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So, let's go ahead and get this out of the way. THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION OVER WHETHER FORGEWORLD IS 40K "OFFICIAL" OR NOT. This is a thread simply asking for ways to pitch the idea of trying out forgeworld with people who normally would refuse to play it. PLEASE, don't let this devolve into another argument.

Anyways, most of my local stores do not allow FW. No real particular reason, they just simply don't seem interested. I've been wanting to use the new Armored Battlegroup list in Imperial Armor 1 volume 2, and was trying to think of some ways to get people interested in playing it. All I've come up with so far is...

1. I need the physical book (obviously) and need to be completely transparent and allow them to look through it whenever they wish.

2. Not taking the crazy stuff for a while, simply to keep from leaving a bad taste in people's mouths. Things like sabre platforms, vultures (as much as that pains me to not take them), and the artillery platforms would be saved for the more "competitive" games, or tournaments.

3. Having everything painted up to show that I put the work in to make a dedicated list. For example, if I'm running a commissar tank, it better have a Commissar leaning out of the top and be painted like a commissar tank would be.

4. Encourage them to try FW units as well. Since most likely they won't have them right off the bat, allow them to proxy whatever they wanted to use. After all, if I want to use it, they should be able to as well.

Are there any other tips people have for helping to get FW accepted in a local area? I'm really more interested in it as a way to vary up my lists and have some fun with modeling. I'm not really looking to add FW to make my army more nasty, I'm just wanting to have some more fun with the game and mix things up.

Although I gotta admit, a command vanquisher with beasthunter shells sounds pretty awesome

This is the problem with forge world

1. It's not easily available
2. It's expensive as hell, have to buy yet another army book
3. It's not "standard" 40k

If you can figure out a way to bypass the first two problems, then the third vanishes with them.

As a casual gamer, why would I want to spend that much money?

As a hardcore competitor, why would I want to use something that's not accepted everywhere, and why use it when my standard stuff is usually better?

This is a complete guess but it seems like the only people FW cater to are those who aren't casual, and aren't super competitive. A sort of in between with a lot of disposable income.

Edit - FW also caters to people who paint much more than they play, forgot about those guys.

Suggest a Mini-Campaign using one of the scenarios out of the back of one of the books.
If you have a [or multiple] copy, just leave it on the table for people look through.
Find one other player who is interested and play one of the scenarios out of the back of the book.
Look into the Horus Heresy Books, some of that stuff looks so cool.

 Necroshea wrote:
This is the problem with forge world
As a casual gamer, why would I want to spend that much money?

As a casual gamer, because they're amazing models. Also offers more variety in our gaming group, where a lot of people play IG, so having a different IG ruleset is pretty neat.

Then again, never had issues regarding using Forgeworld (even with proxies, since otherwise I don't have 1 HQ and 2 Troops).

I would buy and play FW items in a heartbeat, if they werent UK only and bloody expensive to get here.

Honestly;

I spearheaded the introduction of FW to my LGS this past year; much due to my love of Elysians.

I did two things.

1. I regularly inserted units into discussions. Not forcively or anything, but just like;

"Yeah I mean SM tanks are decent, but level some niches unfilled."

"The whirlwind isn't horrible, especially when you have the option to run it as a Hyperios."

"Hyperios? What's it do?"

"Blah blah, check it out right here."

The more you demonstrate FW as a gap-filling venue, and show that it's less of a route to expensive power-units, acceptance is pretty easy.

2. Ran some bigger games against more FW-friendly players. Now, this requires you to be a pretty effective player, but you need to largely control the flow of the game, making sure that it is both fun, and not a beat-down for the other player. Keep it even, make little slip-ups for the sake of interest.

Show that the list/units are safe and nothing to freak out about, and more importantly: Draw a crowd.

People will want to know about unit X or list Y, and see them in action.

More exposure is more realizations of viability, in this case relating to FW.

Good luck.

(And you have balls to start a thread like this)

Just get them to play a casual game with the model in question. Give them the rules a week in advance, let them mull over it. Then play the game.

Most people that have an irrational fear of Forge World have never even seen the actual rules much less played against them.

Since usually it is a community based problem and not a overall problem

If you join in a new group that doesn’t really use FW stuff, try to weenie them in with simpler things like a russ or land raider variant. Something familiar that will do extra stuff for a justifiable cost would be more accepting I would think.

Also I think letting people read the FW book and getting them interested is important as well. Nothing sucks more than playing against some one with FW models and rules and having them protect there book from others like it was there only child and not let you read the rules for your self. And who knows they may buy or scratch build FW stuff for more flavor.

Luckily my local area is completely accepting of FW models.

Start them out with formations and then slowly work up. Don't run a super heavy if the other side doesn't have one.

If you have a physical copy of the book you want to run, simply let them flick through it. You'd have to be *very* close minded to simply refuse to even have a look.

I was pretty negative about my friend running those Eldar pirate things for a while, but when i had a flick through the codex I realised it was actually very tame, so I let him go for it.

Probably would have been different had he wanted to run certain units/vehicles that are pretty blatently OP. Yes it's not fair, because normal 40k has OP things too. But such is life. If you want no holds far ForgeWorld accepetance, the best way is to get them to do forgeworld as well. I'd be happy playing any Forgeworld if I had a DKOK army, or least proxied one. Though they might change their minds after I spam Earthshaker cannons

From my point of view, the issues I have seen with FW stuff boil down into two core points:

1) Improperly managed expectations (oh, I didn't know you were bringing FW).

2) "Have-nots" syndrome.


My question to the OP is this: What's your audience? A private group, or a FLGS?

If you're dealing with a close group of friends, suggest it for next time you play. Pass the books around for everyone to read. Loan them out if you must. Encourage your opponents to proxy stuff (in the beginning)

If you're dealing with a FLGS, then make yourself the FW advocate for the store. Try to talk the store owner into doing monthly orders for the kids who don't have credit cards (with a nominal charge for his time). Volunteer to run scratchbuilding "hobby nights" at the store where you make suggestions and try to help people make their own FW stuff. Get a FW (not 40k) night scheduled. Integrate it into the community. This sets expectations AND it eliminates the have-nots.

Let them have a look at the rules, yes; I find it also helps to point out that the rumors of the unbalanced nature of Forge World models are typically gross exaggerations, you can get far more unbalanced things out of the 'official' published Codexes than you can out of most Forge World books. Finding examples of a Forge World unit that's weaker than something in a Codex (compare Vultures to Vendettas, for instance, price-wise, armament-wise, and transport-capacity-wise) helps a lot.

What I find is the biggest deterrent to using FW in games is that the IG has TONS of stuff, everyone else just has some, I understand a number of the things that the IG can take are Imperium and thus available to SM as well, but it just feels so weighted in favor of the IG.

 CrashCanuck wrote:
What I find is the biggest deterrent to using FW in games is that the IG has TONS of stuff, everyone else just has some, I understand a number of the things that the IG can take are Imperium and thus available to SM as well, but it just feels so weighted in favor of the IG.

That's funny, because as an IG player, I feel the same way, but I'm deterred for the exact opposite reason. IG has tons of stuff, but it's all either stuff that was pushed into the IG codex or stuff that is pretty crappy. LR Annihilator. Arvus Lighter? No thank you. We have the Hades Breaching Drill, the Lightning, and those weapon platform thingies everyone loves more than HWS. We have all the Baneblade and Malcador chassis tanks, but I believe those are all superheavy (and inappropriate for non-apoc play).

Meanwhile, the handful of things that, say, Tau or Eldar have are very few and far between, but pants on head crazy awesome.

Of course, I make this statement having not seen Aeronautica or the re-release of IA1, so things may have changed.

 CrashCanuck wrote:
What I find is the biggest deterrent to using FW in games is that the IG has TONS of stuff, everyone else just has some, I understand a number of the things that the IG can take are Imperium and thus available to SM as well, but it just feels so weighted in favor of the IG.

This is one of the main reasons I'm trying to get it accepted believe it or not. We have a TON of IG players and it's getting really boring playing the same codex over and over again. I'm hoping to get FW accepted so that we have some variety, as other than me, literally every other IG player is a mech commander. I think out of all of us, the non IG players would appreciate it the most, as several have stated it gets boring playing the same army over and over.

If FW got accepted, we could branch out far more. Armored battlegroup, Elysians, DKoK, etc. Maybe people would actually look FORWARD to playing against IG at our store again.

As for what kind of group it is, one store is a very tightknit community, almost like a club (they often go to tournaments using the store's name for their team and banners) Another is a huge FLGS where all manner of people play at. Those are mostly pickup games when I head over there, but they seem to have a pretty strong community as well. And lastly, we have a new GW store in town. The manager is a really cool guy, but I wouldn't really go there for games much, as it's only got 2 tables and is a very small store.

When getting ready for a friendly game tell your opponent that you'd like to try model X from FW in a friendly game.

Show them the stats and talk about it for a few minutes. Perhaps even going so far to discuss how you plan on using it. Make sure the rest of your list isn't a Power Gamer / tournament list.

Hopefully they'll be interested enough to see what happens. Of course, be prepared for that model to take the vast majority of the hits early on.

Personally I'd be interested in seeing anything you wanted to throw down on the table. Regardless, your reaction to the game as a whole is going to help drive their feelings about it. If you're TFG then be prepared for that to be your last game with FW units. If you are fun, and talk about what it's doing in game then you'll go a long ways to having a repeat with more units.

My roommate is an IG player and did get IA Aeronautica, and yeah I though IG was bad enough with undercosted flyers before, now it's rediculous

 CrashCanuck wrote:
My roommate is an IG player and did get IA Aeronautica, and yeah I though IG was bad enough with undercosted flyers before, now it's rediculous

There's no flyer in Aeronautica that's better than a Vendetta, so what's the problem?

The only use I have for FW is for decorative bitz, shoulder pads and oddly enough, autocannon arms for my dreads (why the heck can't Citadel make those goddamn arms instead of making me buy stuff from FW just to give my dreads the proper wargear?!).

Otherwise I'm still very apprehensive about FW. I think it's decent of OP not to bring out the crazy stuff, but the problem is that by giving the nod to FW stuff that isn't perceived to be "crazy", it opens the door to a slippery slope to the other FW stuff that is legitimately "crazy". Because really, how does one qualitatively figure out what in FW is truly "crazy", or not?

 NEWater wrote:
The only use I have for FW is for decorative bitz, shoulder pads and oddly enough, autocannon arms for my dreads (why the heck can't Citadel make those goddamn arms instead of making me buy stuff from FW just to give my dreads the proper wargear?!).

Otherwise I'm still very apprehensive about FW. I think it's decent of OP not to bring out the crazy stuff, but the problem is that by giving the nod to FW stuff that isn't perceived to be "crazy", it opens the door to a slippery slope to the other FW stuff that is legitimately "crazy". Because really, how does one qualitatively figure out what in FW is truly "crazy", or not?

Read the rules for the sabre gun platform, and thou shalt know crazy. Vultures are really good, but I don't think they're too broken. The main reason I wouldn't take them in the beginning is because they're expensive as hell and that they use a LOT of special rules. Things like that tend to leave a bad taste in a person's mouth, so they would stay at home. Breaching drllls used to be crazy, but they got clubbed over the head with a nerf bat till blood seeped out their ears so they're not too bad anymore.

I'm not against bringing stronger units in my FW army, but that would be if the other guy made it implicitly clear that he wanted to have a more "competitive" game, and he's taking FW too. Most of the units though are no different than what you see in a typical codex. For example, I would make heavy use of command and commissar vanquishers, because an armored battlegroup NEEDS them to effectively deal with MC's and enemy armor (unless you're using airpower or things like vets/stormtroopers). Plus, since most of the time they would be run as allies to a foot IG main detachment, the lord commissar tanks would provide invaluable LD to all the squishy guardsmen.

Like I said, I'm not looking to take super face smashing lists to beat people down with. I just want some more variety in my guard army and a reason for me to take my 7+ leman russes. Heck, maybe even give me an excuse to buy some of the beautiful FW turrets they sell.

+ models look really good for the most part
+ add variety

- even more expensive than GW
- mostfly focused on IG
- very variable balance; a lot of units are extremely strong while others seem to be less viable
- can't easily be picked up at a store

If you want others to start with FW, make sure you're playing a more casual environment where people don't bring up cheesy lists and make sure the guys you play with have a big wallet.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There's no flyer in Aeronautica that's better than a Vendetta, so what's the problem?

Exactly. This is why the whole "IG get everything" argument is kind of weak. Sure, they get lots of units, but in the end it's just a lot of units that join Hellhounds/Sentinels/etc in the "not a Vendetta" pile and never make it into your list. On the other hand, armies like Tau or Eldar that don't have a modern codex with powerful units get fewer total units, but each of them is much more likely to be good enough to make an impact in their list. So the best way to address the "all IG" complaint is to just show the Eldar player the Vendetta and Thunderbolt and how the Thunderbolt is an expensive joke compared to the codex Vendetta, then show them Nightwings and Warp Hunters.


Anyway, my method is simple:

1) Always have the book, and let them read the rules for your stuff before the game. Besides the practical value of having the rules present in case of disputes this also shows that you aren't TFG with a pirated copy of the rules (which may or may not even be current anymore) for the proxy "model" of whatever overpowered unit they could find. Though at minimum you need to bring a printed copy of that pirated pdf, so that you aren't just making stuff up and telling your opponent to trust you.

2) Always have everything painted. People like painted models and, like having the actual book, it helps show that you aren't TFG bringing bare plastic proxies of this "FW" thing you thought would be good at winning games.

3) Put the FW models in your list and don't allow anyone to tell you to remove them. The more you go around asking for permission and being willing to play alternate no-FW lists, the more people treat it as a special non-standard game that needs permission. Instead, my policy is simple: just like I wouldn't give an opponent veto power over my choices between codex units I won't give them veto power over my equally-legal FW units. If someone objects, I won't play against them. If an event doesn't allow FW I won't attend.

FW would probably make my IG better , but the books and models cost so much I dont think it is worth it . If I could order with more people it would bea easier , but closest friends play SW , nids and eldar . And FW either has nothing they want to use , has nothing for their army or it the only thing they want to use is flyers [but they want to use "counts as" DE flyers for those and dont want to buy the books] and am not interested in spending hard cash on stuff others counts as with cheap GW stuff.

I wish FW did more nids stuff and not just marines and IG , my best friends plays or rather played nids , but 5th killed his will to play . He play like 4 games against my IG and some against SW/IG my friend plays and I think he is going to drop the hobby :(

It does depend on your group. If they are already militantly anti-Forge World then you've got an uphill battle in front of you.

Generally speaking though, people operate off implied permissions and choices. If I say, do you want the chocolate or the marshmallow? It's already implied that you will choose one or the other. Of course you still retain the ability to say "neither, I don't like sweets" but the overwhelming majority of people will only select from the presented choices. This is a great technique for getting kids to do things they don't want to do. "Do you want to do the dishes, or tidy your room?" implies that the decision to do chores has already been made. The child can still obviously refuse to do either, but the brain is wired to select one of the presented options, and the child is more likely to choose one of the chores than just refuse outright.

Similarly with Forge World. If you simply present your opponent with your army and list and rules (in the form of the actual book, of course) you're not taking away their ability to refuse a game. They can always do that. What you're doing is implying that they've already decided to play against Forge World. If they want to refuse, they have to use their generic power of refusal that always applies in every game, and most people won't want to do that because it's silly.

It's key, at this point, not to give them any reason to use that generic power of refusal in later games. We have an Armoured Company player in our local group who has tabled just about every other player and recently went undefeated through a campaign we had. It left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths, and some people actively complained to the Campaign organiser (who thankfully stuck to his guns and told them not to be such sooks) but that sort of experience can make people say to themselves "I really don't want to do that again". But that falls under the category of considering the enjoyment of your opponent, which you should be doing before every game anyway.

So in practical terms, you just agree to play a game with your opponent like normal, deploy like normal, and generally don't mention anything about Forge World, and certainly don't ask if they're ok with playing against FW units. If they ask "What's that?" you tell them. It's a Sabre platform or whatever. Here's the rules. You can even mention what they are and what they do when you deploy them (or, if keeping them in reserve, then after deployment finishes). "This is a Manticore. It fires a S10, ap4 rocket with a large blast template. This is a Hades Breaching Drill. It burrows under ground, and hits any units it touches with a S10 ap2 large blast, that scatters as normal."

The key is to just present the units as if they were normal units in your codex (because that's exactly what they are) and not to imply that your opponent has any special power of refusal. He retains his normal ability to refuse to play, that applies in every game. He does not get any extra veto powers just because you're using Forge World.

I'd start by lowballing it. Don't bring anything fancy. Show up with a Leman Russ Annihilator or something equally as "low impact" and see how it goes. Then expand from there.

 Necroshea wrote:
1. It's not easily available

Compared to? It's 2012 (almost 2013). International mail order is quite a bit more reliable than it was 20 years ago. What's so difficult about getting FW models? You order them from FW... and then send them to you. End of story.

 Necroshea wrote:
2. It's expensive as hell, have to buy yet another army book

It's not that expensive compared to regular 40K units.

 Necroshea wrote:
3. It's not "standard" 40k

Depending on your point of view, that is. But the OP asked us not to discuss this, so I won't.

 Necroshea wrote:
As a casual gamer, why would I want to spend that much money?

Non sequitur. I'm a 'casual gamer' and I have tons of FW stuff.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
As a casual gamer, why would I want to spend that much money?

Non sequitur. I'm a 'casual gamer' and I have tons of FW stuff.

Really, it's the casual gamers that WANT to use FW stuff. Competitive players tend to be fine with a "codex-only" house rule because it maintains the nice stable metagame they're used to and ensures that their tournament-winning lists are never in danger of becoming weaker, and would never bother with most FW units anyway since they tend to be weaker than codex options. The people who benefit most from FW rules are "casual" players who are interested in adding variety to their armies and don't really care that, for example, the Thunderbolt they want to use is garbage compared to the Vendetta.

 Kaldor wrote:
It does depend on your group. If they are already militantly anti-Forge World then you've got an uphill battle in front of you.
.

Interesting idea on the first point of how I word it. I'll think about how I can use that.

As for the just not telling them and bringing it to a game anyways, that would definitely not fly. They know the regular IG codex very well. If I were to show up and say "yeah this is a commissar tank, and this is a command tank, and these are regular tanks." they would pack up right then. Not because it's forgeworld so much as I just popped it on them out of the blue.

I'd like to make it accepted so that others can use it as well. I don't want it to develop a stigma.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
As for the just not telling them and bringing it to a game anyways, that would definitely not fly. They know the regular IG codex very well. If I were to show up and say "yeah this is a commissar tank, and this is a command tank, and these are regular tanks." they would pack up right then. Not because it's forgeworld so much as I just popped it on them out of the blue.

We're not saying to just drop it on the table without explaining properly what it is, we're saying to just state that it's in your list and hand them the rules for it. The reason is simple:

If you present it as "I'd like to use this special thing, will you allow it?" you set it up in a way that they have veto power over it, and would be justified in using it because you're doing something outside the normal rules of the game. You're just conceding defeat for no good reason, and maintaining the idea that FW is something weird and needs special treatment.

If, instead, you present it as "I've chosen this legal option from the options I have available" you set up the more accurate situation: it's part of the game, and their only option is to exercise their "you don't have a gun to my head" option and decline to play you at all. Instead of starting from a weaker position you start from the default assumption that what you're doing is ok (which it is), and put the burden on your opponent to be rude and refuse to play against you. And, more importantly, you start to shift the general opinion from "permission required" to "the decision has been made, either accept it or quit".

You could show with two list and just go:
“I am planning on using this List; it does have some stuff from Forge World I have been wanting to give a try.”
If has a real issue, just pull out your second list, just make sure that the second list has Pask and still use your FW Command Tank as his.

 Peregrine wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
As for the just not telling them and bringing it to a game anyways, that would definitely not fly. They know the regular IG codex very well. If I were to show up and say "yeah this is a commissar tank, and this is a command tank, and these are regular tanks." they would pack up right then. Not because it's forgeworld so much as I just popped it on them out of the blue.

We're not saying to just drop it on the table without explaining properly what it is, we're saying to just state that it's in your list and hand them the rules for it. The reason is simple:

If you present it as "I'd like to use this special thing, will you allow it?" you set it up in a way that they have veto power over it, and would be justified in using it because you're doing something outside the normal rules of the game. You're just conceding defeat for no good reason, and maintaining the idea that FW is something weird and needs special treatment.

If, instead, you present it as "I've chosen this legal option from the options I have available" you set up the more accurate situation: it's part of the game, and their only option is to exercise their "you don't have a gun to my head" option and decline to play you at all. Instead of starting from a weaker position you start from the default assumption that what you're doing is ok (which it is), and put the burden on your opponent to be rude and refuse to play against you. And, more importantly, you start to shift the general opinion from "permission required" to "the decision has been made, either accept it or quit".

Ok that makes more sense thanks