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GW/Fogreworld, which is one entity, has stated directly in their FW books which units are considered units that can be used in regular 40k games. The writers of the game stated that this is a fact, and that since FW is not as common, to talk to your opponent first.

So yeah, expecting the players who don't want to play with FW rules to simply accept and state that yes, GW has stated that these units are legal but I don't want to play against them is a reasonable starting point for the discussion.

The only religious comparison is for the deniers who want to make up their own criteria for how GW must present GW's intent.

Edit: I think this is on topic since it does address how the other side might respond, because if they can just accept that they don't like X as the reason, then they can make the next steps to address what they don't like. For example, armored companies might be unbalanced at the point levels they want to play.

Can't believe Kaldor and I have ended up on the same side of this...

 Ailaros wrote:
Let's say that in order to have a conversation with someone, whatever the topic is about, the other person must agree to the statement that "Jesus IS Lord. If you disagree, you can't be useful to this conversation".

Really think about it.

I thought about it. All I see are red fish.

Your analogy is so far removed from what Kaldor was saying that it's almost insulting. "FW are legal/No they're not!" is the same as "Jesus is Lord/No he's not?". You must be kidding...

And don't try to back track and say "I didn't say they were the same!". You did. You equated one to the other.

 Ailaros wrote:
Once you show up with a mechanized guard army that can take russes as troops and doesn't even need to bother with infantry, guess how long it's going to take before everyone is playing an armored company?

ABG is actually not that great, as a pure list. Too few scoring units and it just folds against multi charges. However, it works well as an ally for any force, as you can take 2 russes and 2 fliers with no real "ally tax", as command russes are awesome. Without infantry of some kind, ABG will lose most games.

 -Loki- wrote:


Which, with the exception of a handful of units (really, you can count them on one hand), is the case for the rest of Forgeworlds range. The vast, vast majority are simply outdone by codex units.

The Tyranid stuff is fun in a non-competitive environment if you can get them to work though.

but hth fex are just as bad as normal hth fex and you dont have to buy a high cost book to use , same with the mines and that cuthulu trygon .
they do nothing codex units dont do , they dont change how the army can be played . Now If I could use those sabre sentry guns I would , they are awesome . cheap and make my aegis longer , technicly giving it more guns too . But no one is a going to let me make IG better .

Once you show up with a mechanized guard army that can take russes as troops and doesn't even need to bother with infantry, guess how long it's going to take before everyone is playing an armored company?

I dont think the problem is that every IG player would switch to Armored company . the problem is that armies right now are build to deal with 3 things . slogger , some av13+ stuff and flyers . no army other then IG and necron can deal well with all 3 at the same time . giving IG the possibility to take a 5-6 LR 6-9vendetta builds in non 2k points game , would not be liked by non IG players , because FW doesnt give them anything like that.. now if IG was a bad army , people would probably be more accepting , I mean as I said before I would like to use some IG units in my army or ally some stuff to help me with some match ups , but I have no idea how to force people to let me do it .

 Ailaros wrote:
Once you show up with a mechanized guard army that can take russes as troops and doesn't even need to bother with infantry, guess how long it's going to take before everyone is playing an armored company?

If they want to win, forever. I play Armored Battlegroup as my primary army, and it really isn't that amazing of a list. Just as an example, we can only have 6 squads of infantry as troops and they're just fragile PISs in Chimeras. They won't live to see the morning, and if a player takes them, then he can't have terribly many Russes. And our veterans gain Tank Hunters but also cost an extra 50% in points for no increase in durability.

Our scoring units die like flies - if you really want to win games, Codex Guard does it 100000% better.

Pitching FW to a player is all about demographics.

Look for a Space Marine player who is tired of getting beaten by flyers. Then show him the Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought.

If a Sisters of Battle player is tired of having to choose between Rhinos and Immolators, show them the Repressor.

And so on and so forth.

Makumba wrote:
but hth fex are just as bad as normal hth fex and you dont have to buy a high cost book to use , same with the mines and that cuthulu trygon .
they do nothing codex units dont do , they dont change how the army can be played .

Meiotic spores are basically super spore mines. So yeah, they kind of do the same thing spore mines do, just a lot bigger.
The Stone Crusher actually does do things the codex Carnifex doesn't - it gives you a 2+ save monstrous creature (even the codex itself only has access to 2, one of those an upgraded Hive Tyrant), and also gives it better Regeneration (letting you reroll 1's), and is great at knocking down Fortifications (handy in 6th).
The Malanthrope is another cheapish Synapse base, which is always handy, that hands out Preferred Enemy when it kills things. So there's something that's pretty rare outside of super expensive HQ's in the codex.

Also, as I said multiple times - they're not very 'competitive' units. If you're trying to be competitive, Forgeworld isn't for you, regardless of race, outside of a handful of units.

Also regarding Tyranids, I don't know why Forgeworld simply doesn't just make the Heirodules standard 40k units now. Their stats and abilities are actually a bit worse than the Tyrannofex, Trygon and Tervigon, while having models of comparable size as well. Open them up to standard 40k and give Tyranid players another couple of big gribblies to play with outside of Apocalypse.

Makumba wrote:
Now If I could use those sabre sentry guns I would , they are awesome . cheap and make my aegis longer , technicly giving it more guns too . But no one is a going to let me make IG better .

Those sentry guns are also taking up FoC slots better served by other units in the IG codex. IG is one of the best served armies in terms of quantity of units, but they simply don't stakc up to the standout units in the codex.

This is the cheif aspect of Forgeworld most detractors simply don't get - outside of about 5 units in all of Forgeworlds range, they just aren't worth the points or FoC slots your using up with them compared to codex units. And even those 5 or so units are closer to 'worth their points' than broken, though the Caestus has legitimate issues.

Compare that to studio material, there you wouldn't be shocked to see 5 units in a single codex being broken compared to its points.

As someone who is not too keen on the whole FW units thing, I'll be more than happy to add what would personally get me to be more inclined to accept playing against FW.

MrMoustaffa wrote:1. I need the physical book (obviously) and need to be completely transparent and allow them to look through it whenever they wish.

This x 1000. I would go as far to say to also be there to explain much of the newer stuff, especially things that are radically different from the standard IG Codex. I would make sure to go over every special new rule you intend to play with to make sure that both you and your opponents understand how it works and possibly interacts with other rules if there is any sort of issue/conflict/whatever. I'm not suggesting that you necessarily divulge what your specific tactics with those units are going to be, but make it understood how they work and what they are capable of in the best possible scenario. Example, if you have something similar to the Blendernaught(TM), make sure you and your opponents understand fully that the extra attacks generated can possibly generate further extra attacks, and with good rolling in the best of cases could theoretically mulch an entire 50 man blob in one go. (Not that there is anything like that necessarily in FW, but just as an example of making sure rules are clear beforehand) This would also help with any issues of crying foul prior to the game even being played. To that end, I'd even take a few hours, or even a whole day to go over with your opponents/other players the FW stuff you would like to add to your casual games, or if not that long, at least until all parties are satisfied that there are "no surprises".

MrMoustaffa wrote:2. Not taking the crazy stuff for a while, simply to keep from leaving a bad taste in people's mouths. Things like sabre platforms, vultures (as much as that pains me to not take them), and the artillery platforms would be saved for the more "competitive" games, or tournaments.

Although this can be a good idea, I would still take the time as mentioned above to go over with your opponents what each of those units are, what they can do, what their special rules are and how they work, and if possible, compare them to an already existing unit that they are more familiar with and how it compares and contrasts. For example, you could explain that Sabre Platforms are like a Quad Gun Emplacement except that it costs more points, blah blah blah. Or that Vultures are like Valkyries that cost more points, can't transport units, and can shoot slightly more. Or that Artillery Platforms are like Basilisks that are slightly cheaper but can't ever move. (Disclaimer: the preceding three sentences aren't necessarily true at all, but are just used as examples of what one could do to explain them. I have no idea of the actual stats of these units are.) You get the idea. By comparing the FW unit to something that is already well known, or at least more well known than the FW unit, you can help mitigate the feelings of OP-ness that comes from the scary, unknown FW unit with all its new special rules that will totally annihilate on the TT.

MrMoustaffa wrote:3. Having everything painted up to show that I put the work in to make a dedicated list. For example, if I'm running a commissar tank, it better have a Commissar leaning out of the top and be painted like a commissar tank would be.

Although not a deal breaker for me, it does show the effort that you are willing to go through to play with your cool new toys to the extent that I may not want to play against the FW rules, but I would give you a game just for the effort that you have put into making your stuff look really good.

MrMoustaffa wrote:4. Encourage them to try FW units as well. Since most likely they won't have them right off the bat, allow them to proxy whatever they wanted to use. After all, if I want to use it, they should be able to as well.

I would tread lightly here, at least at first. I would let them know that they are certainly able to take FW units in games against you, but don't come across like you are trying to push FW units. For many people, although the price gap is decreasing or even is in FW's favor, the cost of FW models is a turn off to people. If you do manage to get more people willing to accept FW, I wouldn't seek to hold them to the same standards that you hold for yourself in introducing FW. Let them proxy at first or run test game with them before they feel obligated to drop $$$ on something they may not be able to play with outside of yourself or a small group if your community does not wholeheartedly accept FW. Although I may not agree with wanting to play with FW units, I wish you good luck in your endeavor.

I can't take the argument that Forge World is too expensive seriously.

If you think that $105 for a Forge World landraider is way out of your price range, then you probably also think a $70 Landraider from GW is out of your price range.

If you can still afford GW, you can afford Forge World.


Now I can understand complaints about prices in general, but you can't complain about Forge Worlds prices and compare them to GW. They are almost to the point where they are comperable.

You are paying a little bit extra for high quality resin models, which with GWs models already being excellent quality is saying something. There are also rules for some of the models that can only be aquired from Forge World.


Most of the vehicles in the IG codex were Forge World vehicles at one time. It used to be that Hydras, Manticores, Deathstrikes, Valks and Vendettas, and all LRBT varients except the regular and the Demolisher were Forge World.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Now I can understand complaints about prices in general, but you can't complain about Forge Worlds prices and compare them to GW. They are almost to the point where they are comperable.

In some countries, it's cheaper

I can buy a complete Stone Crusher kit, which has the Carnifex kit and the resin Stone Crusher parts, for less than a Carnifex at a GW store.

Grey Templar wrote:I can't take the argument that Forge World is too expensive seriously.

If you think that $105 for a Forge World landraider is way out of your price range, then you probably also think a $70 Landraider from GW is out of your price range.

If you can still afford GW, you can afford Forge World.


Now I can understand complaints about prices in general, but you can't complain about Forge Worlds prices and compare them to GW. They are almost to the point where they are comperable.

You are paying a little bit extra for high quality resin models, which with GWs models already being excellent quality is saying something. There are also rules for some of the models that can only be aquired from Forge World.

I never said that FW's pricing is too much for me. I do personally think that $105 or even $70 is too much for a Land Raider, especially when I purchased mine for $50 more than a year ago. But it is not the price that is stopping me, I simply don't need five Land Raiders (yet). I did acknowledge that fact:

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:...although the price gap is decreasing or even is in FW's favor...

It is a valid point that some people see FW's prices and balk even more so than at GW's prices. Now think about how one would feel about paying $100+ for a model that people don't want to play against. I know that if I spent that money on something that people are saying they don't want to play with because it is a FW unit, that I would be just a bit jaded from the whole FW experience. It is certainly not my main point about why people do or do not accept FW. I am acknowledging that it is an issue to address and overcome if the OP wants to address FW acceptance with those who aren't familiar with FW.

Grey Templar wrote:Most of the vehicles in the IG codex were Forge World vehicles at one time. It used to be that Hydras, Manticores, Deathstrikes, Valks and Vendettas, and all LRBT varients except the regular and the Demolisher were Forge World.

Not that this is really relevant as to what has been historically FW or not, but ask me what I use. Go ahead ask me. You will not find a single Hydra, Manticore, Deathstrike, Valkyrie or Vendetta at all in any of my models. Nor will you find a variant LRBT that isn't just the "vanilla" Russ or Demolisher. Again not really relevant.

With all the people shopping online for discounts and ebay for second hand, using direct sales cost for a Land Raider is kind of disingenuous.

I understand your point - really - but if you're comparing prices you should use the average 20% discount a shopper would see online - and the fact that FW shipping is going to be higher 90% of the time.

rigeld2 wrote:
With all the people shopping online for discounts and ebay for second hand, using direct sales cost for a Land Raider is kind of disingenuous.

I understand your point - really - but if you're comparing prices you should use the average 20% discount a shopper would see online - and the fact that FW shipping is going to be higher 90% of the time.

Forge World charges 15% of your order for shipping outside the UK. However, Orders of over 250 Pounds get free shipping. It doesn't take much to get to 250. a couple buddies combining their order will easily meet it.

So it is also disingenious to say FW shipping is more expensive.

And not everyone buys online, dispite it being silly easy. But there can be other circumstances. The discount supplier may not ship to your area, they may be out of stock, etc...

rigeld2 wrote:
With all the people shopping online for discounts and ebay for second hand, using direct sales cost for a Land Raider is kind of disingenuous.

Those people will also go on ebay and find discounted Forgeworld products, which isn't hard (though opens up the whole counterfeit issue). Since online priced vary quite a bit, the easiest way to compare prices is RRP of each product.

 Grey Templar wrote:
So it is also disingenious to say FW shipping is more expensive.

Fair enough - having never been interested with ordering from FW I've never known that.

And not everyone buys online, dispite it being silly easy. But there can be other circumstances. The discount supplier may not ship to your area, they may be out of stock, etc...

You act like there's only one discount supplier. There's likely hundreds of places an individual could get a discount Land Raider from NIB.
There's one place to get a NIB Achilles from. And they don't discount.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
With all the people shopping online for discounts and ebay for second hand, using direct sales cost for a Land Raider is kind of disingenuous.

Those people will also go on ebay and find discounted Forgeworld products, which isn't hard (though opens up the whole counterfeit issue). Since online priced vary quite a bit, the easiest way to compare prices is RRP of each product.

The second hand market is flooded with FW recasts. Assuming one wanted to avoid all of that, it's best to buy new.

 -Loki- wrote:
I can buy a complete Stone Crusher kit, which has the Carnifex kit and the resin Stone Crusher parts, for less than a Carnifex at a GW store.

Don't know for how much longer though. Got the latest FW catalogue with IA1Vol2 and the Aeronautica book. Every thing in there has four prices - UK£, $US, the Euro and "A$", which I can only assume means Australia dollar - and yes, the A$ price is always higher (eg. Contemptor Dread US$50, A$54). So they may be about to do a redesign of their site so that prices are different based on region, and we end up paying more than everyone else for no reason (and still pay the +15% shipping, no doubt). I hope I'm wrong, but this catalogue scares me...

reaper with no name wrote:
Pitching FW to a player is all about demographics.

Look for a Space Marine player who is tired of getting beaten by flyers. Then show him the Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought.

If a Sisters of Battle player is tired of having to choose between Rhinos and Immolators, show them the Repressor.

And so on and so forth.

but in the 6th you can take armored company and ally in troops from other armies. for example some normal IG or two squads of GH with a RP.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
I can buy a complete Stone Crusher kit, which has the Carnifex kit and the resin Stone Crusher parts, for less than a Carnifex at a GW store.

Don't know for how much longer though. Got the latest FW catalogue with IA1Vol2 and the Aeronautica book. Every thing in there has four prices - UK£, $US, the Euro and "A$", which I can only assume means Australia dollar - and yes, the A$ price is always higher (eg. Contemptor Dread US$50, A$54). So they may be about to do a redesign of their site so that prices are different based on region, and we end up paying more than everyone else for no reason (and still pay the +15% shipping, no doubt). I hope I'm wrong, but this catalogue scares me...

That does it. Now I am definitly starting my Aussie-US plasticrack smuggling operation.

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
With all the people shopping online for discounts and ebay for second hand, using direct sales cost for a Land Raider is kind of disingenuous.

Those people will also go on ebay and find discounted Forgeworld products, which isn't hard (though opens up the whole counterfeit issue). Since online priced vary quite a bit, the easiest way to compare prices is RRP of each product.

The second hand market is flooded with FW recasts. Assuming one wanted to avoid all of that, it's best to buy new.

It's flooded with GW recasts as well - it's very easy to get duped into buying primed or poorly painted models, only to strip them and find they're resin. Saying that the risk is only there for FW second hand purchases is a bit disingenuous.

 Kaldor wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
just showing up with an auto-win army and then demanding to be played that's tfg.

This is true.

However, it's dishonest to insist that FW fall into the auto-win category.

Completely missing my point again.

Saying "Is it cool if I bring along my Spartan tank next week? You can check out the rules for it online" is one thing.

Casually placing it on the table during deployment is quite another.

You should be able to tell the difference between something unknown breaking the meta, and telling someone about something, thereby making it part of the meta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Most of the vehicles in the IG codex were Forge World vehicles at one time. It used to be that Hydras, Manticores, Deathstrikes, Valks and Vendettas, and all LRBT varients except the regular and the Demolisher were Forge World.

Hydras are still Forge World exclusive.

 BryllCream wrote:

Saying "Is it cool if I bring along my Spartan tank next week? You can check out the rules for it online" is one thing.

Casually placing it on the table during deployment is quite another.

I know. I feel the same way about Long Fangs. Some guys just bring them along and don't even bother to ask first! What jerks! And don't even get me started on Necron Fliers, talk about OP! Opponents permission only for those suckers.

 Kaldor wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

Saying "Is it cool if I bring along my Spartan tank next week? You can check out the rules for it online" is one thing.

Casually placing it on the table during deployment is quite another.

I know. I feel the same way about Long Fangs. Some guys just bring them along and don't even bother to ask first! What jerks! And don't even get me started on Necron Fliers, talk about OP! Opponents permission only for those suckers.

So you weren't aware of the existance of Space Wolf or Necron codexes?

That's your loss.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

Saying "Is it cool if I bring along my Spartan tank next week? You can check out the rules for it online" is one thing.

Casually placing it on the table during deployment is quite another.

I know. I feel the same way about Long Fangs. Some guys just bring them along and don't even bother to ask first! What jerks! And don't even get me started on Necron Fliers, talk about OP! Opponents permission only for those suckers.

So you weren't aware of the existance of Space Wolf or Necron codexes?

That's your loss.

Oh, so that's how it is? You weren't aware of it, so your loss?

Same goes for FW units, buddy.

 Kaldor wrote:

Oh, so that's how it is? You weren't aware of it, so your loss?

Same goes for FW units, buddy.

That's brilliant. Genuinely an amazing post.

Thankyou.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

Oh, so that's how it is? You weren't aware of it, so your loss?

Same goes for FW units, buddy.

That's brilliant. Genuinely an amazing post.

Thankyou.

Anytime.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

Oh, so that's how it is? You weren't aware of it, so your loss?

Same goes for FW units, buddy.

That's brilliant. Genuinely an amazing post.

Thankyou.

It was exactly the same statement you made, but when somebody else makes it it's a bad statement?

 Still Standing wrote:

It was exactly the same statement you made, but when somebody else makes it it's a bad statement?

I was suggesting that the notion of having never heard of Space Wolves or Necrons was absurd, wheras the average 40k player has probably heard of Forgeworld, but probably couldn't tell you any of their models, let alone the rules.

I don't have to tell my opponent that I'll be running Leman Russes next week because he knows I play guard and he knows, even if only vaguely, what that entails.

If I show up one week with something he's never heard of with a half a dozen rules he has no idea about, he has every right to refuse to play me.

 BryllCream wrote:

If I show up one week with something he's never heard of with a half a dozen rules he has no idea about, he has every right to refuse to play me.

Suppose he plays SoB then?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

If I show up one week with something he's never heard of with a half a dozen rules he has no idea about, he has every right to refuse to play me.

Suppose he plays SoB then?

I play Sisters. I've never had a hard time getting somebody to play me, despite the fact that most people have no idea what my rules are. Nor have I ever had trouble getting a game with my Krieg (using the regular Krieg list).

I have never played a game against the new Necrons (I actually haven't, not a made up example for the purposes of winning the interwebs). I do not know what most of the new units do. Should I refuse to play a Necron player, or should I do the more reasonable thing and expand my hobby horizons?

 BryllCream wrote:
If I show up one week with something he's never heard of with a half a dozen rules he has no idea about, he has every right to refuse to play me.

That must make it tough when you play newly released codexes, or even just ones not familiar to you. I mean, how dare people include official standard units, in their lists without running it by you first! The audacity!

I certainly agree that when playing new or unfamiliar units, a good player takes the time to explain exactly what a unit does and provides the rules if his opponent is at all unclear. But the idea that my opponent should have some right of veto over my army, just because the units are unfamiliar is ridiculous. I certainly didn't ask permission before running my Dreadknight and Paladins for the first time, and nor will I when I get my Blight Drones for my Nurgle army.