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I know I can simply remove both railheads and add in my broadsides plus an ethereal if I'm really having tank troubles, but keeping the seeker missiles really helps snipe MEQ and deal with fliers.

As for the warfishes, I wanted a list that I could play quickly. The damage output of a warfish is strong and doesn't expose my tiny count of troop models to fire until the end.

Although not on topic, I don’t think the points are worth it for the full out warfish, and I find that the gun drones are worth it for there tactical use as screeners and denial units if it isn’t purge.

Back on topic, I think you can't really compare stealth suits 100% to terminators. Both are relatively hard to kill backfield threats via reserves/infiltrate, but the terminators are designed to move up and generally not give a gak and can also get into cc and tieing up units. stealth suits are designed for hit and run style of fighting moving in and out of cover at selective squishy targets and backsides of squads where the meaty HQ units hangout.

I think it is only 'wortwhile' running a ss blob if you have heavy markerlight support.

The main advantage of ss is their save, but this gets less useful/useable as the blob gets bigger.

So the only tangeable advantage of a big ss blob over equivalant points in fire warriors is that they can make better use of markelight support.

I am kind of saddened.

I have been using the stealth cloud since 5th edition. Granted, in 5th, it was a bit pointless, but fun to try out. In sixth though, this unit has been my MPV in nearly every game since. I am currently 9-1-2 with my tau list.

The cloud (6 stealth suits, 12 gun drones, no fusion) has been incredible for me, and against a lot of different lists. Deep striking, infiltrating inside ruins, or outflanking does not matter for they do well in all three. Just make sure that they are within an area that they can duck behind cover to at least get a 3+ cover save.

I agree with a prior post, they benefit from marker lights greatly, but they do not depend upon them. I have taken out multiple marine squads, and even tyranid MC's with the cloud with little effort.

Yes, the cloud is cost heavy at 300 points, but we are playing tau, what isn't cost heavy? Hell, my commander is by far the worst commander out of any army I know ('el, TLMP, Flamer), but it still costs me 72 points!

If you try a stealth cloud out, even just proxy them for a couple games, I am sure most of you will like them. They have been working very well for me, as well as the other local Tau players that have tried it after seeing what I can do with them.

Let me know if you have any questions on how I play them to make them effective.
Waffles

I've run stealth teams like that jazz. Though normally I have 2 marker drones and 10 gun drones.

What's probably more important is that your list works well with the unit, you can't just slap it in and hope it works well like most other codexes will allow you to do.

You're correct, it's an amazing unit, pricey but amazing. Then again, you're right again, this is the tau book we are talking about here.

Don't even get me started on the differences between a railhead and doomscythe...

To be honest it's the price tag that has me in the fence abou larger squads, bu they are effective if you target the proper things.

I have a lot of fun running two teams of three with a fusion blaster and target lock. They are weapons of opportunity, and are incredibly annoying. My opponents have to choose between shooting at this tiny squad of annoying guns with a 2+ save, or the rest of my army. Nid players have wasted time shooting at them rather than running forward to close with my army, and paid the price.
And say what you will, but I think any person with a land raider would be reluctant to drive straight toward a meltagun without taking measures to prevent an explosion.

I see them as a suicide/sacrificial squad that just doesn't die.

I cant agree on using FB or any speciallest weapons on SS as there BS3 is a liablity. 50% chance is not worth the risk of having them get into 12> range, by having them in 16-18 inch range it makes it harder for them to get assaulted as well as the enemy has to roll at least 10+ to reach you and you only have to get a 6 on your assault jump. that should also put you out of rapid fire range of most weapons.

 BoomWolf wrote:
You confuse me peregrine, after spending much time saying a burst cannon for 30 points is bad copared to firewarrior pulse rifle and yet you say a storm bolter is "good shooting" for 40 points, while bolters can be orbtained as low as 7 points?

Except there's one key difference: the stealth suit's shooting is its only function, while the terminators score, assault, and shoot things with their cyclone missiles. On top of that storm bolters are nice to have since they ensure that the unit isn't totally wasted on the turns when it isn't doing something better.

(and scoring too, kroot are so OP!), and "until they get into assualt and wipe out a squad" dont freaking happen, EVER, because they are too slow to catch up with any squad who is not going to their direction, and with I1 power fists, odds are that whatever is going at them will kill most or not all of the termies before they even get to swing.

Yeah, just keep believing that terminators are bad in assault because of I1...

Why? because THEY CANT BE KILLED. they provide a small, yet reliable threat that forces your opponent to respond to it or take unanswered casualties of the marine's choice, the stealth suits do THE SAME THING, you have to respond to this hard-to-kill unit, or accept them killing your backfield. they go a bit differently about it, but serves the same overall pourpose-force the enemie's hand and supply a reliable sorce of fire.

And once again you completely ignore the key difference: terminators are too powerful to ignore. You have to waste shots on that 2+ save because they're a powerful threat that can rip apart entire units if you don't answer it. Stealth suits, on the other hand, are weaker than every other unit in the Tau army so you save them for last and that 2+ save doesn't help when you've already lost the game.

Lack of firepower-who cares? its CONSTANT firepower, compared to firewarriors who will likely die within 2 turns of shooting, at the end result you will usually land more hits per points.

And now consider the hidden cost of that "constant" firepower. You only have constant firepower because your opponent is busy killing your better units, which means you're effectively using broadsides and fire warriors as "shield drones" for your stealth suits. Does this really sound like a good plan?

Requries drones to work-who care? you take the drones anyway, so what difference does it make suits without drones are ineffective? (its like saying sterngard without upgraded weapons are bad, but you are taking themanyway, so who cares about what the situation without them is?)

Congratulations on missing the point. I'm not saying that drones are a problem, I'm saying that it's ridiculous to compare a dronespam setup to a non-dronespam setup in terms of durability and expendable wounds. The only thing that comparison "proves" is that drones are good as meatshields no matter what unit they're on, not that stealth suits are good.

============================================

Pottsey wrote:
Can fire warriors shoot and destroy land landers or Dreadnoughts on front armour? Can firewarriors instant kill 2+ save, toughness 4, muti wound models? I fail to see how firewarrior out shoot Stealth teams all the time. Can firewarriors on turn 2 deal with that ordnance weapon hiding out of broadside LOS in the enemy deployment zone?

So now we're going to stop talking about all BC/gun drone stealth suits and now use them as suicide melta?

Also, who cares if they have a melta gun. Crisis suits do the suicide melta job better.

You keep saying the enemy will ignore Stealth teams and they only have stg5. Well surly a Stealth teams with Fusion and burst can threaten anything. Blow up tanks, instant death muti wound models, hit hoards hard. You seem to be ignoring all the advantages of Stealth teams.

I'm not the one saying you shouldn't put fusion on them.

Depends on the target as Fusion with 2+ on the damage chart can be nasty and it bypass’s armor 2. Due to pre measuring the Stealth team could kill 2 or 3 Terminators a turn then jump back out of assault range. You might even be able to jump out of LOS then the Terminators cannot charge or shoot.

So what? A unit of fire warriors can spam STR 5 more efficiently while scoring an objective, and crisis suits do the melta job better.

Stealth suit can blow up anything a broadside can and often Stealth suits find it easier to blow up targets then broadsides as the Stealth suits are more mobile and at close range a higher chance to pen armor. Just last game I blow up an armor 13 Dreadnought in the enemy’s deployment zone on turn 2 with fusion while the Broadsides had no line of fire but the fusion weapons could be moved to engage.

IOW you spent a bunch of points on a suicide unit to deal with a target that wasn't a threat. If the dread didn't have LOS to your big guns you could have just ignored it and used the points you spent on stealth suits to bring better units and kill the rest of his army.

What about the deadly combo of Shas'El or Shas'O in a Stealth team? You can have a 2+armor, 2+ cover save drones to absorb hits with a 2+armor battlesuit with FNP although I prefer the 3+armor option to be more mobile.

Do the words "stupid waste of points" mean anything to you? Why are you spending so much effort on keeping some burst cannons alive when you could put that tank character in a broadside squad and keep an important unit alive?

 Peregrine wrote:
You confuse me peregrine, after spending much time saying a burst cannon for 30 points is bad copared to firewarrior pulse rifle and yet you say a storm bolter is "good shooting" for 40 points, while bolters can be orbtained as low as 7 points?

It is not a stupid waste of points just because you misunderstand the point of the squad or how well it works. The commander and drones are not points to keep the burst cannons alive. The idea is the commander and drones are a real pain to kill and you end up with a squad that is a massive threat. Drop the commander ordnance barrage weapon on an enemy and/or with 5 shots from the secondary ion blaster weapon. Then have the stealth Burst go next and lastly fusion. You can easily wipe out entire squads and if you stick fusion on the commander that’s 3 fusion weapons with the Ion blaster that’s a maximum of 8, AP1 shots although on average less. But still the shear amount of wounds hurts anything. It doesn’t matter if you are hitting hoard squads, tanks or single MC’s all take a lot of hurt. Even terminators can struggle against this squad.

This squad is not something the enemy can easily ignore or shoot to death and due to pre measuring not assault easily. AP 1 and 2 weapons tend to fail due to no ignore cover so I still end up with a nice save. Ignore cover weapons fail as the AP is normally not enough to get past the basic armor. On top of that you have 2 or 4 drones to absorb hits ( I do not like large drone blobs). This leads to a very tough mobile unit that kicks out a lot of deadly firepower. I have killed entire bike squads, large horde squads, MC’s, dreads and all sorts and survived after.

Why would I want to put my commander with broadsides? Broadsides already survive well enough and commander weapons are to short range to fire with broadsides. The last game I had no enemy even managed to get into range to fire at my broadsides. I prefer to stick 18” weapons on my commander and have him on the front lines not hiding in my deployment zone with broadsides doing nothing as everything’s out of Los or range. Sometimes I take zero broadsides like I plan for next game. Mobile is better then static.

“IOW you spent a bunch of points on a suicide unit to deal with a target that wasn't a threat. If the dread didn't have LOS to your big guns you could have just ignored it and used the points you spent on stealth suits to bring better units and kill the rest of his army.”

Please stop calling it a suicide unit. My unit that killed the dread survived to the end of game and contested the enemies objective in there deployment zone. The enemy had to retreat units that advanced forward to come deal with me. The unit is do deadly it cannot be ignored.

Yes the dread was not a threat but it would have been. Why wait till it gets close and becomes a threat? Tau cannot wait till everything becomes a threat and gets close as by then there is to much to kill in one go. What unit would have been better to kill the rest of the army? The answer is nothing that I can think off, as nothing else would have had Los or range at that point in the game.

A lot of the people I play against use a lot of artillery hidden out of LoS. Stealth Teams I have found are the best way to deal with this. When a suicide battle suit kills the target and dies the Stealth team survive and keep causing problems.

“Also, who cares if they have a melta gun. Crisis suits do the suicide melta job better.”

For the reasons pointed out before about AP3 instant death wounds Crsis teams are far worse. There are many cases where the Crisis suits comment suicide like you say but the stealth team survive to keep killing. I find Stealth teams can start killing long before Crisis suits can get into firing range and LoS. I do not use Stealth teams as suicide units.

“So what? A unit of fire warriors can spam STR 5 more efficiently while scoring an objective, and crisis suits do the melta job better.”

That is just not true. The fire warriors have to spend ages getting into firing range and die so fast there firepower can turn useless. While the Stealth team can start causing problems for the enemy long before fire warriors can even fire and the Stealth team can take a few good hits that wipe out fire warriors squads. One barrage and the fire warriors are now useless. One barrage on a Stealth team and you take little damage. Anyway scouring units do not matter if you wipe out the enemy on the objective with stealth. If the enemy ignores the Stealth like you say he will end up losing objectives in his deployment zone. If he deals with the Stealth you have time to capture the middle board objectives.

Many of my opponents take lots of artillery. How do crisis do melta better? As far as I can see they are far worse and tend to die more. Even orks can 1 shot instant death a crisis suit while a Stealth team can take that kind of hit. AP3 stg8 missiles are deadly for Crisis but stealth teams can survive that type of hit.

I love it how peregrine assumes that "they dont die because the enemy is busy shooting at other units" when we prove him time after time that they dont die because nothing can effectivly kill it even when targeted, they live alot, and they kill ALOT.

When you compare a FW 120 points to a stealth team 120 points (just 3 suits and 6 drones, far from optimal) then you compare it as they are both getting shot and shoot back at the same thing, the stealth team will out-preform almost every time (with the exeption being SnP units with 24' range, everything else goes in favor of stealths.) not as "what the enemy unit can do meantime", because if you only present them hard-to-kill targets, they will be force to target them.

As for "just proving the gun drone are good", that's the whole POINT, the gun drones are a good meatshield, and tehy before a redicilus unit when teamed with the stealth suits because the suits can share the SFG with them. you DONT seperate suits from drones when you calculate the team, the suits and drones effect each other alot.
And you dont pay 20 points to give a burst cannon 2 more wounds, you are paying 20 points for two pimped gun drones, a unit that is good enough to be taken unpimped on close-fire crisis teams.

And no, I dont assume terminators are bad at assualt becase of I1, I assume they are bad at assualt because they are freakin SLOW. you can be an WS10 S10 I10 A10, its worthless if you cant even REACH melee.

Also, are terminators scoring? thats news to me, funny you claim one of the perks of terminators is something requiring another unit to do so, then seperate suits and drones as if they dont effect each other.


In any case, I have long learned that you cannot be reasoned with by logic, numbers or even examples, and as you outright refuse to even try anything that is not your "tried and tested" methods you can never see how these units preform on the actual table.
Number crunching is nice and all, but it just dont give you the full picture.
My only hope is that one day you will get tabled so hard by someone playing all the units you consider "Bad, never take them, they are not the right way to play" that your eyes will be forced to open that there is too much in the game for it to have one proper path due to how the meta works, and how the actual battlefield alters the rules.

Well this is getting ugly should be toned down asap.

Since the comparison keeps coming up Ill give my input I guess.

SS and Term against MEQ

Take a full sized squad of SS with a drone cloud is 300 points is 2.8 unsaved wounds + pinning (lol)

A full sized squad of Term with 2 cyclone is 460 points 3.99 unsaved wounds
Point for point that is
SS 1 kill per 107
Term 1 kill per 115

Though not my personal choice full ss squad with 2 FB and TA is 246 points is 2.88 unsaved wounds but it also puts you have 12-18 range average which gives possibility for counter assault.

So it is technically cheaper but generally there kill potential is the same.
Both have generally the same kill range (24 vs 18+6-7 JSJ though it is at the whim of the dice gods)

Durability:
Terms have a constant 2+, 5++ stock
SS have a 3+ 4+ cover save in open terrain, but this is more subjective as you should have them generally in or behind cover. Giving them essentially a 2+ cover at all time. (This one is all on good play and positioning)

Subjective or not, SS have a better time taking ap 1-2 though have there counters vs anti coversaves and close combat.

Using another purchased character that makes term scoring. I can’t judge as I don’t actually know what does that or what codex it is in but you have to take that into account points wise which would make more expensive to field.

Ultimately these 2 units are similar and points wise are generally the same but they are meant to be played differently.
Terms are meant quagmire an area or unit forcing an opponent to deal with it or lock them in combat for long periods of time as 2+ armor got better in 6th

SS on the other hand are meant to harass and pull fire away from your main troops while sneaking in and out of terrain while positioning for points contesting in the final turns.
They do not do CC and I certainly would never use them as a suicide unit and whoever thinks that is how they are used, please explain how to use them that way as it baffles me.

Pottsey wrote:
The idea is the commander and drones are a real pain to kill and you end up with a squad that is a massive threat.

It's also expensive, and doesn't do very much for those points. Learn a lesson from IG: you don't win games with expensive fancy tricks, you win games by bringing tons of efficient firepower and wiping your opponent off the table.

This squad is not something the enemy can easily ignore or shoot to death and due to pre measuring not assault easily.

This difficulty in assaulting assumes you have an infinite table. On a real table with terrain and edges and friendly units you'll quickly find yourself backed into a corner and surrounded with nowhere to go.

Why would I want to put my commander with broadsides?

Because a good opponent will shoot your broadsides immediately (and if they didn't bring vehicles they're shooting your crisis suits, and that's where your commander belongs), and your tank commander is going to do a lot more good by soaking up wounds that would otherwise be killing broadsides than by acting as a shield drone for a few burst cannons.

Please stop calling it a suicide unit.

Melta = suicide. You have 6" range, and can only back away 2D6". Assault range is 6+2D6", so even a basic tactical squad has a 50/50 chance of assaulting you and wiping out the unit the turn after you fire the melta. If they've deployed a screening unit between your stealth suits and the tank that chance gets even higher.

Yes the dread was not a threat but it would have been. Why wait till it gets close and becomes a threat?

Because you have other targets that ARE in range and shooting/assaulting you. You seem to miss this point, sometimes it's better to just ignore a unit that isn't currently much of a threat and focus everything on wiping out something that is.

When a suicide battle suit kills the target and dies the Stealth team survive and keep causing problems.

One key difference here: the suicide crisis suit is more likely to get the job done, since it has TL melta (and potentially TL BS 4) and can take a melta gun on every model, not just one per three models. If artillery is such a big threat you want it dead immediately, and that means deep striking suicide crisis suits.

That is just not true. The fire warriors have to spend ages getting into firing range and die so fast there firepower can turn useless.

Err, no. I don't know what version of 40k you're playing, but in standard 40k 30" range covers a huge area of the table, and most players have a default anti-Tau plan of "get close ASAP and assault" so fire warriors are going to start the game in range and stay in range all game.

===================================

 BoomWolf wrote:
I love it how peregrine assumes that "they dont die because the enemy is busy shooting at other units" when we prove him time after time that they dont die because nothing can effectivly kill it even when targeted, they live alot, and they kill ALOT.

I assume that because good players don't shoot at stealth suits. Against Tau you have very simple target priority:

1) Vulnerable mass markerlight carriers (Tetras or pathfinders). If you have them in an exposed position, wipe them off the table.

2) Broadsides, the main anti-tank threat and potential MEQ killers with plasma. Or, if you have no tanks, crisis suits.

3) Crisis suits, the main shooting threat against everything else.

4) Fire warriors. Scoring units and good volume of fire.

5) Anything else.

It doesn't matter whether or not something can effectively kill your unit if the unit is so far down the target priority list that it doesn't get attacked until you've lost the game.

And no, I dont assume terminators are bad at assualt becase of I1, I assume they are bad at assualt because they are freakin SLOW. you can be an WS10 S10 I10 A10, its worthless if you cant even REACH melee.

And again, I will ask what 40k you're playing in which nobody uses movement tactics to cut off your retreat options and force you into combat. If you ignore terminators you will lose units. If you ignore stealth suits you will take less damage than any other unit in the Tau army can do. See the difference?

Also, are terminators scoring? thats news to me, funny you claim one of the perks of terminators is something requiring another unit to do so, then seperate suits and drones as if they dont effect each other.

Terminators are scoring because Belial is dirt cheap and the only reason not to take allied deathwing terminators over your own terminators is if you're playing a terminators-as-troops character already. If terminators are on the table you can almost guarantee that they're scoring.

So now you are not using terminators, but the deathwings that only bark angels can take, plus a dedicated HQ to make them work.
Not that I claim it is not efficiant, but thats not really your standard terminator unit, you might as well used GK terminators for your comparisons.

And funny you say my oppoenets are bad for not using movement tactics to block my paths then outright ignore the possibility I would do the same to make my own "high prioroty targets" pretty much untouchable until the suits are dealt with-JSJ makes it super easy.

I like running 4 Tau Stealth squads to bolster my fire warriors. I don't like Kroot, so the additional deployment options on the stealths are great. I find them to be perfect harrassment and flanking units. Sure, you can't run them down the middle of the board and expect them to survive, but you can't do that with any Tau unit They have enough firepower to whittle down enemy units, enough maneuverability to go for units that your opponent thought were safe, or to join in on an alpha strike with the rest of your army on a specific target. You're also ususally threatening enemy vehicle side or rear armour limiting their options.

4 suits also have a nice balance of cheapness versus effectiveness. They are rather less effective against Marines than any other opponent, but a lot of my opponents play armies other than marines.

 Peregrine wrote:

It's also expensive, and doesn't do very much for those points. Learn a lesson from IG: you don't win games with expensive fancy tricks, you win games by bringing tons of efficient firepower and wiping your opponent off the table

So you agree Stealth teams are great as they bring tons of efficient firepower wiping your opponent off the table long before crisis or broadside get to fire. Points to firepower wise Stealth teams are very efficient. Time to kill Stealth teams come out better then Broadsides or crisis or for killing important units Stealth teams win out killing the major target sooner than Broadsides or crisis as the Stealth teams can infiltrate to pick out key targets that Broadsides or crisis cannot hit.

As for not do very much for those points? That’s just so wrong I do not know where to start. Going by my win rate against experienced players I have to say you are wrong in saying it does not work.

“This difficulty in assaulting assumes you have an infinite table. On a real table with terrain and edges and friendly units you'll quickly find yourself backed into a corner and surrounded with nowhere to go.”

Never had that problem as very few infantry can move as fast as Suit teams and you shoot the ones that can. Most infantry move 6” a turn while Stealth Teams move between 8” and 18” (not including running for either).That and if you jump out of LOS it does not matter how near you are as the enemy cannot assault.

“Because a good opponent will shoot your broadsides immediately (and if they didn't bring vehicles they're shooting your crisis suits, and that's where your commander belongs), and your tank commander is going to do a lot more good by soaking up wounds that would otherwise be killing broadsides than by acting as a shield drone for a few burst cannons.”

Well you see due to the stealth units a good commander cannot shoot my broadsides immediately as that unit was killed by the stealth team on turn 1 or 2. That assumes I even took broadsides which I do not always as they are not very efficient firepower wise.

A for where my commander belongs you are flat out wrong as it works well. Your way is not the only way and my commander is not a tank commander he is a killing commander. He gets the tank from the Stealth field which allows him to kill for longer and take hits that instant kill crisis teams. You are still not getting it, for the last time the commander and drones are not acting like shields for a few burst cannons. That is not the role. The role is massive short range firepower dealing over 20wounds from one squad with tons of AP1 hits while using stealth to stay alive. A crisis suits team fails at this role as it gets instant killed to easily and cannot dish out more wounds.

“Melta = suicide. You have 6" range, and can only back away 2D6". Assault range is 6+2D6", so even a basic tactical squad has a 50/50 chance of assaulting you and wiping out the unit the turn after you fire the melta. If they've deployed a screening unit between your stealth suits and the tank that chance gets even higher.”

12” range so a basic tactical squad has far worse then 50/50 chance sometime as low as 0% chance. I pre measure to jump 11” away fire everything then if the unit somehow survives I jump back. When possible jump out of LoS. As for suicide I used melta last game killed threating targets on turn 2 and survived till the end of the game and took an objective away from enemy in there deployment zone. Crisis, Fire warriors or broadsides could never have done that much damage by turn 2 and stayed alive.

“Because you have other targets that ARE in range and shooting/assaulting you. You seem to miss this point, sometimes it's better to just ignore a unit that isn't currently much of a threat and focus everything on wiping out something that is.”

No I am not missing the point but you are. On turn 1 and 2 there is no other units that are more of a threat. The units that are a threat the Stealth team can deal with before the crisis or fire warriors can even get into firing rage. By the time the crisis or fire warriors could deal with the first threat the Stealth team have already moved on to dealing with the 3rd threat.

Almost nothing will be shooting/assaulting me on turn 1 and 2. Stealth teams allow me to remove the threats faster and sooner than Crisis or broadsides can start dealing with the threat.

“If artillery is such a big threat you want it dead immediately, and that means deep striking suicide crisis suits.”

How is crisis turning up randomly on an unknown turn and then possibly scattering better than Infiltrating Stealth teams taking out the target before the Crisis even arrive? How is the Crisis better when it takes out the target then dies to stg 8 ap3 instant death while the Stealth team survives?

“Err, no. I don't know what version of 40k you're playing, but in standard 40k 30" range covers a huge area of the table, and most players have a default anti-Tau plan of "get close ASAP and assault" so fire warriors are going to start the game in range and stay in range all game.”

I play a normal 72” long table split into 6 sections with D3 random buildings/woods/ wall’s/bunkers per section. Just like the rulebook says. Between buildings blocking LoS and the range of fire warriors it was turn 3 or 4 before fire warriors managed to shoot at anything my last game. We played short edge to short edge with around 14 bits of decent sized scenery on the table. We count 1 ruin or 4 or 5 small walls as 1 bit of scenery for example.

“It doesn't matter whether or not something can effectively kill your unit if the unit is so far down the target priority list that it doesn't get attacked until you've lost the game.”

That is totally stupid. If someone makes a massive mistake and puts the stealth team so far down the target priority list they do not shoot it they have pretty much lost the game.



.

“If you ignore terminators you will lose units. If you ignore stealth suits you will take less damage than any other unit in the Tau army can do. See the difference?”

Now you are having a laugh. Surly no one can seriously say that? I have seen stealth teams kill more and faster than terminators.

The simple fact is many people on here are saying Stealth teams used by experienced players against experienced players works well. It’s fair enough if you do not like using them but they work great.

I think the issue is with peregrine completely forgets that things are not in a vaccum and every small element, even a tiny fence, changes the "how much kills/how much dies" equasions radically.

The issue is rather that you guys are trying to convince a lobotomized eagle of something. I stopped trying long ago, since I already presented what was needed.

How about stop comparing ss to terminators, or anything else outside the tau dex and instead discuss the best way to field and use them.

I like mine at low points where its points and not fo slots that are the limiting factor. Once i can afford to get crisis in each slot i struggle to take stealth suits instead.

Take Stealth suit for fun but don't expect them to out perform other viable options just yet. As of right now they're hard to kill but easy to ignore. So if you have the extra slot I would go 3 suits (sneaky points grabber) or 6 suits 12 drones (light infantry eraser) the later you have to be careful to overwhelm targets as to not get assaulted after shooting.

But don't lose hope just yet. The new codex will most likely address either the range of the weapons or number of shots of the pulse carbine and/or bust cannon

 MechaBeast wrote:
Take Stealth suit for fun but don't expect them to out perform other viable options just yet. As of right now they're hard to kill but easy to ignore. So if you have the extra slot I would go 3 suits (sneaky points grabber) or 6 suits 12 drones (light infantry eraser) the later you have to be careful to overwhelm targets as to not get assaulted after shooting.

But don't lose hope just yet. The new codex will most likely address either the range of the weapons or number of shots of the pulse carbine and/or bust cannon

I will personally disagree with that. I have played several games with a full dakka cloud (18 burst, 12 GD) in a 1000, 1850, and 2000 point tournies and all have done well. I pulled best overall in the 1850 and 2k toruney, and best general/best overal in the 1k games.

}I will say again: the stealth cloud has been my mpv Nearly every game. They hit very hard and take out anything.

To the people who say that they are pointless for the enemy to ignore them: SWEET!!

If they are ignored, then you can possition them to do A LOT of damage. If your enemy wnats them dead, it takes a lot of heat off of the rest of your tau because it takes A LOT of fire power to take them out.

You can number crunch all day long. You will find good things and bad thingvs for the stealth suits number wise.
Just remember though: you play Tau.... you number crunch this army overall to nearly any other army (especially thye codexes over the last two years) and the tau will look bad nearly every time. As a Tau player, we make this army work. We make the old codex work, and for some of us, really devistating to other players. Instead of argueing, just proxy them in and try them out. I think a lot of neigh sayers will be pleasently surprised by a cloud after the 3rd or 4th game.

GO STEALTH SUIT TEAMS!

Peeps talk alot of good stuff in here! I believe Iv'e learned a thing or two as well! Except for some pile of photons on the screen named after a species of falcon. He writes bad. Me no likey him so much

Any who! So an incredibly entertaining thing to do with your XV 25 team! Here's the base build, upgrade from here:

1x XV-8....Shas'el ........................(Cyclic Ion Blaster, Fusion blaster, Targeting Array)
1x XV-25 Shas'ui Team leader (Fusion blaster)
2x XV-25 Shas'ui .........................(Burst cannon)

So like somebody said earlier, this is the basic, right? Why? Because your XV-8 Crisis leader just got for free: Infiltrate, Stealth, and Shrouded....LOL-d-LOL! I is all up in your Deployment Zone! Killing your dudes!

You can use pretty much anything except Vespids, Aun'Va and Gun Drone Squads and have some success.

The Difference between The XV25s and The XV8s is You build your army to support the Stealth Suits, But you build your Crisis Suits to support your army.


However, The XV25 are pretteh hawt under 1k.

I'd rather have a 2 man team of crisis suits with fusion and flamer, and with the points saved pick up EMP on all my fire warriors.
Seriously, nobody expects firewarriors to assault land raiders/monoliths. People get careless as they flat out towards you thinking that firewarriors are hopeless in combat.

-Matt

KnuckleWolf wrote:

So like somebody said earlier, this is the basic, right? Why? Because your XV-8 Crisis leader just got for free: Infiltrate, Stealth, and Shrouded....LOL-d-LOL! I is all up in your Deployment Zone! Killing your dudes!

Unfortunately that is not allowed. IC without infiltrate may not join a squad with infiltrate dueing deployment. But he can join on turn 1 during the movement phase or deep strike with them. (edit it might have been outflank, IC without Outflank cannot join Outflanks squads sorry not got time to check rulebook but one of the two was a problem)

First of all, let's ask a very simple question:

Your opponent, among other things, is facing two units of equal point cost:

The first unit is a unit of stealth suits. They are in cover and have a 2+ save.

The second unit is a unit of fire warriors. They have more firepower, far less durability, and can score objectives.

WHY WOULD YOU SHOOT THE STEALTH SUITS?

Pottsey wrote:
So you agree Stealth teams are great as they bring tons of efficient firepower wiping your opponent off the table long before crisis or broadside get to fire.

How exactly is a unit with nothing but pulse shots wiping your opponent off the table before turn 1? Because that's when crisis suits and broadsides get to fire.

Stealth teams win out killing the major target sooner than Broadsides or crisis as the Stealth teams can infiltrate to pick out key targets that Broadsides or crisis cannot hit.

Are you playing a 500 point game on a 10'x10' table? Because a standard 1000-2000 point game on a 6'x4' table rarely leaves room to deploy outside 18" and still be in a useful position, especially if your opponent is smart and deploys a blocking unit to deny an 18" radius on their vulnerable flank in response to seeing your infiltrators. What infiltrate really means is that you get to start in the middle of the table, which just puts you closer to the front of your opponent's army and a faster death in the assault phase.

Never had that problem as very few infantry can move as fast as Suit teams and you shoot the ones that can. Most infantry move 6” a turn while Stealth Teams move between 8” and 18” (not including running for either).That and if you jump out of LOS it does not matter how near you are as the enemy cannot assault.

Remember the part where we're playing on a 6'x4' table, not an infinite table? You can move away, but only until you hit the table edge and/or your own units. With those very finite borders in place movement distance isn't enough, eventually you get boxed in with nowhere to go.

12” range so a basic tactical squad has far worse then 50/50 chance sometime as low as 0% chance.

No. Melta is only worth it within 6" so you get the bonus die on the penetration roll. You take a 6-12" shot if it's all you have, but deliberately planning to stay outside 6" with melta is just missing the point.

Almost nothing will be shooting/assaulting me on turn 1 and 2.

Stop playing against bad opponents? A player with a decent list will start shooting you on turn 1 (and a shooting army will start shooting you with everything on turn 1), and an assault army will assault you on turn 2. If your opponents are doing nothing on the first two turns of the game they just suck at 40k.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
You can use pretty much anything except Vespids, Aun'Va and Gun Drone Squads and have some success.

Only if "some success" is defined by beating bad lists and/or bad players.

It's kind of amusing, Tau players seem to be worse than any other army about assuming that every unit in their codex must magically have some kind of purpose, and refusing to admit that units are just garbage. I wonder why that is, could it be an overreaction to dealing with people who assume the entire codex sucks?

Hey Peregrine, I have a question: Why do many people on this forum think that someone using something they have not had luck using is automatically flawed and the only way someone else has had success is that they play other bad players?

Trying to figure out how I won 3 tourneys in 6th edition alone with a stealth cloud. I am honestly confused. I am a bad Tau player, and i guess Warhammer in general, because I have even considered using XV-15's.....

Ohh yea, its because the opponents playing in a GT qualifier, and pay-to-play tourneys all were bad players... sorry forgot.....

jazzpaintball wrote:
Hey Peregrine, I have a question: Why do many people on this forum think that someone using something they have not had luck using is automatically flawed and the only way someone else has had success is that they play other bad players?

Because the reasons for why the unit is "good" are ridiculous, so the conclusion is that the success must have more to do with luck or poor opponent skill.

Trying to figure out how I won 3 tourneys in 6th edition alone with a stealth cloud. I am honestly confused. I am a bad Tau player, and i guess Warhammer in general, because I have even considered using XV-15's.....

What lists did you play against? Top-tier tournament lists (flyerspam, demons, etc), or whatever the people at your local store happened to have?

Ohh yea, its because the opponents playing in a GT qualifier, and pay-to-play tourneys all were bad players... sorry forgot.....

Why does "playing in a tournament" automatically make someone a good player? You do realize that many people pay to enter tournaments just to guarantee a day spent playing 40k, not because they're good and expect to win, right?

Because the reasons for why the unit is "good" are ridiculous, so the conclusion is that the success must have more to do with luck or poor opponent skill.

The reason why it is good is because it is consistent. Just like firewarriors. FW's can consistantly put down many S5 shots and do well because of it. The cloud does the same thing. It comes in via deepstrike or outflank and takes out a backfield unit. Whether that be biovores, devistator squads, etc. With 30 S5 shots (12 twin linked), it takes out those pesky back field squads your FW's can not touch very well and that your broadsides/crisis suits have trouble getting enough shots through the cover saves. If you are able to get in a couple markerlights, it is truly devistating.

I know the stealth cloud is "good" for it has done well over and over again, but against 'bad players".....

What lists did you play against? Top-tier tournament lists (flyerspam, demons, etc), or whatever the people at your local store happened to have?

I have gone against tervigon lists, IG flyer spam lists, daemon flamer spam lists, nurgle-biker lists, MechDar lists, Necron flyer/Necron shenanigan's lists, long-fang spam lists, drop-pod lists, and others I would not necessarily consider tourney-worthy.

I know the good players/lists from the others. Good players/lists still have game winning decissions being made in turn 3 or 4. Non good lists/players I table by turn 4/5. Personally I do not like playing against those lists/players for I do not get to learn more about my ever-developing list nor do I ever like winning by tabling an opponent. I will more readily do it in a tourney, but I really like to have a challenge and enjoy playing with someone, not dominating someone.

Why does "playing in a tournament" automatically make someone a good player? You do realize that many people pay to enter tournaments just to guarantee a day spent playing 40k, not because they're good and expect to win, right?

No, tourneys do not only draw good players. But even you have to admit that you are MUCH more likely to play better players/lists at a tourney than just a random game at your FLGS.

 Peregrine wrote:
“First of all, let's ask a very simple question:

Your opponent, among other things, is facing two units of equal point cost:

The first unit is a unit of stealth suits. They are in cover and have a 2+ save.

The second unit is a unit of fire warriors. They have more firepower, far less durability, and can score objectives.

WHY WOULD YOU SHOOT THE STEALTH SUITS?”

Well it depends what unit the opponent has as we have been trying to explain to you it depends on the situation. Let’s say the opponent unit was like my 2+ save, toughness 4 commander or an armor 12 Dreadnought. The fire warriors would just ping of the Dreadnought armor and do little against the 2+ save and FNP commander. On the other hand the stealth suits are deadly towards the Dreadnought or if it was against the toughness 4 commander bypass the 2+ save armor, bypass FNP and instant death the muti wound commander. You would have to be stupid to shoot the fire warriors first. You hit the unit that is more deadly which in this case is the Stealth team. Once the Stealth team is dead the fire warriors are useless and the area is contested. But if you hit the fire warriors first you leave the stealth team to wipe you out.

There are times when the firewarrios would be targeted first but often the stealth suits are more deadly. Stealth can ignore AP2 armor, they can instant death muti wound models they can threaten armour 12+ and they can ignore FNP sometimes. Along with all that they are more mobile so more likely to move into a threating area and destroy more important objects the fire warriors can struggle to get to. Lastly Stealth are less likely to get boxed in or assaulted as they are more mobile.

Let me ask you a simple question turn 1 and 2 fire warriors are in your deployment zone with nothing in range or LoS, stealth have infiltrated to hit key threating enemy targets. Which is going to start killing enemy units first and which is going be more useful? ( I am not saying Stealth are always better then fire warriors I am just trying to explain how often Stealth can be more useful, it all depends on the battleground and situation.)

“How exactly is a unit with nothing but pulse shots wiping your opponent off the table before turn 1? Because that's when crisis suits and broadsides get to fire.”

I do not know what empty tables you play on but we have lots of scenery. Between range and Los crisis rarely get to fire on turn 1 for us. It sounds like you do not setup tables with much on them. We use the Citadel Realm of Battle Gameboard and our tables often look like this (our table is more like the back half with ruins) http://www.villagegames.net/blog/uploads/Necro1.jpg only with the Citadel Realm game broad under the buildings http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Warhammer_40,000_Terrain/REALM-OF-BATTLE-IMPERIAL-STRONGPOINT.html As per the rulebook we use a lot of random objects on the table.

“You can move away, but only until you hit the table edge and/or your own units. With those very finite borders in place movement distance isn't enough, eventually you get boxed in with nowhere to go.”

Never had that problem and my units out move most enemy unit’s in fact last game I did a pincer movement and won. I have made mistakes and got into assault range but I do not recall getting boxed in, if anything I box the enemy in as I move faster than them.

“It's kind of amusing, Tau players seem to be worse than any other army about assuming that every unit in their codex must magically have some kind of purpose, and refusing to admit that units are just garbage. I wonder why that is, could it be an overreaction to dealing with people who assume the entire codex sucks”

Its more Stealth do have a useful purpose but you seem blinded to it for some reason. The other units you said are better at the purpose like Crisis have been proven to be much worse and less effective for that purpose.

It comes down to when I take Stealth I tend to win, when I ignore stealth I tend to lose against good opponents. Broadside’s and crisis are not always a good idea as they are too fragile and broadside are too static.

Also if Stealth teams as so bad why is it the Tau army’s with them place well at tournaments or win with Stealth teams? I have read about lots of Stealth Tau army that came 1st and 2nd.in large tournaments. While the Tau armys without Stealth place much worse.

“No. Melta is only worth it within 6" so you get the bonus die on the penetration roll. You take a 6-12" shot if it's all you have, but deliberately planning to stay outside 6" with melta is just missing the point.”

We were talking about hitting tactical squads and 50% chance of tactical squads assaulting stealth. 6” has zero benefit so why would a Stealth team move within 6” of a Tactical squad? Unless of course there are few left and you plan to assault. But on the whole getting within 6” is a stupid tactical move in that situation. As for vehicles (dreads) well if you blow it up it is not going to be assaulting you so 6” does not matter and a Fire warrior squad would be useless in that situation at shooting.

As for telling me my opponents are bad you can say that as much as long like but it does not make it true. Just because a tactic you do not like works it does not mean it is a bad opponent.
.
I am not arguing any more if you don’t like Stealth that’s fine but I do like them and have none of the made up problems you describe have been problems against experienced players. You can say what you like about my opponents but you do not know them and so are making stuff up.