefully the Mob rule or the Bosspole will save you. If a bare sergeant challenges you, you accept and rip him to pieces. BTW, if you know you're going to lose your Nob, why take any upgrades? You're going to bring up the BC against vehicles again, I just know it-but isn't a PK much better against them? PK is what you want, and if you decide you have no points left after getting all your other favorite upgrades, it's time to consider BCs, not before.

The reason for PK over BC is the armor pen. Ap2 klaw opens up terminator armor nicely.

Hedkrakka wrote:BTW, if you know you're going to lose your Nob, why take any upgrades?

Actually, we were talking about this earlier and came to the conclusion "if you know you're going to lose your nob, why bother taking nobz?".

A nob isn't mandatory, and his bosspole doesn't work while the squad is fearless. Why bother with him at all, then, why not spend the points for some big shootas?

Im with Ailaros on that one. The changes to fearless made boyz better for sure, and far more annoying to other units. Where as before, we would lose combat by a bunch, and then take fearless wounds, further sticking it to us. Now, we lose, we laugh and stay stuck in. So the question becomes "If my nob is going to either ALWAYS die, or ALWAYS decline and be useless, why not take more boyz instead?" Thats what you need to ask.

Ive been running a stock Nob with just a Bigshoota for the random precision shooting. So far, Ive had a Bigshoota nob kill a couple PW sgts and a few flamers over my games in 6th. Sure, I usually miss, BUT thanks to Ork shooting with a nob, when you do hit, youve a 50% chance of getting to choose who takes the hit

I'm really getting tired of hearing the arguement over nobs being out of range for challenges. I'm not shoving for it down your thoats please stop bringing it up in topics! Untill it's been FAQed!

Back to the nob upgrades issue, i never have argued any point about a nob hitting a vehicle with a BC so I can't argue it again, nor will I. But I think nobz leading boyz is the one thing you either need to get and go all out on, or just simply leave at home, he's not really necessary.

When I get home I'm gonna run squads with various nob loadouts and personally see how it works out.

Rejn wrote:I'm really getting tired of hearing the arguement over nobs being out of range for challenges.

Well, it's a rather big deal, as it would be a loophole in the otherwise systematic attempt to get rid of hidden weapons in 40k.

KingCracker wrote:So far, Ive had a Bigshoota nob kill a couple PW sgts and a few flamers over my games in 6th.

lol.

Tac Marine 1: "Sarge, look out! They brought a Big Snipa!"

Tac Marine 2: "Here, hold my flamer real quick".

There is no debate in regards to the PK Nob and challenges. The rules are clear. I covered this when 6th came out here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600/456724.page#4506193

AresX8 wrote:Here's the breakdown of how he can't accept the challenge or be picked out by Precision Strikes:

1. "Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase, before any blows are struck." pg. 64. This means this is before the initiative step pile-in moves.

2. "A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:

- During its initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models.
- During its initiative step, it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat." pg 23.

3. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." pg. 64. This means your Nob can't issue a challenge either, because of clause 1.

4. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges." pg. 64. This means Nobs that are not engaged as per clause 2 cannot accept challenges. Cannot accept challenges != refusing challenges.

5. "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached.... Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons [Emphasis mine] can modify a model's Initiative." pg. 23. This means that a Nob piles in at I1 because of his PK and also attacks at I1 because of the PK.

6. "Wounds from Precision Strikes are allocated against an engaged model (or models) of your choice in the unit he is attacking, rather than following the normal rounds for Wound allocation." pg. 63. This means that a Nob cannot be picked out in combat because he is not engaged as per clause 2.

 Ailaros wrote:

Rejn wrote:I'm really getting tired of hearing the arguement over nobs being out of range for challenges.

Well, it's a rather big deal, as it would be a loophole in the otherwise systematic attempt to get rid of hidden weapons in 40k.

KingCracker wrote:So far, Ive had a Bigshoota nob kill a couple PW sgts and a few flamers over my games in 6th.

lol.

Tac Marine 1: "Sarge, look out! They brought a Big Snipa!"

Tac Marine 2: "Here, hold my flamer real quick".

Pretty much how it happens everytime too. Sure, it usually doesnt work out for me. Buuuuut, when that armor save is failed, that one Bigshoota has been paid for for a few times over. Not to mention its hilariously funny watching SM players react to such an awesome shot

Gotta love ork playmakers! Whenever somehing just beats the odds and 1 out of 3 bigshoota shots ends up getting through, it's a great thing!

 Ailaros wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:BTW, if you know you're going to lose your Nob, why take any upgrades?

Actually, we were talking about this earlier and came to the conclusion "if you know you're going to lose your nob, why bother taking nobz?".

A nob isn't mandatory, and his bosspole doesn't work while the squad is fearless. Why bother with him at all, then, why not spend the points for some big shootas?

You're fearless up till 10 orks. You don't want to toss away 10 orks, that's why you get a nob and a boss pole. To make sure they stay on an objective, to make sure that they stay in combat(because if they don't, at I2 they almost inevitably get run down). In addition, a nob adds a wound and an attack to the mob and raises their initiative for sweeps to 3. Even as few a five orks led by a nob can pose a danger to most troop choice and vehicles, having them run off the board would be a shame.
For just 15 points you get a lot of upgrades for your mob, which helps them survive especially at the end of the game - definitely worth it, no matter what you equip him with.

I'm still not sold on dropping the PK, but at the same time not sure about taking it, so I withhold my judgment here. Right now I feel better about having it, so I will. Most of my opponents have found challenge-baiting working against them, so they stopped doing that. Outside of powerblobs, challenge-baiting only guaranteed me being stuck in combat during their turn, which means not getting shot. I take 'eavy armor on all my squad-leading nobs though, so the chance of non-power weapons killing them are very slim.

Sure, they lose fearless at 10, but at 10 models, they have Ld10. That's still a phenominal leadership to take a test on. Then, once they get below 7 boyz, their leadership is still 7, which is still more likely to pass than it is to fail.

Plus, we're now talking about 6th ed rallying, which is much, much kinder on squads that are running away, especially, say, trukk mobz, which have to get down to basically completely dead before they have to take insane heroism checks.

Plus, by the time that you get down to tiny units where a bosspole could come in handy, the fact that you have to take a casualty in order to use it makes it that much more painful.

Not to say that the bosspole is necessarily a bad upgrade (because who doesn't like rerolls?), but I don't see why it's worth buying a nob for just to take it.

If you're already taking nobz, well, then, of course take a bosspole, but if taking a nob at all is in question, then the fact that a bosspole can be present doesnt' seem to add all that much to the argument to take a nob.

When losing combat, you are taking penalties to your leadership value. You also tend to not hit the magic 10, but rather nine or eight. If you do, the chance of your unit breaking is 17-28%, with a boss pole somewhere near 3-8% - which is a lot less.

Rallying isn't the problem. The problem is not breaking in the first place. If 9 orks start running, they might run out of cover/KFF range, into charge or flamer range, and tend to clump up for blasts or templates while doing so. That is, if they don't get sweeped at I2, which means picking up a unit which was still capable of doing serious damage, as well as hold or contest objectives.

Also keep in mind that units don't regroup automatically, they have to pass a test for that - which can also be rerolled using a boss pole. So rather than gambling on your boyz, you are pretty much guaranteed to keep them on the board, as long as they are above 25%.
I agree on the insane heroism thing though, unless we are talking about mobz of 30, regrouping is almost always possible. Still, for trukkboyz klaws don't suffer as much from challenges, and a single nob with a powerklaw and his buddy Tork are still a force to be reckoned with in late game. Not to mention that those 15 points will already turned into a good investment once you reroll once and save more than two boyz - or if the extra strength and attack on the nob kills a single enemy model.

Calling those units tiny is also funny. Many armies don't have units as big as those tiny ones when deploying

And hey, the boss pole is not an automatic casualty. You might make your armor save

Lol! Might make an armor save, come on now jidmah, counting on an ork boy armor save is like counting on the warphead to roll the right kinda of psychic attack!

I wasn't serious, obviously. But it does happen

Oh yes, this I know, I wasn't lol'ing at you, but with you. I thought it to be funny!

"GO GO TSHIRT SAVES!!!"
*Heard from KC's mouth on every bosspole save