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 Kaldor wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
If I show up one week with something he's never heard of with a half a dozen rules he has no idea about, he has every right to refuse to play me.

That must make it tough when you play newly released codexes, or even just ones not familiar to you. I mean, how dare people include official standard units, in their lists without running it by you first! The audacity!

I certainly agree that when playing new or unfamiliar units, a good player takes the time to explain exactly what a unit does and provides the rules if his opponent is at all unclear. But the idea that my opponent should have some right of veto over my army, just because the units are unfamiliar is ridiculous. I certainly didn't ask permission before running my Dreadknight and Paladins for the first time, and nor will I when I get my Blight Drones for my Nurgle army.

Maybe not in your group, but I DO have to run lists past my opponent. No, I don't get to run Paladins and I can't bring up any IA stuff. Some groups are like that. It doesn't matter how good of a player you are if you can't get a game. That is why this thread exists; to help brainstorm ways to remove the stigma surrounding FW units. All I am seeing is finger pointing and name calling, which is doing nothing to help get FW more commonly accepted in game groups.

And as a very wise man said, "Knowing is half the battle!"

Education is the only way to remove this misconception that FW units are OP. And the best (but not easiest) way is for them to see it in person. To see that most FW lists are fluff lists that will die a horrible (yet fluffy) death against even a mediocrely played codex list. These lists only excel in the environment they were designed for.

The imagination of most players gets the better of them when they see a FW unit/list on paper. There is a mixture of fear of the one thing the unit excels at that blinds them to the weakness/short-comings of the unit and envy of a beautiful model they feel they will never own. The result is a basic human response. The sad fact is that the player is 80% of the value of a unit and the stat line only 20%. Arm Chair generaling is the bane of FW.

It all comes down to the personal tastes of the player. Having spent 8 years in the US Army, I relish the unknown of battle…the idea that the best plan ever survives the first bullet sent down range. It is a challenge for me to build a list that will hold its own against any army it may fight. If I can win (or even be close) against a list I’ve never seen on the table then I’ve won.

Others hate change and being placed in uncomfortable situations. They like the idea that the biggest change they may see week to week is that Jimmy bought a 3rd Russ or Sammy added that heavy weapons team he has been saving up for. FW units are seen to change the meta game too much for the comfort of these people.

I jumped on the Red Scorpion wagon and had to work to get games in. Everyone was scared of the Tac squads with Feel No Pain. Once they saw them on the table, things changed. While problematic, they are not game changers as the arm chair generals claimed.

 Kaldor wrote:

That must make it tough when you play newly released codexes, or even just ones not familiar to you. I mean, how dare people include official standard units, in their lists without running it by you first! The audacity!

I certainly agree that when playing new or unfamiliar units, a good player takes the time to explain exactly what a unit does and provides the rules if his opponent is at all unclear. But the idea that my opponent should have some right of veto over my army, just because the units are unfamiliar is ridiculous. I certainly didn't ask permission before running my Dreadknight and Paladins for the first time, and nor will I when I get my Blight Drones for my Nurgle army.

Your opponent can refuse to play you because he doesn't like Playing Grey Knights, because he doesn't like forge world, or because he doesn't like the look of your nose. You ask if people are ok with forge world because some people are not, and it sucks having to pack your models back up. What sticker FW puts on their books doesn't matter in the slightest... All that matters is what your opponent thinks of them.

I'm always happy to obligingly let my evening be marred by the sub-GW balance and rules peddled by FW, but I don't see why everyone should have to be so accommodating. Fact is most folks who won't play FW have done so before - it is an informed choice. It's easy to convince some kid whose never had to deal with them to play, because they don't kow any better.

 Hollowman wrote:
sub-GW balance and rules peddled by FW

Citation needed. Considering GW created Vendettas, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs that's a pretty tall order.

 Hollowman wrote:
Your opponent can refuse to play you because he doesn't like Playing Grey Knights, because he doesn't like forge world, or because he doesn't like the look of your nose. You ask if people are ok with forge world because some people are not, and it sucks having to pack your models back up. What sticker FW puts on their books doesn't matter in the slightest... All that matters is what your opponent thinks of them.

Absolutely! I'm just sick of people insisting that refusing to play against FW units is somehow different to refusing to play Grey Knights or refusing to play someone with a crooked nose.

Everyone always retains their natural right to refusal. Maybe they've played six games in a row against Grey Knights and just don't feel like repeating the process. But there is no more justification for refusing to play against FW units than any of the other official Codex units, and a player shouldn't attempt to let his opponent veto his list like that. I certainly didn't hear about players refusing to play against Helldrakes, nor would I expect to hear about players asking if it's ok for them to use their new units, just because they're new.

 -Loki- wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
With all the people shopping online for discounts and ebay for second hand, using direct sales cost for a Land Raider is kind of disingenuous.

Those people will also go on ebay and find discounted Forgeworld products, which isn't hard (though opens up the whole counterfeit issue). Since online priced vary quite a bit, the easiest way to compare prices is RRP of each product.

The second hand market is flooded with FW recasts. Assuming one wanted to avoid all of that, it's best to buy new.

It's flooded with GW recasts as well - it's very easy to get duped into buying primed or poorly painted models, only to strip them and find they're resin. Saying that the risk is only there for FW second hand purchases is a bit disingenuous.

A) The point was to get something as a good comparison base for FW prices. Meaning second hand GW wasn't even something I was looking at.
B) I said that its best to use the average 20% off retail discount shop - which would mean buying new vs buying new. You can buy NIB GW stuff off eBay - often at about the same 20% off retail (or lower). Finding NIB FW stuff on eBay is rare.

 Kaldor wrote:

Absolutely! I'm just sick of people insisting that refusing to play against FW units is somehow different to refusing to play Grey Knights or refusing to play someone with a crooked nose.

Except there is. The rules aren't readily available, you can't just look in the back of the rule book to check what the stats of a unit is unlike every codex option. Nor can you grab a store copy off a shelf and flick to check something. You have to ask your opponent to have a printed out sheet with the stats on, that you can look at every time he does something.
I can understand why people don't like playing against that. The idea of checking constantly seems a little rude in my opinion, (although that happens with some new codices too) and running into things you don't expect can be frustrating. I recall being bewildered when a str:10 melta blast from a transport hit 3 of my chimerae and the DKOK inside then proceeded to assault. I didn't have a clue they could ignore the rules like that, and it caused an argument over what's more important - the new BRB or the old FW book.

Being transparent with FW units goes a long way for them to be accepted as many people have already mentioned, but in some PUGs I just don't want to be constantly asking questions or checking rules as I feel like it's equivalent to calling my opponent a cheat. Against friends it's an entirely different matter... (and a great way to learn what to expect from more common FW units.)

No, it's different because all the codexes come as a package deal when it comes to acceptance. If it's a codex, you've already accepted it as part of the "necessary accessories for the models we all play".
You need to extract the 40K from the Apocalypse in Forgeworld products first, otherwise all people will see is "optional expansion that I don't play".

So to peddle Forgeworld armies like DKOK or Corsair you need to get the message across that "there's a normal codex for normal 40k in here". Getting people to accept random units is harder.

 Kaldor wrote:

But the idea that my opponent should have some right of veto over my army, just because the units are unfamiliar is ridiculous. I certainly didn't ask permission before running my Dreadknight and Paladins for the first time, and nor will I when I get my Blight Drones for my Nurgle army.

GW disagree.

Wow. Remember that time that the conversation melted down into the very thing the OP asked for it not to, in bold with an underline?

BryllCream wrote:GW disagree.

Here's the thing: EVERY GAME OF 40K IS "OPPONENT'S PERMISSION".

You can't compel someone to play a game of 40k with you. It's not supported in the rules, and any method you could use outside of the rules might be illegal. It can't be done.

As such, since every game IS voluntary, the only difference between Experiment 626 looking at an all Strike/Interceptor GK list, looking back at his Daemon army, and walking away or you looking at a list that happens to contain a Leman Russ Annihilator or two, scoffing derisively, and walking away is the particular flavor of faux moral outrage. In the case of the GK list, I understand the frustration.

This thread seems to have expended it's usefulness. Or the last three pages should be deleted. One of the two.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Except there is. The rules aren't readily available, you can't just look in the back of the rule book to check what the stats of a unit is unlike every codex option.

Where's the rules for the Heldrake in the BRB?

 BryllCream wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

But the idea that my opponent should have some right of veto over my army, just because the units are unfamiliar is ridiculous. I certainly didn't ask permission before running my Dreadknight and Paladins for the first time, and nor will I when I get my Blight Drones for my Nurgle army.

GW disagree.

Reading comprehension. It's a recommendation, not a must.

Uh.

No disrespect, but everyone in here is getting a real bad attitude about their posts.

Whether it's the "Force FW down their throat" team, or team "permission, or death!", you guys are getting really snippy and childish.

It looks ridiculous.

And provides for entirely fruitless discussion, if both sides are just sniping at eachother.

I really like FW stuff, it looks cool and adds some cool stuff to a codex.
I would probably say something like, "Hey man, wanna play some 40k?""I am going to use this dude as my HQ he counts as (insert special character name from FW) he does this _______. Is that cool?" I will also photocopy the page with the rules for the unit i am trying out to give to my opponent along with a copy of my list, which is a lot more than i usually get in return.

Honestly I think a campaign might be the way to go to introduce FW into a setting.

Just being a nice guy about it and not being upset if someone doesn't want to play toys with you is the way to go. If they seem reluctant just let them win, at least you got to play lol.

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
With all the people shopping online for discounts and ebay for second hand, using direct sales cost for a Land Raider is kind of disingenuous.

Those people will also go on ebay and find discounted Forgeworld products, which isn't hard (though opens up the whole counterfeit issue). Since online priced vary quite a bit, the easiest way to compare prices is RRP of each product.

The second hand market is flooded with FW recasts. Assuming one wanted to avoid all of that, it's best to buy new.

It's flooded with GW recasts as well - it's very easy to get duped into buying primed or poorly painted models, only to strip them and find they're resin. Saying that the risk is only there for FW second hand purchases is a bit disingenuous.

A) The point was to get something as a good comparison base for FW prices. Meaning second hand GW wasn't even something I was looking at.

If you didn't want to open the second hand market can of worms, you shodn't have. You made the first claim about buying second hand - it's right at the top of the quote tree.

rigeld2 wrote:
B) I said that its best to use the average 20% off retail discount shop - which would mean buying new vs buying new. You can buy NIB GW stuff off eBay - often at about the same 20% off retail (or lower). Finding NIB FW stuff on eBay is rare.

True enough about NIB stuff on ebay - the problem is, that's not all you were talking about in your post. You said ebay second hand, you did open it up to finding very cheap, even legitimate, Forgeworld stuff. You can't move the goal posts because you don't like where the dicussion went.

Fair enough - I didn't word my posts correctly. I've made my point though - you shouldn't compare RRP for a Land Raider to a FW price without including a discount.

Good news everyone! Talked to several people in my store about FW, and it turns out many of them own FW models that they've always wanted to try (wierdly enough, most are eldar or space marine players) Many said the same thing "yeah I use these for X in the codex, but I've always wanted to try them as what they're intended to be."

To top that off, our guy that organizes many of our tournaments is trying to start a campaign. FW is allowed with opponent's consent, and other people asked if they could use FW as well. This may be the break I was looking for. I look forward to getting to use an armored battlegroup list for the first time. Hopefully it'll actually happen.

Thank you guys so much for all the help and feedback. I know this thread has gone off the rails a couple of times but I appreciate everyone's effort to wrestle it back on track.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Good news everyone! Talked to several people in my store about FW, and it turns out many of them own FW models that they've always wanted to try (wierdly enough, most are eldar or space marine players) Many said the same thing "yeah I use these for X in the codex, but I've always wanted to try them as what they're intended to be."

To top that off, our guy that organizes many of our tournaments is trying to start a campaign. FW is allowed with opponent's consent, and other people asked if they could use FW as well. This may be the break I was looking for. I look forward to getting to use an armored battlegroup list for the first time. Hopefully it'll actually happen.

Thank you guys so much for all the help and feedback. I know this thread has gone off the rails a couple of times but I appreciate everyone's effort to wrestle it back on track.

AWESOME!

Lol, so there wasn't really any reason to worry in the first place

What do the other IG guys think about all this? Just out of interest.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Lol, so there wasn't really any reason to worry in the first place

What do the other IG guys think about all this? Just out of interest.

One was mildly interested. The others didn't comment whatsoever.

The irony of the situation is killing me

I started 40k with IG. FW (not IA) being overpowered is absurd to me. We have literally the weapons platforms, the Hades, and Lightnings. Those are the only worthwhile things I've seen come out of FW for us. Meanwhile, SM have Contemptor Pattern Mortis Dreads, Caestus Battle Rams, Land Raider Terminus Ultras, and Lucius Pattern Drop Pods. Not to mention all the crazy stuff that Tau and Eldar get.

I think I've lost most times we've played with IA stuff, but I still do it.

 daedalus wrote:
Land Raider Terminus Ultras

Not only was it from the GW studio, it was Apocalypse only (since it was only released as an Apocalypse datasheet).

This is the sort of misinformation that hurts Forgeworld.

Yeah, Land Raider Terminus Ultra is Apoc only, and rather expensive unit at that. The Caestus Battle Ram is a rather expensive ($) model, and I haven't seen anyone use it. Personally, I'd rather just use a LR Crusader than a Caestus.

@ MrMoustaffa: Post up some game reports, man. Have fun.

 -Loki- wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Land Raider Terminus Ultras

Not only was it from the GW studio, it was Apocalypse only (since it was only released as an Apocalypse datasheet).

This is the sort of misinformation that hurts Forgeworld.

My mistake. I meant the Achilles. The Terminus Ultra was the lascannon one (and hilariously awesome).

 daedalus wrote:
The Terminus Ultra was the lascannon one (and hilariously awesome).

It is. I can't wait to use it, and promptly blow it up by rolling a lot of 1's on my to hit rolls...

Crazyterran wrote:
People at the GW store seem to dislike my Contemptor Dreadnought.

I wonder how they'll feel when I use 2 at 2000pts.

I'm with you for some reason everyone wants to shoot at him. Just because he is there providing a 24" bubble in which I dare your flyer to enter.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

Absolutely! I'm just sick of people insisting that refusing to play against FW units is somehow different to refusing to play Grey Knights or refusing to play someone with a crooked nose.

Except there is. The rules aren't readily available, you can't just look in the back of the rule book to check what the stats of a unit is unlike every codex option. Nor can you grab a store copy off a shelf and flick to check something. You have to ask your opponent to have a printed out sheet with the stats on, that you can look at every time he does something.
I can understand why people don't like playing against that. The idea of checking constantly seems a little rude in my opinion, (although that happens with some new codices too) and running into things you don't expect can be frustrating. I recall being bewildered when a str:10 melta blast from a transport hit 3 of my chimerae and the DKOK inside then proceeded to assault. I didn't have a clue they could ignore the rules like that, and it caused an argument over what's more important - the new BRB or the old FW book.

Being transparent with FW units goes a long way for them to be accepted as many people have already mentioned, but in some PUGs I just don't want to be constantly asking questions or checking rules as I feel like it's equivalent to calling my opponent a cheat. Against friends it's an entirely different matter... (and a great way to learn what to expect from more common FW units.)

Suppose the C:CSM is sold out and someone tried using a helldrake

Edit: Or an even better example, what if someone has the audacity to play C:SB or field flamers/chariots of slaneesh? I suppose you'd put them up against a wall as well, wouldn't you?