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 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Considering your other thread about DA Land Raider spam, this list would be possible with most other codexes as well.

Though what makes it viable in DA is that they can give their raiders a constant +4 invul and salvo bolters, others codex can't.

 Tomb King wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Considering your other thread about DA Land Raider spam, this list would be possible with most other codexes as well.

With the difference being dark angels can give them a 4+ invul saves and make the hurricane bolters salvo 4 per bolter aka 24 shots at range per land raider.

Had a good smile at this one.

I'm inspired to run a 3 LR list all venerable to try this out. Also love the thought of running a cheap Techmarine + servitors for repairs with them. For me 1 unit of DWK in a LR and the rest Tacticals rather than terms I feel is worth running.

A good Tac Ravinwing army played well should do well against you list. I would have at min 4 full squads of Ravinwing attack bikes in my tac list with each squad having 2 melta guns and and an attack bike with multi-melta. that would be plenty to take out 4 landraiders. And take out any thing with armour save.

 starraptor wrote:
A good Tac Ravinwing army played well should do well against you list. I would have at min 4 full squads of Ravinwing attack bikes in my tac list with each squad having 2 melta guns and and an attack bike with multi-melta. that would be plenty to take out 4 landraiders. And take out any thing with armour save.

The melta's have to get close to be effective. The bolters alone would kill 10 bikes a turn. The assault cannons another 5 and the multi-melta's another 3. That is 500 of your points in one shooting phase. This isnt taking into the account you rolling awesome or poorly.

this list does look pretty tough dont get me wrong, but any standard de venom spam list will counter it really hard, and venom spam is the most prevalent army you'll see from dark eldar in tourneys and such. any standard venoms list will be packing usually around 21-24 dark lances not including the fact that they'll probably have a squad or two of haywire wyches which can strip a landraider of its hp in one turn easy, and then the units inside will be facing 108 poisoned shots from the venoms alone. So if you use it at a tourney just pray that you never have to face a dark eldar player, otherwise im sure you'll be fine.

this list does look pretty tough dont get me wrong, but any standard de venom spam list will counter it really hard, and venom spam is the most prevalent army you'll see from dark eldar in tourneys and such. any standard venoms list will be packing usually around 21-24 dark lances not including the fact that they'll probably have a squad or two of haywire wyches which can strip a landraider of its hp in one turn easy, and then the units inside will be facing 108 poisoned shots from the venoms alone. So if you use it at a tourney just pray that you never have to face a dark eldar player, otherwise im sure you'll be fine.

Dark Eldar Venom spam is played in tourneys still? That's news to me. I haven't seen it in 6th. As a Dark Eldar player in 5th, I can tell you that the list stopped working once GK came out.

flaming tadpole wrote:
this list does look pretty tough dont get me wrong, but any standard de venom spam list will counter it really hard, and venom spam is the most prevalent army you'll see from dark eldar in tourneys and such. any standard venoms list will be packing usually around 21-24 dark lances not including the fact that they'll probably have a squad or two of haywire wyches which can strip a landraider of its hp in one turn easy, and then the units inside will be facing 108 poisoned shots from the venoms alone. So if you use it at a tourney just pray that you never have to face a dark eldar player, otherwise im sure you'll be fine.

Unless your running night shrouds the venoms only have 2 HP. Just hope the land raiders dont go first. 96TL S4 shots add up fast. I took down 3 landspeeders with a single tactical squad with glances.

TK,

How would you scale your list up to 1999+1 points?

edit: one option I was toying with was removing the terminators plus their dedicated landraider, and adding two more tac squads. Then give twin lascannon razorbacks to all 4 tac squads. I think it would help get some long range anti tank into the list.

Might as wall hover some Dark Talons to boost your massIve hurricane bolter fire with the dev banner.

I think it is a very hard list for many armies. 6th does seem to produce a lot of hard counters, venom spam and this list I see whatever goes first wins.
I do think a couple of IG builds can counter this as could a couple Tau builds and ironically several DA builds.

Agreed. I don't think you're playing against the greatest tests lists. It will be insanely difficult for many. It will be doable for any mech army packing 4 melta units. This used to be super common 5th. Now we have to make sacrifices in AT to handle AI. Don't act like 4 assault cannons and 4 multi meltas is a lot of anti tank though. Most of the time it will be enough, but it is not a lot. That 4++ invul is just annoying as hell though. 90% of what GW puts out is quite balanced. It's the 10% that we all look for to abuse the crap out of hahaha. This is definitely part of the 10%.

 EOD Tech wrote:
TK,

How would you scale your list up to 1999+1 points?

edit: one option I was toying with was removing the terminators plus their dedicated landraider, and adding two more tac squads. Then give twin lascannon razorbacks to all 4 tac squads. I think it would help get some long range anti tank into the list.

There are several options and it will vary depending on your meta.

One valid scale up would be.
Drop librarian -95pts
Drop Deathwing landraider -295pts
Drop Deathwing Terminators -220pts
Total available now: 390 + 220 + 150 = 760pts


Belial TH/SH 190pts
Pick up techmarine w/ shield generator 80pts
5 Deathwing Terminators with CML 245pts
5 Deathwing Terminators with CML 245pts
Total: 2000pts

Or

Keep librarian 95pts
10 tacticals w/ FLak Missle upgrade 165pts
10 tacticals w/ FLak Missle upgrade 165pts
10 tacticals w/ FLak Missle upgrade 165pts
ADL Quadgun 100pts
Add Flak missles upgrade missle launchers 2 both tactical squads already in list 50pts
Total 1990pts
10 pts left over for whatever you want.

Have you gone up against Fate Weaver demon lists running 27 Screamers of Tzeentch yet? they will gnaw through those raiders with their "Lamprey Bite" attacks in about 2 turns. My friend Nick won NOVA 2011 and placed second in NOVA 2012 invitational, both times with Demon lists. I bet any competative Demon lists spamming Fateweaver with screamers, flamers, and flying monstrous demons princes will give you a lot of trouble even with powerfield generator 4++.

And this critique is coming from a fellow DA player. But other than that, I like the list.

Hey Tom! Yeah, this list is nasty but does have issues with fate weaver daemons. However, if this list wanted to, it could add anti daemon counters in the form of a null zone Libby battle brother when scaling up to 2000. It could also trade the deathwing raider for an allied presence without adding points, changing it from a land raider spam army to a balanced 3 land raider army, with da tacticals behind an aegis with quad gun and allied null zone to crush daemons, and a thunder fire for anti cover attacks.
Balanced Da bolter banner armies have an advantage here because nick must close to within firing range to hurt the da, meaning besides flyover attacks on screamers or suicide flamers the da always get the first shots. Los blocking terrain being present in large blocks is nicks best chance, as he must get the first strike to succeed.

DevianID wrote:
Hey Tom! Yeah, this list is nasty but does have issues with fate weaver daemons. However, if this list wanted to, it could add anti daemon counters in the form of a null zone Libby battle brother when scaling up to 2000. It could also trade the deathwing raider for an allied presence without adding points, changing it from a land raider spam army to a balanced 3 land raider army, with da tacticals behind an aegis with quad gun and allied null zone to crush daemons, and a thunder fire for anti cover attacks.
Balanced Da bolter banner armies have an advantage here because nick must close to within firing range to hurt the da, meaning besides flyover attacks on screamers or suicide flamers the da always get the first shots. Los blocking terrain being present in large blocks is nicks best chance, as he must get the first strike to succeed.

Hey dude! Yah, the allied Space Marine Libby with Nullzone power is something I haven't thought of. Points well taken sir.

Another unit that could counter Deamons more head on could be (In the current list) Dropping the Termies for an Allied squad of GK Strike Marines in a LR with one of their HQ's that have those crazy Grenades (Its been a while since I've played).

I don't have the models with me to try it but that would create a 12" bubble around the raider that would cause Deep Striking units to Mishap. Again, I'm not sure if this would work due to the pure size of the land raiders. But I figured I'd chime in and say it.

Regardless I love the list, I've always thought Land Raider lists were awesome, and with a 4++ save it makes it that much better.

EDIT: They would not benefit from the 4++ since they aren't Battle Brothers, so this idea may be null. Unless you want to give them a Librarian with shrouding then throw them behind the lead LR. I'm not sure how you were going to put them into formation with all of them having the ability to fire with full effect, so it may not matter. Just an idea.

I wonder how my list would do against this one:

Hive Tyrant /w Wings, 2 TL Devourers, and Hive Commander
Hive Tyrant /w Wings, 2 TL Devourers, and Old Adversary

Tervigon w/ Catalyst and TS
Tervigon w/ Catalyst and TS
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
10 Termagants

1 Doom of Malan'tai in Pod
2 Zoanthropes
2 Zoanthropes

Carnifex with TL Devourers in Pod
Carnifex with TL Devourers in Pod

Skyshield Landing Pad

 Tomb King wrote:

 starraptor wrote:
A good Tac Ravinwing army played well should do well against you list. I would have at min 4 full squads of Ravinwing attack bikes in my tac list with each squad having 2 melta guns and and an attack bike with multi-melta. that would be plenty to take out 4 landraiders. And take out any thing with armour save.

The melta's have to get close to be effective. The bolters alone would kill 10 bikes a turn. The assault cannons another 5 and the multi-melta's another 3. That is 500 of your points in one shooting phase. This isnt taking into the account you rolling awesome or poorly.

So basicicly your answer to everything is your invincible, good luck with that.

Well, it wouldn't be a true TAC list but if I'd drop all Lootas and Rokkit Deffkoptas, and keep Wazz and Bikerboss with an all Bike list and NobBikers, I'd be able to take out at least 2 LR's if you didn't disembark the Termies. Then, you'd more than likely win anyways.

I'd still lose but I'd dent it at least.

revackey wrote:Another unit that could counter Deamons more head on could be (In the current list) Dropping the Termies for an Allied squad of GK Strike Marines in a LR with one of their HQ's that have those crazy Grenades (Its been a while since I've played).

I don't have the models with me to try it but that would create a 12" bubble around the raider that would cause Deep Striking units to Mishap. Again, I'm not sure if this would work due to the pure size of the land raiders. But I figured I'd chime in and say it.

Regardless I love the list, I've always thought Land Raider lists were awesome, and with a 4++ save it makes it that much better.

EDIT: They would not benefit from the 4++ since they aren't Battle Brothers, so this idea may be null. Unless you want to give them a Librarian with shrouding then throw them behind the lead LR. I'm not sure how you were going to put them into formation with all of them having the ability to fire with full effect, so it may not matter. Just an idea.

They dont have to be battle brothers to benefit from the 4++ all models friend or enemy within 3" get the invul save.

starraptor wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 starraptor wrote:
A good Tac Ravinwing army played well should do well against you list. I would have at min 4 full squads of Ravinwing attack bikes in my tac list with each squad having 2 melta guns and and an attack bike with multi-melta. that would be plenty to take out 4 landraiders. And take out any thing with armour save.

The melta's have to get close to be effective. The bolters alone would kill 10 bikes a turn. The assault cannons another 5 and the multi-melta's another 3. That is 500 of your points in one shooting phase. This isnt taking into the account you rolling awesome or poorly.

So basicicly your answer to everything is your invincible, good luck with that.

No, they are definitely not invincible by any means of the imagination but neither is it a push over list like some people seem to suggest. I have yet to lose with it in all the matchs and it has taken on some of the builds that have been suggested as ones that would slaughter it without a fight. Here I will give you a little scenario just for kicks to help draw the picture. Obviously put in a vacuum here. What TAC build would you take against this list that is also built for the current meta? You have first turn DoW. 3 objectives 2 on your side and one centrally located. After deciding your build what would be ur first turn moves and actions. Be sure to include the strength and AP of what you are shooting and I we will math hammer out your chances of success and then I would let you know my counter action. So in a vacuum your turn 1 good sir.

Allies of convenience are treated as enemy models... Pretty sure that's damn near a quote. So I really can't see that working out. Battle brothers sure. Anything else no. That is my impression anyways??

Living Still wrote:
Allies of convenience are treated as enemy models... Pretty sure that's damn near a quote. So I really can't see that working out. Battle brothers sure. Anything else no. That is my impression anyways??

Even enemy models get the invulnerable save from the Power Field.

Haha, that's a lot of hate going towards your list. Good sign!

It's already been said...rock/paper/scissors match-up, the list is by no means unbeatable, etc. In any case, I think it would be pretty neat to play against with a TAC list.

There is one thing to keep in mind while calculating everything. Due to the size of the land raiders, at least one Land Raider will not be getting the 4++ OR at least one Land Raider will not be able to shoot with all its guns. Unless I'm missing something?

I haven't put much thought into it, but what do you think of this?

Your librarian (warlord) is slightly more survivable with a 2+. You have 3 scoring units without combat squads. More importantly, all of this comes to only 1680 points. You still have a whopping 170 points left to do whatever you want.

How would my RTT list fare against yours:

2x Destructor Lords w/ weave

2x 10 Immortals w/ Night Scythe

10 Warriors w/ Night Scythe

3x 5 Wraiths

3x Annihilation Barge

Basically, only my Lords, the Wraiths and the Warriors can do some damage to your Land Raiders. I thought about dropping one DLord and adding an Overlord and a Stormtek.

I'd play very aggressively to reach your LR's asap with my Wraiths and the Dlords.

definitely looks solid you may find neither the banner nor the powerfield will work outside the landraider they are in when the full faq comes out.

I run 4 stormteks in my necrons. but this would cause me problems. If you're taking landraiders this is the way to do it. Deathray causes you problems as you're gifting him 3 hits per turn.

MC spam nids could cause you problems but your bolters should do 3.55 wounds a turn to nid mcs assuming 72 shots. plus the other weapons you should kill an MC and a half a turn. Then to terminators can counter charge one. So realistically the nids are going to need 5+ MCs to cause you a real problem.

I have to question these games you keep reffering to. You said you beat a solid DE player, yet you said he had 3 voidravens, which, are not ideal in the slightest. You then acted like NS were not standard, which they are against any good DE player in 6th. Literally NS alone counter your list almost completely.

I think the most damning knock against your list is the new BRB FAQ that only lets you allocate wounds up to your highest ranged weapon. Meaning against a good fast army like ravenwing, you probably are not going to kill 10 bikes a turn because your range and LOS around your own tanks sucks.

Really would like to see the lists you have played against rather then, "I've beaten everyone I have played," sort of claims. Because there are people in my local meta that I have literally let take an extra turn just to make the game closer, I assume they exist near you as well.

I don't see how night shields autobeat this list. They get you the alphastrike but since your weapons are short ranged in the most part unless you're giving up against flyer armies i don't see how that guarantees victory? You could tailor to beat this list by raider ravaged spam with ns but even then how lo.g can you stay out of range. The best bet would be 6 haywire wyche squads in venoms. But that is pretty pants against everything else.

 Tomb King wrote:

No, they are definitely not invincible by any means of the imagination but neither is it a push over list like some people seem to suggest. I have yet to lose with it in all the matchs and it has taken on some of the builds that have been suggested as ones that would slaughter it without a fight. Here I will give you a little scenario just for kicks to help draw the picture. Obviously put in a vacuum here. What TAC build would you take against this list that is also built for the current meta? You have first turn DoW. 3 objectives 2 on your side and one centrally located. After deciding your build what would be ur first turn moves and actions. Be sure to include the strength and AP of what you are shooting and I we will math hammer out your chances of success and then I would let you know my counter action. So in a vacuum your turn 1 good sir.

Mek with KFF and powerclaw
Warboss with mega armour

8 mega armour nobs
10 grots
10 grots
17 Shootaboyz with powerclawnob
20 shootaboyz with powerclawnob
20 shootaboyz with powerclawnob

5 loota's
5 loota's
5 loota's

Battlewagon with deffrolla, extra armour, paintjob and big shoota
Battlewagon with deffrolla, extra armour, paintjob and big shoota
Battlewagon with deffrolla, extra armour, paintjob and big shoota
Battlewagon with deffrolla, extra armour, paintjob and big shoota (dedicated transport nobs)

I think these battlewagons will "roll" over your landraiders at sum point or get a few charging powerclaws with S9 or S10. Loota's are in their to make it more of a TAC list.

Its a tough list though...

At 1850 points I have 2 Vindicators, 3 Broadside suits (in a Bastion), and Null Zone, and that's before we even look at melta weapons. The Land Raiders will have to be in a tight formation which will potentially allow multiple hits from one Vindicator. Overall, this style of army does not impress me much.

That said I think it will certainly win most of its games, because the metagame is currently unstable enough that most people don't seem to have anything even close to balanced armies in this edition.

I'm just curious if the standards were meant to work for vehicles and if hurricane bolters count as regular boltguns. Also how do the other Land Raiders see the standard lol. If you never disembark them then you don't even really need to have a model with the standard in the first place. Just say you have it inside the indestructable LR lol.

Side note: If i brought this list to my game store no one would play me... Nice job Tomb King