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 Anpu42 wrote:
You could show with two list and just go:
“I am planning on using this List; it does have some stuff from Forge World I have been wanting to give a try.”
If has a real issue, just pull out your second list, just make sure that the second list has Pask and still use your FW Command Tank as his.

You're still presenting it as a choice. Why make it any easier than necessary to allow your opponent to veto your choices? Just bring one list and let them either play the game or be rude and refuse to play because they don't like your army.

And of course if they refuse, don't play them. Even if they're the only other person in the store just pack up your models and go home.

You've got a few good ideas, but this one:

MrMoustaffa wrote:3. Having everything painted up to show that I put the work in to make a dedicated list

Is probably the best of them.

There is a very, very wide gulf between "This is the army I play, but I have to use a different rules set until GW produces an official one" and "I wish I were able to beat people with more powerful units that I can't find in my codex". The former engenders sympathy, like how you can't buy a SoB codex from GW, or how you couldn't buy DE for awhile. Likewise, if you're taking things ONLY from a single source, it does have some air of attempted balance. Taking a DKoK with all of its restrictions is a different thing than just stealing a FW unit to add to your regular guard army. The first is wholesome, the second makes you come across as a powergaming TFG who doesn't feel like he should be bound to the same rules as other people if that's what he needs to win a game.

And really, the impression you create is everything here, as it's hearts and minds you're trying to win. Bringing in something fluffy that looks cool and doesn't behave in an overpowered way will give people a good impression. Power gaming and jockeying for that secret edge will not.

As others have mentioned, doing a campaign wouldn't be a bad idea either, as said special units tend to be incorporated well into the particular missions.


Probably the most important thing I'd make sure you do, though, is to pretend that you're not a guard player for a moment. Guard players salavate over the thousands of options to give them cool and more powerful things. Non-guard players? Not so much. You're only going to engender bitterness and resentment if you're the only one getting cool new stuff, and other people are stuck with little more than just different models for units that they more or less already have. You have new units, they have old ones. You have more powerful units that require FW to access, and they don't. You wonder why there's reluctance.

If you're going to introduce FW, make sure you do it in such a way where EVERYONE can participate in FW in a meaningful way. An optional rules set that creates groups of haves and have-nots is just going to make things worse.

 Ailaros wrote:
Guard players salavate over the thousands of options to give them cool and more powerful things.

You mean "look at 95% of the options, realize that your initial 'that's cool' was wrong and they're worse than the codex options, and go back to Vendettas". FW may have lots of options for IG, but the only reason to use most of them is if you want to bring something different and are willing to accept a drop in power to do it.

Non-guard players? Not so much. You're only going to engender bitterness and resentment if you're the only one getting cool new stuff, and other people are stuck with little more than just different models for units that they more or less already have. You have new units, they have old ones. You have more powerful units that require FW to access, and they don't. You wonder why there's reluctance.

Are you kidding? The armies that get the most benefit from FW are Eldar and Tau. Imperial armies mostly get stuff that's no better (and often worse) than the best codex options, Eldar and Tau get powerful game-changing options like Tetras and Warp Hunters. Seriously, the only reason for Eldar and Tau players to avoid FW is that the age of their codices and likely re-writes in the near future have imposed a general "don't buy anything until the new codex" policy, whether it's FW or new GW kits.

Honestly, the only thing you need your group to get past is the idea that FW rules are OP. There is not a single unit that I’ve seen is OP in any way, barring someone not knowing the unit is in the list.

Host a FW demo game. Make a few small armies (both FW and Codex) setup to fight each other. Even do one on one battles with the units you (or possibly them) want to use. The only way that people will get past the idea is to see it in person. You can explain it to them all day long but it will not change their perception.

 hisdudeness wrote:
Honestly, the only thing you need your group to get past is the idea that FW rules are OP. There is not a single unit that I’ve seen is OP in any way, barring someone not knowing the unit is in the list.

Ever heard of a Sabre Defense Platform?

Really?

A 40-60 point immobile heavy weapon platform (Artillery type) with IG BS and 10 armor is OP? More so when the IG player has to give up normal heavy weapons team slots in the Inf Platoon to get them.

Have you even played against them? I have, both scenario and casual games and have had no more issues against them then another unit.

 hisdudeness wrote:
Really?

A 40-60 point immobile heavy weapon platform (Artillery type) with IG BS and 10 armor is OP? More so when the IG player has to give up normal heavy weapons team slots in the Inf Platoon to get them.

Have you even played against them? I have, both scenario and casual games and have had no more issues against them then another unit.

They're T7 with a 3+ armor save now.

Meh, Still no big deal. Same as any other unit in the game. You know your players and plan for he units they may bring.

The issue most players face is trying to make an all comers list against a narrow set of units (or a tailored list built for your local meta game) . Add in FW and you have to plan for twice as many units. Most players are young and don't like to think on that large a scale so they pull the "FW is not legal or OP" silliness to not have to think too hard.

My suggestion stands, play demo games to show everyone that they are not OP and normally cost more then they are worth on the field. FW units are for the people that want to play more fluff armies or spice up vanilla codex lists.

 Ailaros wrote:

Probably the most important thing I'd make sure you do, though, is to pretend that you're not a guard player for a moment. Guard players salavate over the thousands of options to give them cool and more powerful things. Non-guard players? Not so much. You're only going to engender bitterness and resentment if you're the only one getting cool new stuff, and other people are stuck with little more than just different models for units that they more or less already have. You have new units, they have old ones. You have more powerful units that require FW to access, and they don't. You wonder why there's reluctance.

If you're going to introduce FW, make sure you do it in such a way where EVERYONE can participate in FW in a meaningful way. An optional rules set that creates groups of haves and have-nots is just going to make things worse.

I know you're adamantly anti-FW Ailaros, but I gotta say, IG FW stuff, while having incredible support as far as options go, really doesn't bring much to the table when you compare it to Contemptor Pattern Dreads, Caestus Battle Rams, Tau Tetras, Wraithseers, etc.

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It's not that expensive compared to regular 40K units.

well the books you need to play those units cost a lot and offten units you would want are in more then one book , that kind of a does create a barrier for some people . some people are already leaving the game because their dex arent fun to play . losing because your opponent not only has a better dex[Ig] , but also was given options to build and ally in different types IG , just that he alone can have fun kind of a sucks .

I mean If I rolled up with an armored company army , I doubt anyone would want o play against me . Even if I used no ally and took no vendettas.

 Ailaros wrote:
Guard players salavate over the thousands of options to give them cool and more powerful things. Non-guard players? Not so much.

So basically, this is admitting you've never actually read the Forgeworld rules you dislike? Because this kind of opinion is pretty standard for people who haven't actually read any Forgeworld books.

Guard players get a few dozen options that are worse than the standouts in their codex, and a couple of sub standard alternate army lists.

Non-Guard players get a fewer options, but more that are about the same power level as the standouts in their codex, which makes them more attractive to take.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makumba wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

It's not that expensive compared to regular 40K units.

well the books you need to play those units cost a lot and offten units you would want are in more then one book , that kind of a does create a barrier for some people

The units are all in two books - Imperial Armour Apocalypse Second Edition and Imperial Armour Aeronautica. Two. Books. Cover. Every. Army.

How about you bring a few different FW options(just 3-4 simple to use ones) and ask a fellow player if he'd like to test a couple of them against you who'll be using the other two? This way you really include the opponent in it, in a positive way.

People at the GW store seem to dislike my Contemptor Dreadnought.

I wonder how they'll feel when I use 2 at 2000pts.

 Peregrine wrote:

You're still presenting it as a choice. Why make it any easier than necessary to allow your opponent to veto your choices? Just bring one list and let them either play the game or be rude and refuse to play because they don't like your army.

And of course if they refuse, don't play them. Even if they're the only other person in the store just pack up your models and go home.

So you're going to show up to a game with dreadnaughts that can drop-pod and assault, and a 25 capacity land-raider with 4 twin-linked lascannons and armoured ceremite? And you'd walk away from the table if they had reservations about this?

I'm sorry but if I encountered this attitude from someone it'd put me off Forgeworld for life.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

You're still presenting it as a choice. Why make it any easier than necessary to allow your opponent to veto your choices? Just bring one list and let them either play the game or be rude and refuse to play because they don't like your army.

And of course if they refuse, don't play them. Even if they're the only other person in the store just pack up your models and go home.

So you're going to show up to a game with dreadnaughts that can drop-pod and assault, and a 25 capacity land-raider with 4 twin-linked lascannons and armoured ceremite? And you'd walk away from the table if they had reservations about this?

I'm sorry but if I encountered this attitude from someone it'd put me off Forgeworld for life.

But if I turn up to a game with 6 Necron fliers, that's different somehow?

I was the one who got everyone to accept fw as a standard at our gaming club.
I always talk to everyone before I order so that all can have a chance
to buy and that was what got everything started at our club.

And since I usually buy a lot it was always free shipping for everyone and that made it a little more affordable.

To have a good chunk of your army turn up on turn 2 and 3 and 2/3 of the time outflanking on the table edge I want you to (thanks to MOTF) and can't even score? Yeah.

6 necron flyers is somewhat TFG. Turning up with Forgeworld units with completely out-there and grossly powerful rules that differ completely from the meta (like the AV 14 with armoured ceremite, that anyone who doesn't have Lance would find *impossible* to destroy, and can store 10 Paladins to boot) and acting like your opponent is being difficult by refusing to play you is definitely tfg.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

You're still presenting it as a choice. Why make it any easier than necessary to allow your opponent to veto your choices? Just bring one list and let them either play the game or be rude and refuse to play because they don't like your army.

And of course if they refuse, don't play them. Even if they're the only other person in the store just pack up your models and go home.

So you're going to show up to a game with dreadnaughts that can drop-pod and assault, and a 25 capacity land-raider with 4 twin-linked lascannons and armoured ceremite? And you'd walk away from the table if they had reservations about this?

I'm sorry but if I encountered this attitude from someone it'd put me off Forgeworld for life.

Considering that melee dreadnoughts are pretty much rubbish these days, a Lucius Pattern Pod is more or less the only way (barring something like a Stormraven) that they're gonna be able to do anything. They're easily mitigatable by bubblewrapping the stuff they want to go after and then putting a melta weapon anywhere near it. Seriously, Lucius Pods aren't OP.

As for Spartans, what's the big deal with the 25 capacity? When are you EVER going to use that much?? It's also 295 points, with the armoured ceramite costing an additional 20 points. What are you EVER going to use a 315 point transport tank that wants to double as gunship for??


EDIT:

 BryllCream wrote:
To have a good chunk of your army turn up on turn 2 and 3 and 2/3 of the time outflanking on the table edge I want you to (thanks to MOTF) and can't even score? Yeah.

6 necron flyers is somewhat TFG. Turning up with Forgeworld units with completely out-there and grossly powerful rules that differ completely from the meta (like the AV 14 with armoured ceremite, that anyone who doesn't have Lance would find *impossible* to destroy, and can store 10 Paladins to boot) and acting like your opponent is being difficult by refusing to play you is definitely tfg.

You haven't even read the rules for it, and they're FREE.

Grey Knights don't get the Spartan, as such there won't be any Paladins going to war in one any time soon. Furthermore, you don't have to have either lance weapons or melta weapons to pop AV14. Lascannons, Demolisher Cannons (or any Ordnance weapons bigger than a Battle Cannon really), Vindicare Assassins, Railguns, Assault Cannons, Haywire Grenades, any Monstrous Creature etc.

Drop-podding assault dreadnaughts = auto-lose for any mob army. Or at least, automatically losing all your troops.

315 points is 65 points more than a Land Raider. Ask space marine players if they'd pay 65 points more for double the twin-linked lascannons, 15 extra carrying capacity, and the ability to ignore melta guns. What do you think the number one cause of death is for Land Raiders? I'll give you a clue, it rhymes with Belta Fun. So 65 points more for double the firepower, more than double the transport capacity and invulnerability against most armies? Yeah I'd say that's a steal.

Not say I'd refuse to play against either of these. But if you showed up with them and simply demanded to be played I'd tell you to get stuffed. "Hey mind if I destroy all your troops turn one and park this Land Raider wherever the hell I want? Cheers bro."

Two drop-podding dreadnaughts and a Land Raider full of Death Company would be an auto-win against certain armies even twice their points value.


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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You haven't even read the rules for it, and they're FREE.

I have read the rules for it.

Try reading the rulebook. This thing called "allies".

 Kaldor wrote:
But if I turn up to a game with 6 Necron fliers, that's different somehow?

Not really, I'd blame a bad cold and get out. Necron fliers isn't worth playing with any army I own.

The difference is I'd be willing to consider the army with FW units as long as I could check the books first - I know most aren't actualy overpowered.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Knights don't get the Spartan, as such there won't be any Paladins going to war in one any time soon. Furthermore, you don't have to have either lance weapons or melta weapons to pop AV14. Lascannons, Demolisher Cannons (or any Ordnance weapons bigger than a Battle Cannon really), Vindicare Assassins, Railguns, Assault Cannons, Haywire Grenades, any Monstrous Creature etc.

Cheers mate I'll...I'll get right on that.

Maybe I've just played a lot more games than you. I don't bring my guard to the field to pop AV 14 with lascannons or Demolishers. I bring melta, most Imperial armies do. This is a concequence of the meta lacking AV14 that's immune to melta. Hence why Forgeworld is unpopular for reasons I stated above.

If you continue to disregard what I say (that being rude is a terrible way to get your point across) and simply keep telling me non-melta ways of killing AV14 I'll just ignore you. You are doing a terrible job of selling forgeworld to the community.

 BryllCream wrote:
Drop-podding assault dreadnaughts = auto-lose for any mob army. Or at least, automatically losing all your troops.

315 points is 65 points more than a Land Raider. Ask space marine players if they'd pay 65 points more for double the twin-linked lascannons, 15 extra carrying capacity, and the ability to ignore melta guns. What do you think the number one cause of death is for Land Raiders? I'll give you a clue, it rhymes with Belta Fun. So 65 points more for double the firepower, more than double the transport capacity and invulnerability against most armies? Yeah I'd say that's a steal.

Not say I'd refuse to play against either of these. But if you showed up with them and simply demanded to be played I'd tell you to get stuffed. "Hey mind if I destroy all your troops turn one and park this Land Raider wherever the hell I want? Cheers bro."

Two drop-podding dreadnaughts and a Land Raider full of Death Company would be an auto-win against certain armies even twice their points value.

Blood Angels don't get the Lucius Pod though... And, again, when are you EVER going to use the 25 capacity?

 BryllCream wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Knights don't get the Spartan, as such there won't be any Paladins going to war in one any time soon. Furthermore, you don't have to have either lance weapons or melta weapons to pop AV14. Lascannons, Demolisher Cannons (or any Ordnance weapons bigger than a Battle Cannon really), Vindicare Assassins, Railguns, Assault Cannons, Haywire Grenades, any Monstrous Creature etc.

Cheers mate I'll...I'll get right on that.

Maybe I've just played a lot more games than you. I don't bring my guard to the field to pop AV 14 with lascannons or Demolishers. I bring melta, most Imperial armies do. This is a concequence of the meta lacking AV14 that's immune to melta. Hence why Forgeworld is unpopular for reasons I stated above.

If you continue to disregard what I say (that being rude is a terrible way to get your point across) and simply keep telling me non-melta ways of killing AV14 I'll just ignore you. You are doing a terrible job of selling forgeworld to the community.

Or maybe you haven't. Sure, you usually don't bring lascannons to handle AV14, neither do I. This doesn't make the Spartan OP, it just means you have to adapt to the changing meta that including ForgeWorld results in. If you only bring melta as anti-tank you don't have a very rounded list anyway, even without facing a Spartan.

 BryllCream wrote:


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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You haven't even read the rules for it, and they're FREE.

I have read the rules for it.

Try reading the rulebook. This thing called "allies".

What? The part where it says that allies can never go in an allied transport? How about you take your own advice and go back and read up on the rules? Sorry, but as long as you continue to argue out of ignorance of the rules, I'm gonna be rude back.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Blood Angels don't get the Lucius Pod though... And, again, when are you EVER going to use the 25 capacity?

I didn't say that BA had to use the Lucius Pod. But they can take the Spartan. 25 Death Company assaulting out of that would make a mess out of anything.

 BryllCream wrote:

Or maybe you haven't. Sure, you usually don't bring lascannons to handle AV14, neither do I. This doesn't make the Spartan OP, it just means you have to adapt to the changing meta that including ForgeWorld results in. If you only bring melta as anti-tank you don't have a very rounded list anyway, even without facing a Spartan.

If you're wasting points in things other than melta guns to bring down AV14 you're not a very good guard player. The whole point about your "changing meta" is that I was arguing that since the OP is trying to persuade people who do not play against FW to do so, FW is not a part of their meta. You are suggesting they should be prepared for things that they have stated they will not fight against. Hence the insanity of simply demanding that someone play against your meta-busting list.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

What? The part where it says that allies can never go in an allied transport? How about you take your own advice and go back and read up on the rules? Sorry, but as long as you continue to argue out of ignorance of the rules, I'm gonna be rude back.

Missing Grey Knights out of a list of armies when I've just finished a night shift is, imo, excusable. Deliberately being rude, as you have just admitted to doing so, is not. And I'm sure is against the rules.

Again, you have utterly failed in your point, though I don't know what that is. I have said I will happily play against Forgeworld if I'm informed beforehand what books/models will be used, since to do otherwise is to play with a hidden codex. Peregrine was saying that you have the god-given right to show up with models and rules that no one has ever heard of, and demand a game. That is rude and will put people off FW for life.

 BryllCream wrote:

I didn't say that BA had to use the Lucius Pod. But they can take the Spartan. 25 Death Company assaulting out of that would make a mess out of anything.

Sure, it probably would. That's 815 (!!) points in one location though, not counting upgrades to the DC. If ordinary Land Raiders suffer from all eggs in one basket, the Spartan does even more so.

What are you going to put in the Lucius then? The only worthwhile unit that I can think of is an Ironclad Dreadnought, which gets to try to assault one unit, which it might not even kill, before your entire army turns around and blasts it into oblivion. Again, you can protect the stuff that you can't afford to lose pretty easily.

2 Lucius Pods with Ironclad Dreadnoughts and a Spartan with 25 Death Company (without gear) will cost you 1215 points. Then you have to spend points on 2 HQs and 2 more Troops choices in order for your army to be legal. You're going to have one tank with a giant bullseye painted on it eating all the enemy firepower, with the exception of the short-range meltaguns, who will instead vaporize the Ironclad Dreadnoughts, since they've got nothing better to shoot at. An army like that is a one-trick pony.

So yeah, a 2430 point army would probably curbstomp a list like that, regardless of what Codex it's from.

 BryllCream wrote:

If you're wasting points in things other than melta guns to bring down AV14 you're not a very good guard player. The whole point about your "changing meta" is that I was arguing that since the OP is trying to persuade people who do not play against FW to do so, FW is not a part of their meta. You are suggesting they should be prepared for things that they have stated they will not fight against. Hence the insanity of simply demanding that someone play against your meta-busting list.

Even if you don't bring non-melta weapons to deal with AV14 (and IG of all codices have the most options, what with Manticores, Medusae and, above all else, the Vendetta), there should be some othe anti-tank weapons in your list, no? I'll give you that it was silly of me to expect them to prepare for a meta that doesn't exist in their games, but if you've got nothing but melta weapons for anti-tank (and, again, as IG of all Codices) you're doing something horribly wrong.

 BryllCream wrote:
Missing Grey Knights out of a list of armies when I've just finished a night shift is, imo, excusable. Deliberately being rude, as you have just admitted to doing so, is not. And I'm sure is against the rules.

It wasn't just missing the Grey Knights, it's missing the fact that a unit can't ever ride in an allied transport. Sorry, but not reading up on the rules and then arguing out of ignorance really, really irks me. I'll try to chill though.

 BryllCream wrote:

Again, you have utterly failed in your point, though I don't know what that is. I have said I will happily play against Forgeworld if I'm informed beforehand what books/models will be used, since to do otherwise is to play with a hidden codex. Peregrine was saying that you have the god-given right to show up with models and rules that no one has ever heard of, and demand a game. That is rude and will put people off FW for life.

It's Peregrine's right to ask for a game, just as it is his theoretical opponent's right to decline. The point I'm trying to make is that your examples are hardly game-breaking.

I think the best way is to be friendly ask people if they want to play with them with you, and understand why they may not.

Being manipulative or aggressive I think shows that maybe they wouldn't want to play with you anyway :0 as you in that case are not very friendly at all. And defenatly not fun.

I don't think it goes much further than that other than the general stuff like having the rules on hand.

The last few posts between AlmightyWalrus and BryllCream illustrate the issues people have with FW units. On paper they look all big a scary but in reality they are no worse than any options in the GW codexes. There is nothing in FW that cannot be dealt with if people know it is coming. The “OP” stuff is very expensive points and cash wise meaning the likelihood that it will randomly show up in a friendly game is slim. Pulling the “worst case” to push a slippery slope argument just doesn’t work for me. Most FW units are over points for what they do or are designed for a very narrow task.

AlmightWalrus addressed the Spartan issue. As for as the Gun Platorm…worse than a Thundercannon.

Give your group a heads up the week before that you plan on trying some FW out. Copy the rules for the unit and have them available for them to take home.

 hisdudeness wrote:
As for as the Gun Platorm…worse than a Thundercannon.

You're insane.
That said, I'd care more about Forge World if the Nid options were worth anything. Something similar to a Maulerfiend but significantly more expensive and vulnerable to small arms fire? With no invul and missing IWND? Yeah, I'll get right on that.

Does this make me old:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RijB8wnJCN0

TC: Mobile, 3 gun modes, Techmarine. Still don't use them much but still a better heavy choice.

GP: placed wrong and becomes a 40-60 point speed bump. The only cool part is the AA Mount, but will be a target for just like anything else that is a threat to fliers. The only thing I can see them used for is anti-flier lists.

The spartan cannot be regarded in the same way as other FW units, as its rules are still experimental. The same thing happens with most of the experimental rules: they seem super powerful and then become more reasonable when the rules are finalised. I don't know if any of the experimental rules units have stayed the same when published.

Any experimental rule unit would need express consent to be played. They are an odd bunch that have some more balancing to go through. There is a big difference between them and the regular FW units.

Alright everybody, get back on topic or I'm getting the thread locked. Everyone is blowing what the other person said out of proportion and its getting rediculous.

Peregrine is saying that he either plays his forgeworld list, or he goes home. it's no different than if I showed up and somebody said "no, you can't use footguard". I would either find another opponent or head home. He doesn't mean anything malicious, he just wants to use his army.

As for the rules arguing, this was something I specifically asked to NOT come up. If you've got a problem with FW, WHY ARE YOU POSTING IN A THREAD ABOUT GETTING PEOPLE TO ACCEPT IT? I don't go into Necron threads to complain about their flyers, so why are you posting somewhere where you're just going to derail it? You guys are acting like children!

And on a completely unrelated note, any guard player who isn't bringing something besides meltaguns to help deal with enemy armor has glaring problems with his list.

Now, if you guys want to keep arguing, take it to the PM's, otherwise this thread is going into lockdown. In case you can't tell, I'm in a bad mood (missed a clutch concert), so I'm in no mood for this gak right now.