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 Tangent wrote:
Actually, I think I'm drawn more to Cryx and Everblight now that I've have a chance to look at more of the models. Circle, also. Skorne, not so much - though, to be honest, that might just be the paint scheme. It's a little too bright for my tastes on the PP site, and a darker, more menacing paint scheme might fit the bill better for me.

Go Everblight then. Cryx is mostly an infantry faction and defiantly won't fulfill your want for big hulking things. Legion beasts aren't universally bruisers but you certainly get a lot more use out of them than you do Cryx 'Jacks.

Excellent, sounds like a plan!

This has been a very informative thread! Is the two player starter box a good deal? Are the two armies that come in the box good to learn with and marketable for trades? Thanks!

Yes, all the battleboxes and starter sets have good starter options for the different armies. Some are better than others but they are all excellent values.

Depends on which army you want and if you want a rulebook or not.


If you have a buddy that wants the other half of the 2 player set, get it. Otherwise pick your faction.

The 2 player sets have more models for the faction than the battlegroup boxes.


For example the Hordes 2 player set.

Legion gets a unit of Warspears, which don't come in the Battlegroup box(which has Lylyth, the Carnivean, and 4 shredders)

Circle change one of the Argus into a Winter Argus and add Skinwalkers over their Battlebox.


So the 2 player sets are definitly a better value. you get more models and a rulebook for basically the same cost as 2 seperate battlegroup boxes. Although you will need to share the rulebook.



As for trades, maybe. Most people started their collection with a battlegroup, so they will likely already have the Warlock/Warcaster in question plus the models. And Warmachine doesn't lend itself to spam except for a few specific units.

As a Menoth player, I already have 3 copies of pKreoss. I don't need a second Revenger, and I already have 2 Repenters. Only the Crusader is really going to see action in multiples due to its cheap nature(super cheap in Tier lists)

I don't like spam (I play it as a necessity lol, but secretly loathe it)... Hordes game seems to be more of a "only one of these guys showed up for the battle" kind of games... Are the rules clear or are they open for interpretation like the GW rules? I am working on getting some guys from my gaming group to play something else every once in a while... It seems like a decent army can be built for about $100 plus the cost of the rule books. I see that the army sizes are 35-50 points, how long does a normal game take to play at that point level? Sorry for all the questions, as a 40K player, I am trying to expand my gaming horizons....

The rules are very clear, and they mean exactly what they say. The language is very specific too.


Something that tells you "Advance Towards" and "Advance Directly Towards" have very specific meanings.

The wording of spells and other abilities will have very specific language.


For example. The Harbinger of Menoth has a spell called Cataclysim. It is a spell that automatically hits an enemy model within its range. For every full inch between the caster and the target, the spell loses one point of strength.

While you can cast it through an Arc Node, the spell's strength reduction is still measured from the Harbinger and not the Jack with an Arc Node.


Some spells say "target friendly faction models gain XYZ"

This means they can only target models that are from the same faction. So you couldn't target a Mercenary unit for example.


It can be kinda surreal coming from a GW rule set to this one thats so clear and concise.



As for game length, a 35 point game can be done in an hour or so if you are familar with the rules. A 50 point game is around a 2 hour game.

Early on, your games will be much longer of course. Depending on how familiar you are with your army.

Is an army specific book a requirement to start playing? I skimmed through the link posted earlier in the thread and it seems that with the Stats on the cards (and a little youtube research) the game can be played out of the box. I must say, I really like the prepackaged army specific paint boxes! It is a very nice touch!

No, the faction book is completely optional as each model/unit comes with its stat card. All you need is the rule book.

The faction book is nice if you want fluff and also the stats of units you don't own(although purchasing the faction deck also gives you this)

Sounds like a very flexible, low cost game that doesn't require a small personal loan to get into! lol

Depends. Having a competitive collection with enough variety for tournament play is around the same cost as a competitive GW army.

And the models are definitly more expensive on an individual basis than similarly sized GW models, while being not nearly as detailed. Poseability and customization are also limited.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Depends. Having a competitive collection with enough variety for tournament play is around the same cost as a competitive GW army.

And the models are definitly more expensive on an individual basis than similarly sized GW models, while being not nearly as detailed. Poseability and customization are also limited.

Depends on the model, really. Warjacks are somewhat cheaper than dreadnoughts in cost, and solos are about the same across systems. The plastic jacks are also rather posable (at least in Khador), although I'll give you that the system definitely doesn't promote customization (although there are some incredible conversions out there still). Of course, given the new GW prices (holycrapWoC) Warmachine is suddenly about half the price... :(

And yeah, I'll definitely agree that once you get into the game it starts ramping up in cost simply because it's so easy to switch up armies due to the less granular point system and how Warcasters work in general. Of course, if you're a completionist for Warmachine you were probably a completionist for GW games too, so the fact that the range overall is smaller (for now) is rather helpful to constraining costs.

Yes, I am looking for a fun casual game since I tend to be a competitive SW player... It would be nice to just relax (or try to lol) and play a table game... I do think the minis for Hordes are very detailed for the size... Having yet to see them in person anyways... In all the pictures they seem to have a good scale about them... I also really into painting and GWs line (at least the 40K side) has left me wanting for more challenging beasts to paint...

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
Yes, I am looking for a fun casual game since I tend to be a competitive SW player... It would be nice to just relax (or try to lol) and play a table game... I do think the minis for Hordes are very detailed for the size... Having yet to see them in person anyways... In all the pictures they seem to have a good scale about them... I also really into painting and GWs line (at least the 40K side) has left me wanting for more challenging beasts to paint...

Be aware that the same tight rules set that makes the game very unambiguous in terms of how things resolve & interact isn't really conducive to the same level of "Casual" play that might be "Casual" in 40k. There really isn't any point where you can be lax about trying to milk to most out of all of your abilities, unless it's really new player vs new player who don't really know how to leverage these things. This isn't to say every game is a white-knuckle ride but there are really very few cases where you can say play in a way that amounts to "I move my dude-mans straight foward and attack" that you can sort of get out of 40k games. Some casters can get you close but you're always going to have be doing more thinking & active board state assessment than you would in most instances of 40k.

I've introduced a fair number of new players and even by their 2nd game I find a lot of people are trying out power attacks, jockeying for position and measuring their control area proactively.

Yeah, if you don't like competitive play Warmachine may not be for you.

Even a "casual" warmachine game can feel like a competitive 40k game because of how airtight the rules are.


This does mean the competitive scene is similar to the casual scene, and there is plenty of cross over.

Its an excellent game for competitive play(deliberatly so) and I reccomend all players play in tournaments. They're fun, largely due to the rules being quite clear that rule arguments are rare.

I totally agree (for once ^^) with the above couple of posts.

That is my current gripe with 40k is rules arguements... People interpreting rules and twisting them for advantage. I never realized that a giant board game could make grown men argue like children lol I don't mind a little friendly competition, I just don't like rules lawyering eating into my valuable play time.

I find rules discussions fun, till people start taking it personally.

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
That is my current gripe with 40k is rules arguements... People interpreting rules and twisting them for advantage. I never realized that a giant board game could make grown men argue like children lol I don't mind a little friendly competition, I just don't like rules lawyering eating into my valuable play time.

Well the game does have very strict resolutions so you're not going to find room for interpretation of any sort, short of the players simply not knowing the rules involved. However the rules are complex enough that these edge cases do come up and things won't be immediately clear without either looking it up in the book or another official source. If you're new and up against other new players it's reasonable to expect some level of "oh wait, how does this work." and pausing to get an answer.

Finally keep in mind sometimes things may be counter-intuitive at first glance and come off as "Rules Lawyer-y" to a new player (though that isn't really the best frame of mind to approach WM/H rules issues with):

For example:

In the game when a model has had enough damage done it such that it's going to die it goes through 3 distinct stages "Disabled"->"Boxed"->"Destroyed" these processes happen automatically and right after one another and aren't really "Visible" to player unless something triggers on them.

Some models have rules like "Berserk" which will trigger for them when they destroy a model. Berserk lets you make another attack if you destroyed an enemy model with a melee attack.

However some models may have a rule that when they become "Boxed" they do something and remove themselves from play, heal or otherwise never proceed to the "Destroyed" step. Protectorate of Menoth's Knights Exemplar Errants are a good example of this. They have an ability "Self Sacrifice" that when they become boxed they may choose another member of the unit to be boxed instead and they heal 1 point of damage (becoming no longer boxed and remaining on the table). The Errant that does this never proceeds destroyed and thus the model with berserk does not get to make an extra attack: This is because it never destroyed a model with an attack only "Disabled" and "Boxed" it. In addition even though the other errant will die, that was done be self-sacrifice not the attacker's melee attack.


As you can see the above case probably sounds a bit more complex than anything you've probably run into in 40k. If you don't fully wrap your head around it don't worry, it wasn't really my point to make you understand exactly what happens.

I think you can imagine maybe feeling a bit cheated the first time you run into something like this. I mean a model was taken off the table after you attacked, right? You should berserk! Would be many people's intuition, but it's wrong. You can also have multiple of these sorts of rules-that-override-other-rules in play at once. The end result can feel very much like you're getting hit by "Rules Lawyers" when really the game is just playing out how it was designed.

Chongara wrote:
Some models have rules like "Berserk" which will trigger for them when they destroy a model. Berserk forces you to make another melee attack if you destroyed a model with a melee attack.

Fix'd. There's a decent number of circumstances where you can actually make this work for you by preventing your guys from eating each other.

 Laughing Man wrote:

Chongara wrote:
Some models have rules like "Berserk" which will trigger for them when they destroy a model. Berserk forces you to make another melee attack if you destroyed a model with a melee attack.

Fix'd. There's a decent number of circumstances where you can actually make this work for you by preventing your guys from eating each other.

Indeed. This poster is very correct, berserk is non-optional. Which yet again is an example of something that frustrates new players "What do you mean I gotta hit my own guys?" and he's right there are a ways around that too. Still, it can be very frustrating to not have your abilities go off when you think they will. Especially due to a an element of the game that isn't on the board or a unit's card. Until you get used to it that is.

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
Yes, I am looking for a fun casual game since I tend to be a competitive SW player... It would be nice to just relax (or try to lol) and play a table game... I do think the minis for Hordes are very detailed for the size... Having yet to see them in person anyways... In all the pictures they seem to have a good scale about them... I also really into painting and GWs line (at least the 40K side) has left me wanting for more challenging beasts to paint...

bear in mind - Warmachine and Hordes might upset your preconceived worldview when it comes to things like "casual" and "competitive".

40k instills in you a belief that there are two equal, yet oppossing and utterly incompatible modes of gaming called "casual" gaming (or "fun" games, as its proponents loudly declare to the world) and "competitive" gaving (defined by cheese, beard, powergamers WAAC neckbeards, "thats OTT", "grey knights are broken!!!" etc etc).

What warmachine and hordes will teach you is this attitude comes from a very narrow, very scewed and very GW centric point of view. In the broader scale of things, the definitions as you might be used to them do not really hold.

By 40k standards, warmachine is cheese and beard on top of broken armies. (but its OK, because everything is broken. and when everything is broken, nothing is). But by warmachine standards, warmachine is a fast best, white knuckle ride that rewards risk, aggression, and "going for it", all of which are traits that are frowned on at best within large segments of the 40k community (i stress some, not all). Warmachine will do things to you. Its weird, but the style of play warmachine encouraged in me as a gamer made it easier for me to be more assertive in real life. the "go for it" attitude translated easily to other sports i've picked up over the last few years that have really pushed me physically and mentally (and all for the better).

Having a competitive drive to be all you can be, to do your best and to give it your all is a good thing. Warmachine seems to encourage this, whilst i find with 40k, there is almost this meme that i shouldnt try to win, that winning, somehow is wrong, and that if i do happen to win, i am almost obliged to apologise to my opponent for being a competitive cheesy git when he only turned up for a casual "fun" game.

OK, i exaggerate a bit liberally for entertainment purposes only, but please, if you're coming to warmachine and hordes, just be willing to rethink your stance on casual and competitive gaming.

Are the gargantuans allowed during regular play? I am noticing at 50 points they are able to be taken.... Is this something I should ask my opponent first? I just spotted the gargantuans and collosals.... they are pretty cool....

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
Are the gargantuans allowed during regular play? I am noticing at 50 points they are able to be taken.... Is this something I should ask my opponent first? I just spotted the gargantuans and collosals.... they are pretty cool....

Everything is always able to be taken.

There are no points level minimum to field any given model.

They are just normal warjacks or warbeasts when it comes to buying them. THere's even a theoretical "battlebox" out there at 12pts that is just Kaelyssa and a Hyperion in Retribution. The thing is that they cost 18-20 points, and so will be putting lots of eggs in a basket at lower point levels.

And stuff.

You can play most of the colossals/Gargantuans with most casters at the 15 point level if you are so inclined.

 Blaque wrote:
They are just normal warjacks or warbeasts when it comes to buying them. THere's even a theoretical "battlebox" out there at 12pts that is just Kaelyssa and a Hyperion in Retribution. The thing is that they cost 18-20 points, and so will be putting lots of eggs in a basket at lower point levels.

And stuff.

It does work well with the right casters. The Judicator has become a staple with eFeora for me, even at 35pts. I think you'll find room to play most colossals at 35pts really, though some will be better than others. You tend to seem them more at 50 just because they tend not to skew the list so much at that level.

So, I am looking to get a starter set... is the P3 paintline very good? I have only used GW if that helps with comparision (I have a ton of GW paint on hand already). I have been meaning to expand my paint horizons as well.... Is the prepackaged army paint set worth getting or should I just pick out separate paints? The trollbloods blue is the color that I am not sure that I have in the GW paint range....

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
So, I am looking to get a starter set... is the P3 paintline very good? I have only used GW if that helps with comparision (I have a ton of GW paint on hand already). I have been meaning to expand my paint horizons as well.... Is the prepackaged army paint set worth getting or should I just pick out separate paints? The trollbloods blue is the color that I am not sure that I have in the GW paint range....

I wouldn't buy new paint. Unless you're doing to do a super-precise match of the studio color schemes you'll be fine. There really isn't a need for new paint if you're already invested in a bunch. Otherwise just paint them how you think cool or just go for "Close Enough" against the studio theme, nobody will notice. From what I hear the PP paints are of about the same quality of most other miniatures paints though I haven't tried them personally.

In general the PP paints take longer to dry than the GW paints because PP is really fond of and likes to push the wet blend techniques.

My experience is that the PP paints are a bit wetter and thinner than GW stuff. But also hold up better against time.

The big issue is that PP has a unique color pallet while GW matches up well with other lines. But they also have some very cool and unique colors like blighted gold and Necrotite green.

Anyways, if you start a color scheme with non-P3 paints and want to switch over later you might be in trouble (and vice versa). Not necesarily a huge issue. I have multiple brands of paint that I use.