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Even Angron isn't too bad - you pay all those points and he still goes down to shooting.

ive played my 40k army against my buddies 30k one...

I felt he was at a significant disdvantage

going to up my handicapp and play again though, its all good fun

As long as both players consent to it, why not? Best case you will have a good game, worst case you'll do it once and never again.

Really, the only thing questionable is the phrasing "should", as it implies enforcement.

Well, it depends.

Should it be allowed in 40k in general? Sure, why not? As long as the FOC is the same, it shouldn't be a big deal.
Should it be allowed in 40k tournaments? Eh, probably not. There's a difference between Codex specific rules, and an entirely new rulebook (Mostly stuff like Pride of the Legion, methinks).

 Lynata wrote:
Really, the only thing questionable is the phrasing "should", as it implies enforcement.

That's because I'm wondering about organized events, as well. In casual play, someone may refuse to play you because you have a Tau army. Or because they don't like your t-shirt.

Oh. Well, don't all the tournaments have their own rules on what they allow and what not, anyways? Just like some will allow FW and others not, some could also allow HH stuff and others not.

People who don't like it would have to swallow the bitter pill and stay away. When you organise something involving so many people, it's pretty much impossible to please everyone.

The good thing is that the lack of a uniform policy allows so many different types of tournaments to exist that everybody gets something.

It's forge world, you need your opponents permission to play it against them instead of using normal 40k stuffs.

Case closed.

I think if TOs want to use 30k lists in their tournaments, they'll be fine. The Primarchs should be handled like Super heavies, though, and not allowed at tournaments unless super heavies are allowed.

 Lynata wrote:
Well, don't all the tournaments have their own rules on what they allow and what not, anyways?

I've never heard of one, aside from niche themed ones, where you couldn't bring, for example, Space Marine or Eldar. Yeah, they may have "their own rules" but a 40k tourney is generally understood to mean something pretty consistent with the BGB and current codices.

 Manchu wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Well, don't all the tournaments have their own rules on what they allow and what not, anyways?

I've never heard of one, aside from niche themed ones, where you couldn't bring, for example, Space Marine or Eldar. Yeah, they may have "their own rules" but a 40k tourney is generally understood to mean something pretty consistent with the BGB and current codices.

But you have heard of dozes (or hundreds) of them that tacitly discourage those sort of things by selectively misinterpreting the rules and creating their own non-rules.

So what's really the difference?

juraigamer wrote:It's forge world, you need your opponents permission to play it against them instead of using normal 40k stuffs.

Case closed.

That hasn't been true for years.

Manchu wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Well, don't all the tournaments have their own rules on what they allow and what not, anyways?

I've never heard of one, aside from niche themed ones, where you couldn't bring, for example, Space Marine or Eldar. Yeah, they may have "their own rules" but a 40k tourney is generally understood to mean something pretty consistent with the BGB and current codices.

It's more a fantasy thing than a 40k thing. Fantasy tournaments you often see something like;

- No more than 25% on monsters
- No Teclis
- No Wizard's Hat

or something along those lines.

While I don't think there's too much harm in using them for normal 40k games for the most part, FW has made it clear they aren't designed with that in mind, but rather are intended to be played against other HH lists.

I'd really have no problems playing with or against such a list for the most part, but if as a TO, despite allowing pretty much everything else FW, I don't think I'd allow the HH lists in a tournament because of the explicit statement from FW stating they weren't intended for such play.

Manchu wrote:I've never heard of one, aside from niche themed ones, where you couldn't bring, for example, Space Marine or Eldar. Yeah, they may have "their own rules" but a 40k tourney is generally understood to mean something pretty consistent with the BGB and current codices.

You're right. I was thinking of not every tournament allowing FW armies, but if they do it stands to reason that they would not make a difference between standard FW and Heresy stuff. Is this what OP's question is referring to? Maybe I interpreted it incorrectly.

[edit] Vaktathi raises a good point - if FW themselves recommend against mixing, then the organisers might still follow suit.

Sidenote: was it ever possible to play something like a Codex Catachans list at a GW tourney? You know, a non-codex GW list.

Furyou Miko wrote:That hasn't been true for years.

Technically, it still is. You cannot force someone to play your army - regardless of whether you play a GW Codex, a FW list, or your own homebrewn rules. The 1st one just has the advantage of being considered a "common ground" by most if not all players, whereas the community still feels split on the 2nd option. 3rd one should be obvious.

In friendly games against enemies who know they're going to be facing the list and are okay with it, fine. Don't show up to a pick-up game and expect the other guy to allow it, or complain if he objects.

 Manchu wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Well, don't all the tournaments have their own rules on what they allow and what not, anyways?

I've never heard of one, aside from niche themed ones, where you couldn't bring, for example, Space Marine or Eldar. Yeah, they may have "their own rules" but a 40k tourney is generally understood to mean something pretty consistent with the BGB and current codices.

Except when you're talking about a comp-heavy event (of which there are plenty). They might not ban an entire codex, but you can't really call it "consistent with the BGB and current codices" when you have rules like "no more than two flyers per army".

The point costs for the Legions in Betrayal are BIZARRE and not in a good way at all. Almost every unit is charged a massive "Heresy tax" just for existing (look at those poor Breacher squad members, for a particularly egregious example). Using those army lists is a recipe for total failure in a competitive situation - they are not fairly priced, not balanced, and absolutely not consistent even within the book. I honestly think that the Forge World folks play some strange house rule monstrosity that bears no resemblance to the 40K seen by mere mortals.

Oddly for a Forge World product, the actual rules are pretty decent. They should be addressing the Chain Fire Serpenta issue in their next FAQ, and that's one of the only "gotchas" I've found so far.

I can't speak for tournies, never played in one, and I don't really have an interest in it, but I really think that kind of decision should come down to the players. All it really takes is a simple 'Do you mind if I field some FW stuff?' to get that taken care of.

I like to imagine that they don't exist at all.

 Melissia wrote:
I like to imagine that they don't exist at all.

But...the rules are...so beautifully balanced and well written...

Tzeench is correct, all the units come with a heresy tax, look at assault squads now, then the heresy ones, there more expensive due to being fairly rare

 Furyou Miko wrote:

juraigamer wrote:It's forge world, you need your opponents permission to play it against them instead of using normal 40k stuffs.

Case closed.

That hasn't been true for years.

As stated it is listed that in order to use FW units, codexes, ect you must have your opponents permission and/or TO's allowing it. You cannot simply walk up to a guy and say lets play and not inform them what unit you would like to take and if it's ok.

I think they actually stopped printing that line in the last few books - or at least it is not as explicit anymore. It basically still suggests it.

http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/?p=1984
This article has what I'd deem a fairly good analysis of the situation.

This isn't really the place to debate FW "validity", though - the OP specifically asked to keep that out of the thread.

Hi,

I play HH marines and they're not overpowered in my opinion, especially with the lack of things you can have compared to codex Space Marines. I didnt think I'd miss the Tac Squad and free Rocket Launchers and flamers but now I do, as well as having to have all weapons the same in a Devestator Squad.

I don't play any Lords Of War options and the Primarch of my legion isn't out yet but for the points you pay, there not invincible. A lot of the units that can actually do good such as the Contemptor are over 200 points so most of the time I have less things on the table, and with a lot less flexibility than 40k Codex SM Jockeys.

To be honest, they all use the same rules and I've found that when people hear the army I'm running, they come to fight me instead of worrying about things. How often are you going to fight a full HH legion?

No. because they should focus more on getting existing models up to scratch with current rules editions before running off on wild tangeants on the off chance a gamer wants something to act as a center piece (with large GW kits produced now means that has largely been made redundant) Edit: this may seem OT, but it underlines the problem of why it is a bad idea. if people think things are OP with current Models, imaggine the issues if you had a warhound and the other guy didn't have a gargant or equivalent? it'd make the game more fun in larger games and save the end user (you me and all the wargamers money) $$$ but at the same time create un-needed issues at this time (when GW is slowly trying to earn the trust of many of their fans of their miniatures. focus more on getting everything in line with the same codex and quit making bigger stuff as it only slows down production on everything else. if everything was in line and everyone had a super heavy or a titan then there'd be no issue's GP wise. if it is a Narrative game or a based on a Historical (for 40k) battle i don't see a problem. I thought you could use FW in reg games just not tourney's. which is the way it should be (makes everything potentially OP with FW kits)

 juraigamer wrote:
As stated it is listed that in order to use FW units, codexes, ect you must have your opponents permission and/or TO's allowing it. You cannot simply walk up to a guy and say lets play and not inform them what unit you would like to take and if it's ok.

Since when can you walk up to a guy and say let's play and not inform them what unit you would like to take with ANY rules? Do you plan to hold a gun to my head and force me to play against your necron flyerspam list just because I said "sure, I'll play" before realizing what you had in mind? Or does the fact that it's a codex list magically bind me to the table and prevent me from saying "sorry, not interested" and walking away?

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
if people think things are OP with current Models, imaggine the issues if you had a warhound and the other guy didn't have a gargant or equivalent?

This is why it's important to understand the rules before having an opinion about whether they should be allowed or not. FW rules do NOT allow you to take a Warhound in a normal game of 40k. Even with the Heresy list that allows you to take a Warhound (in a 3000+ point game) if you want to play it against anything other than another Heresy list (with equal access to Warhounds) you are required to create an appropriate set of superheavy/etc options for the "standard" army to pick from, you can't just bring your Warhound and laugh as they have nothing to stop it.

I thought you could use FW in reg games just not tourney's.

GW doesn't run tournaments, so the only rules for them are "what some random person feels like doing in their event", which means FW can be allowed or banned depending on the TO's mood at the time.

Have any of you actually played the list? Either vs 40k or 30k?

Speaking from my experience, and you can find my vids for some of these games on YouTube, they are fine vs 40k forces, being neither overpowered or underpowered. The primarchs are basically over priced greater daemons and the legion lst lacks a great deal of flexibility that SM lists usually have

Hi,

I play HH marines and they're not overpowered in my opinion, especially with the lack of things you can have compared to codex Space Marines. I didnt think I'd miss the Tac Squad and free Rocket Launchers and flamers but now I do, as well as having to have all weapons the same in a Devestator Squad.

I don't play any Lords Of War options and the Primarch of my legion isn't out yet but for the points you pay, there not invincible. A lot of the units that can actually do good such as the Contemptor are over 200 points so most of the time I have less things on the table, and with a lot less flexibility than 40k Codex SM Jockeys.

To be honest, they all use the same rules and I've found that when people hear the army I'm running, they come to fight me instead of worrying about things

Thanks for some actual/solid gaming experience guys and not the usual knee jerk reaction (all) forums provide

I'd concur that while some rules are OP in the HH book, some are inevitably OP in the core Codicies.
We hammered out a 1500 HH vs SM list of late and whilst the Primarch did make a big(!) difference it was more ignorance of the ruleset and lack of practice than anything.
I'd happily put a Green Tide with Gazzy up agaisnt one of the HH lists.
Hell, 6th Flyer Spam? Goodnight HH.

Ponit being, lack of experience and pseudo list building mean little VS actual games.
Are they broken? Sure they are VS certain builds/lists. Bur c;mon peeps we've played 40k long enough to know most X lists are broken vs Y lists.
Rock, paper zzzzz

I like to imagine that they don't exist at all.

The HH book army lists?
Why?








Automatically Appended Next Post:

No. because they should focus more on getting existing models up to scratch with current rules editions before running off on wild tangeants on the off chance a gamer wants something to act as a center piece

Uhhm? FW is a subco of GW. They dont / do not have to update current GW army lists/codicies. That is not their goal / business model.
They are a subco catering for specialist/specifcs subsets of the GW experience - and that includes warhammer, 40k, aeronautica, terrain etc etc.

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
if people think things are OP with current Models, imaggine the issues if you had a warhound and the other guy didn't have a gargant or equivalent?

This is why it's important to understand the rules before having an opinion about whether they should be allowed or not. FW rules do NOT allow you to take a Warhound in a normal game of 40k. Even with the Heresy list that allows you to take a Warhound (in a 3000+ point game) if you want to play it against anything other than another Heresy list (with equal access to Warhounds) you are required to create an appropriate set of superheavy/etc options for the "standard" army to pick from, you can't just bring your Warhound and laugh as they have nothing to stop it.

I thought you could use FW in reg games just not tourney's.

GW doesn't run tournaments, so the only rules for them are "what some random person feels like doing in their event", which means FW can be allowed or banned depending on the TO's mood at the time.

GW doesn't run tournaments? Did I miss something? >_>

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m160017a_Throne_of_Skulls_-_Warhammer_40,000_Pack.pdf

that is right. i know the rules. and i also know GW doesn't personally endorse or promote tournaments. if it is a tournament that is it is under GW's rules and conditions of tournament/s. i am betting you haven't been to an official GW tournament? i wasn't generalising when you can you them in reg games. you need your oppoonents permission to use it. and also outside TO arrange whatever they feel is required to "make the game at that present time as enjoyable for one player and the next in equal measure, regardless of victory or defeat"

Hmm? If GW dont run regular tourneys then: How do FW models/rules affect said tourneys?

If GW do run these tourneys but you need your opponents permission to run a Warhound or HH list, and he/shes says no?.....

Im really confused by your post.

And lastly it said list of options and i clicked No. add your reasoning. IIRC i did just that.....i apologise for not going into 7000 word overdrive. but when i do people cannot comprehend what i say. so forgive me if i left out some important details (that left me open to attack, i am by no means a noob, by somone thinking i am a 10 year veteran or less, because i have played 40k the better part of 29 years. started with D&D in '87 and progressed to HQ/Spacecrusade. several years later i bought my first actual 40k. there is no rule i haven't read. in ANY rules editions. or expansions etc. if i am incomprehenisble it might due in part because i know so much on the matter, the human mind can only hold so much data before older data is pushed to the back of your mind to make room "concentration-wise" for more information. I am not a servitor. if i was i'd parrot what was written by those who wrote for GW @ the time word for word. i think this needed to be liffted off my chest. i am tired of people assuming i know NOTHING about 40k)