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 jy2 wrote:

tgf wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
My BT would have a 2++ Invuln from Forewarning and the Grimoire. Of course, this is assuming at least 1 of my several Lvl 3 psykers get Forewarning and the Grimoire doesn't screw me over at an inopportune time (like, before I'm ready to assault).

jy2, one of the things I do with grimoire if I am going to use it on a FMC like my BT is I use it before I move the BT. If I get the your save sucks now I fly his ass off the table into continuing or go get a soft target that has almost no chance of hurting him. Grimoire is anytime during movement making it nice and flexible.

I suppose you gould VS with him the turn the Grimoire messes up. BTW, I believe the Grimoire has to be used at the beginning of the turn.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
My BT would have a 2++ Invuln from Forewarning and the Grimoire. Of course, this is assuming at least 1 of my several Lvl 3 psykers get Forewarning and the Grimoire doesn't screw me over at an inopportune time (like, before I'm ready to assault).

The problem with that is while you have much better durability, you lose the sheer offensive punch that Skarbrand has, and since your attacks in most circumstances won't be ID, Swarmy will get his FnP thanks to a nearby Tervigon with endurance. So combat might drag on for two rounds, but most likely, you'll fail one of those 2+ (that Swarmy forces rerolls on), before you get through Swarmy's 5 wounds.

Now if you give that 2+ to Skar, if it goes to a second round of combat, Swarmy is dead with the exception of some astounding saves by the Nid player.

A Swarmlord with IA don't care about Instant Death.

Also, the BT could pack a heck of a punch. With an exalted reward and greater reward, you could give him the Eternal Blade. That's potentially up to 11 attacks on the charge striking at S8. Then also pile on Prescience from the heralds. You don't really need to cause ID in order to kill Swarmy.

Also, if you get lucky, the BT might get the gift that lets him re-roll Invuln's. That will cancel out Swarmy's bonesabre re-rolls.

By throwing all these bonuses on the BT and then supporting him with Forewarning, Prescience, and the Grimoire, thats a heck of a lot of points and support into him, and Swarmy could still nail him. It takes 10 wounds in CC to kill the Swarmy without FnP, that means 12 hits about, unless he has Iron Arm, in which case more. Hoping to hit the swarmy without Iron Arm OR FnP is a bit much I think. And even if you get him a 2++, that means about 3 wounds will get an expected kill, which is quite reasonable if Warp Speed or Iron Arm is on.

 jy2 wrote:

A Swarmlord with IA don't care about Instant Death.

Also, the BT could pack a heck of a punch. With an exalted reward and greater reward, you could give him the Eternal Blade. That's potentially up to 11 attacks on the charge striking at S8. Then also pile on Prescience from the heralds. You don't really need to cause ID in order to kill Swarmy.

Also, if you get lucky, the BT might get the gift that lets him re-roll Invuln's. That will cancel out Swarmy's bonesabre re-rolls.

It's the FnP that makes him care about ID.

More attacks at higher S would put in the ballpark of being a solid threat, but you are getting into some serious points expenditure at that point, especially when a single missed save wipes you out. If I was in bad shape on the second round, I'd probably sacrifice the prime to the challenge, hope for an extra wound back from Swarmy, some bad luck on your part on the various rolls you need to take, and tarpit you for another turn. Who knows, maybe the prime could even get ridiculously lucky with his LW/BS and ID the BT while Swarmy licks his wounds

I think you'd be better served using your superior speed to go after the weaker TMCs, and just tear up the army as opposed to risking the battle with Swarmy.

Skarbrand has what, 10 attacks on the charge? Hitting on 3's re-rolling and wounding on 2's.

8.88888 hits. 7.5 wounds. 3.75 unsaved wounds. He'll almost kill the Swarmlord on average but he's screwed afterward.

Unless the Swarmlord didn't get Iron Arm off, in which case Skarbrand brutally overkills him four times over.


The Swarmlord only moves 6" right? Best chance is probably just to avoid him and kill everything else.

 Nitros14 wrote:
The Swarmlord only moves 6" right? Best chance is probably just to avoid him and kill everything else.

This is pretty much the best tactic for dealing with the Swarmlord. While it's fun to try and 'prove your manliness' by running up and punching it in the face, the best thing to do is not open an opportunity where he can turn you into little red ribbons. Avoid combat and shoot it. A lot.

I always try to look at things in terms of competitive builds. Not just mano-a-mano in a vacuum, but what the army can do for the units. While you can definitely find armies with the Swarmlord + tyrant guards + tyranid prime, in truth, most competitive armies won't run this configuration. However, what they will run are psychic tervigons so one can assume Swarmlord will get Endurance put on him.

For daemons, you will see the Grimoire and many of the competitive daemon builds will be more psychic-heavy. Prescience in these armies are a guarantee, whereas powers such as Forewarning or Misfortune have a better than average chance of appearing if they run 2 or more Tzeentch Heralds.

The BT definitely has a chance to beat Swarmy, but there will be considerable risk to it as well. It all depends on a number of variables:

Does the Swarmlord get Iron Arm? Can it get Warp Speed?

Can daemons get Forewarning? Will the Grimoire work when it's supposed to?

Who has area terrain to just sit in?

Whoever wins will probably depend on some of the factors above.

 jifel wrote:

By throwing all these bonuses on the BT and then supporting him with Forewarning, Prescience, and the Grimoire, thats a heck of a lot of points and support into him, and Swarmy could still nail him. It takes 10 wounds in CC to kill the Swarmy without FnP, that means 12 hits about, unless he has Iron Arm, in which case more. Hoping to hit the swarmy without Iron Arm OR FnP is a bit much I think. And even if you get him a 2++, that means about 3 wounds will get an expected kill, which is quite reasonable if Warp Speed or Iron Arm is on.

And that is totally normal because this is a TAC daemon build I am talking about. Whether fighting the Swarmlord or a bunch of grots, most good daemon builds will be able to heap on force-multiplying powers to turn 1 unit of daemons into an uber-unit. Basically, it is something that you can more than reasonably expect to see when you go up against a good daemon army. Just as you can reasonably expect to see Swarmlord with Endurance, if not from himself then from a tervigon.

BTW, without Warp Speed or Prefered Enemy, the Swarmlord is going to only average 1W against the BT (4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound) so there is a 1 in 3 chance to penetrate his 2++ to kill the BT.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
It's the FnP that makes him care about ID.

More attacks at higher S would put in the ballpark of being a solid threat, but you are getting into some serious points expenditure at that point, especially when a single missed save wipes you out. If I was in bad shape on the second round, I'd probably sacrifice the prime to the challenge, hope for an extra wound back from Swarmy, some bad luck on your part on the various rolls you need to take, and tarpit you for another turn. Who knows, maybe the prime could even get ridiculously lucky with his LW/BS and ID the BT while Swarmy licks his wounds

I think you'd be better served using your superior speed to go after the weaker TMCs, and just tear up the army as opposed to risking the battle with Swarmy.

Yeah, in a real battle between the 2 armies, as a daemon player, I'd just ignore the ultra-slow Swarmlord and kill off the rest of the army. Screw Swarmy. I'd rather sic my BT on the tervigons. Swarmy can have fun trying to kill pink horrors with re-rollable 2++'s, that is, after I shoot him up for a few turns.

I would deal with the swarm lord how I deal with bloodthirsters, daemon princes. Enfeeble swarmy then grimoire a DP and go for smash attacks (against BT preferbly with warp speed'ed DP's or iron arm'ed DP's). With 6 rolls (up to 9 if I wanted to spend the points) rolls on the table its pretty possible and every time I have faced a BT I have insta killed it.

That or getting a 11 on the warp storm and having swarmy take a LD test on 3d6....

Debatable... Depends on the loadout and circumstance... Normally the Bloodthirster will strike first (I think) but I usually run my Swarmlord with a Tyrant Guard with a Lash Whip to reduce enemies to Initiative one. Then the Psychic Power "Paroxysm" will reduce the Thirster to WS and BS 1...

But a Bloodthirster with 2 Greater Rewards? Depends heavily on what you get, and the circumstance surrounding the battle.

But indeed, I wouldn't say that the Bloodthirster could have the Swarmlord for Breakfast. It's gonna be a close battle either way.

The BT lacks eternal warrior so if the Swarmlord wounds him he autodies. With iron Arm and Warp speed/endurance, the Swarmlord will shrug off anything the Bloodthirster tries and then kill him nearly instantly.

Actually thinking about it the best Daemon to fight Swarmlord with would be the following (assuming proper support)

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch Level 3 Psyker, 2 Greater gifts and a lesser gift. wings and Warp Forged armor

Then have other characters (say 4 Tzeentch heralds) rolling for forewarning, and one with the Grimior

And Fateweaver to re-roll the failed grimior.

If your DP gets IA, Then you have a 2++ save with a re-roll (cancels Swarmlord Re-roll) who routinely strikes at S10 thanks to Tzeentch lesser gift, and has EW from IA.

That said it is a lot of points to do this so you probably never will

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't re-roll re-rolls. So, if 4 wounds make it through and you pass all your saves on the 2++, ole swarmy can have you reroll all of them. If you now fail two of those, you can not reroll them to try and save again.

With that said, it all depends on what these two have access to. If SL gets IA, WS and can have endurance... on the charge he is getting 6 to 9 attacks... 4 to 7 hits... and I would say atleast one wound.(which means BT dies) However, who in their right mind gets close enough to the SL when he has access to all of that.

Roci wrote:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't re-roll re-rolls. So, if 4 wounds make it through and you pass all your saves on the 2++, ole swarmy can have you reroll all of them. If you now fail two of those, you can not reroll them to try and save again.

what he means is they cancel out because you have to re-roll both successfuls and fails, so the to things negate each other (as you would roll the dice, then re-roll every single dice anyway)

Tactical_Genius wrote:

Roci wrote:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't re-roll re-rolls. So, if 4 wounds make it through and you pass all your saves on the 2++, ole swarmy can have you reroll all of them. If you now fail two of those, you can not reroll them to try and save again.

what he means is they cancel out because you have to re-roll both successfuls and fails, so the to things negate each other (as you would roll the dice, then re-roll every single dice anyway)

Yes either you just roll the dice twice (for sticklers) or just once since the effect is the same.

Wonder how the GUO would fare with biomancy and two greater rewards? Both these guys would be pretty hard to kill, lol.

 Shandara wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

Roci wrote:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't re-roll re-rolls. So, if 4 wounds make it through and you pass all your saves on the 2++, ole swarmy can have you reroll all of them. If you now fail two of those, you can not reroll them to try and save again.

what he means is they cancel out because you have to re-roll both successfuls and fails, so the to things negate each other (as you would roll the dice, then re-roll every single dice anyway)

Yes either you just roll the dice twice (for sticklers) or just once since the effect is the same.

What you should actually do is re-roll your succesful saves and re-roll your failed saves once. It does make a difference in game. You can end up failing more saves than you saved or vice versa.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

With Iron Arm and Warp Speed up, my swarmlord can not only kill your one bloodthirster, but kill the other three you took without breaking a sweat. After ripping your MCs a new one, I'd put a mug under you to collect your tears for my drinking pleasure.

And with shadow in the warp I can also "lolnope" your Daemon's psychic shooting and laugh evilly as they perils themselves to death in short order.

And my Tervigons will be camping that objective all day long and there won't be anything you can do about it.

And your flying MCs? Pew pew flying dakkarants just made them all crash and burn.

Your bloodletters will feel useless as they are bringing power weapons to an army horrifically devoid of any 3+ saves anyway! Muahahahhaaha

Plaguebearers? You don't get cover against hive guard or assault and I have nothing to get glanced to death!

Daemonnettes? More like weedier genestealers, eat devourers!

Horrors? Thank you for giving my monstrous creatures feel no pain.

Yes, your tears are indeed delicious.

Nice wishlisting, but why would I ever risk my BTs near your Swarmlord when they have wings and can just fly around while Swarmy can't catch them?

Shadow in the Warp is 12". Flickering Fires of Tzeentch is 24".

Tervigons are laughably bad in CC. Guess who's going after them?

Flying MCs? Just how many Dakkarants can you fit in after Swarmlord? One? I'm not aware they had a special rule which made grounding tests any harder to fail than the normal roll. Since we're wishlisting, oh! Fateweaver reroll!

Any Daemon player who takes Bloodletters... is fighting an uphill struggle. Daemonettes aren't competitive either really. In any case, they're both still stronger in cc than gaunts.

How many Plagues are you going to kill with your two shot Hive guard a turn? One? They still have an invuln without a cover save... and you don't take them to glance vehicles. You don't get a charge bonus for assaulting them, so it's just however many gaunts versus however many plagues, who re-roll to wound on a 4+ and strike first, since you don't have grenades and will be assaulting into cover.

Horrors? How many Str 6 shots can your silly walking Swarmlord unit take? 24? 48? 60? 18D6?

I don't think they're quite the pushover you think they are...

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Horrors? How many Str 6 shots can your silly walking Swarmlord unit take? 24? 48? 60? 18D6?

I was actually curious about that so I did the maths. Against the standard Swarmlord deathstar with 10 wounds and both Iron Arm and Endurance, it takes, on average, 303.75 Pink Horror shots to kill the unit (taking into account Feel No Pain from Endurance, Toughness 7-9 from Iron Arm, strength 6 from the Exalted Locus of Conjuration, and rerolls to hit from Prescience, but not taking into account It Will Not Die, Deny the Witch, failed psychic tests and Warpflame.)

With Iron arm up I'd have S7-9, which means your horrors give me stackable FNP.

Thank you for making him invincible.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Horrors? How many Str 6 shots can your silly walking Swarmlord unit take? 24? 48? 60? 18D6?

I was actually curious about that so I did the maths. Against the standard Swarmlord deathstar with 10 wounds and both Iron Arm and Endurance, it takes, on average, 303.75 Pink Horror shots to kill the unit (taking into account Feel No Pain from Endurance, Toughness 7-9 from Iron Arm, strength 6 from the Exalted Locus of Conjuration, and rerolls to hit from Prescience, but not taking into account It Will Not Die, Deny the Witch, failed psychic tests and Warpflame.)

It's majority toughness, so if he has 2+ guards with him, then the toughness of the unit is still T6 with regards to shooting.

Assuming that is what you mean by a "Swarmlord deathstar".

 jy2 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Horrors? How many Str 6 shots can your silly walking Swarmlord unit take? 24? 48? 60? 18D6?

I was actually curious about that so I did the maths. Against the standard Swarmlord deathstar with 10 wounds and both Iron Arm and Endurance, it takes, on average, 303.75 Pink Horror shots to kill the unit (taking into account Feel No Pain from Endurance, Toughness 7-9 from Iron Arm, strength 6 from the Exalted Locus of Conjuration, and rerolls to hit from Prescience, but not taking into account It Will Not Die, Deny the Witch, failed psychic tests and Warpflame.)

It's majority toughness, so if he has 2+ guards with him, then the toughness of the unit is still T6 with regards to shooting.

Assuming that is what you mean by a "Swarmlord deathstar".

I meant Swarmlord + 1 Tyrant Guard + Tyranid Prime, so majoirty Touughness would be whatever is highest thanks to each having a different Toughness value when the Swarmlord gets Iron Arm.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Horrors? How many Str 6 shots can your silly walking Swarmlord unit take? 24? 48? 60? 18D6?

I was actually curious about that so I did the maths. Against the standard Swarmlord deathstar with 10 wounds and both Iron Arm and Endurance, it takes, on average, 303.75 Pink Horror shots to kill the unit (taking into account Feel No Pain from Endurance, Toughness 7-9 from Iron Arm, strength 6 from the Exalted Locus of Conjuration, and rerolls to hit from Prescience, but not taking into account It Will Not Die, Deny the Witch, failed psychic tests and Warpflame.)

It's majority toughness, so if he has 2+ guards with him, then the toughness of the unit is still T6 with regards to shooting.

Assuming that is what you mean by a "Swarmlord deathstar".

I meant Swarmlord + 1 Tyrant Guard + Tyranid Prime, so majoirty Touughness would be whatever is highest thanks to each having a different Toughness value when the Swarmlord gets Iron Arm.

Which would also mean you have no Flyrants... so no way to down my FMCs. And a very tough and expensive unit (i.e. pointsink) that moves 6" a turn, with virtually no shooting.

Personally I wouldn't bother with trying for Iron Arm. Just take Paraxysm. PSA that autohits and reduces WS and BS to 1 untill the Swarmlord's turn, plus gve himself Preferred enemy. Swarmlord wins. And take Leech Essence for a small chance of wounding at range.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Horrors? How many Str 6 shots can your silly walking Swarmlord unit take? 24? 48? 60? 18D6?

I was actually curious about that so I did the maths. Against the standard Swarmlord deathstar with 10 wounds and both Iron Arm and Endurance, it takes, on average, 303.75 Pink Horror shots to kill the unit (taking into account Feel No Pain from Endurance, Toughness 7-9 from Iron Arm, strength 6 from the Exalted Locus of Conjuration, and rerolls to hit from Prescience, but not taking into account It Will Not Die, Deny the Witch, failed psychic tests and Warpflame.)

It's majority toughness, so if he has 2+ guards with him, then the toughness of the unit is still T6 with regards to shooting.

Assuming that is what you mean by a "Swarmlord deathstar".

I meant Swarmlord + 1 Tyrant Guard + Tyranid Prime, so majoirty Touughness would be whatever is highest thanks to each having a different Toughness value when the Swarmlord gets Iron Arm.

Which would also mean you have no Flyrants... so no way to down my FMCs. And a very tough and expensive unit (i.e. pointsink) that moves 6" a turn, with virtually no shooting.

I more or less exclusively play 3k+ point double FOC games, so I at least have two flyrants going around.

 Deadshot wrote:
Personally I wouldn't bother with trying for Iron Arm. Just take Paraxysm. PSA that autohits and reduces WS and BS to 1 untill the Swarmlord's turn, plus gve himself Preferred enemy. Swarmlord wins. And take Leech Essence for a small chance of wounding at range.

You have four chances to roll for Iron Arm, that is worth it.

With the exception of Paroxysm the Hive Tyrant powers suck.

On the biomancy table you have Endurance, Leech, Warp Speed, and Iron Arm, which are all overpowered. You will roll at least *one* of them.

 Kain wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Horrors? How many Str 6 shots can your silly walking Swarmlord unit take? 24? 48? 60? 18D6?

I was actually curious about that so I did the maths. Against the standard Swarmlord deathstar with 10 wounds and both Iron Arm and Endurance, it takes, on average, 303.75 Pink Horror shots to kill the unit (taking into account Feel No Pain from Endurance, Toughness 7-9 from Iron Arm, strength 6 from the Exalted Locus of Conjuration, and rerolls to hit from Prescience, but not taking into account It Will Not Die, Deny the Witch, failed psychic tests and Warpflame.)

It's majority toughness, so if he has 2+ guards with him, then the toughness of the unit is still T6 with regards to shooting.

Assuming that is what you mean by a "Swarmlord deathstar".

I meant Swarmlord + 1 Tyrant Guard + Tyranid Prime, so majoirty Touughness would be whatever is highest thanks to each having a different Toughness value when the Swarmlord gets Iron Arm.

Which would also mean you have no Flyrants... so no way to down my FMCs. And a very tough and expensive unit (i.e. pointsink) that moves 6" a turn, with virtually no shooting.

I more or less exclusively play 3k+ point double FOC games, so I at least have two flyrants going around.

 Deadshot wrote:
Personally I wouldn't bother with trying for Iron Arm. Just take Paraxysm. PSA that autohits and reduces WS and BS to 1 untill the Swarmlord's turn, plus gve himself Preferred enemy. Swarmlord wins. And take Leech Essence for a small chance of wounding at range.

You have four chances to roll for Iron Arm, that is worth it.

With the exception of Paroxysm the Hive Tyrant powers suck.

On the biomancy table you have Endurance, Leech, Warp Speed, and Iron Arm, which are all overpowered. You will roll at least *one* of them.

Well you are in the minority of 40k players, and definitely in the minority of Tournaments. At that points level anything goes really, so most of the discussion here is of little to no use.

Endurance and Warp Speed are good, but by no means broken; Life Leech is meh, while Iron Arm is what everyone dreams of getting- it's Invisibility level game-changing.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Horrors? How many Str 6 shots can your silly walking Swarmlord unit take? 24? 48? 60? 18D6?

I was actually curious about that so I did the maths. Against the standard Swarmlord deathstar with 10 wounds and both Iron Arm and Endurance, it takes, on average, 303.75 Pink Horror shots to kill the unit (taking into account Feel No Pain from Endurance, Toughness 7-9 from Iron Arm, strength 6 from the Exalted Locus of Conjuration, and rerolls to hit from Prescience, but not taking into account It Will Not Die, Deny the Witch, failed psychic tests and Warpflame.)

It's majority toughness, so if he has 2+ guards with him, then the toughness of the unit is still T6 with regards to shooting.

Assuming that is what you mean by a "Swarmlord deathstar".

I meant Swarmlord + 1 Tyrant Guard + Tyranid Prime, so majoirty Touughness would be whatever is highest thanks to each having a different Toughness value when the Swarmlord gets Iron Arm.

Which would also mean you have no Flyrants... so no way to down my FMCs. And a very tough and expensive unit (i.e. pointsink) that moves 6" a turn, with virtually no shooting.

I more or less exclusively play 3k+ point double FOC games, so I at least have two flyrants going around.

 Deadshot wrote:
Personally I wouldn't bother with trying for Iron Arm. Just take Paraxysm. PSA that autohits and reduces WS and BS to 1 untill the Swarmlord's turn, plus gve himself Preferred enemy. Swarmlord wins. And take Leech Essence for a small chance of wounding at range.

You have four chances to roll for Iron Arm, that is worth it.

With the exception of Paroxysm the Hive Tyrant powers suck.

On the biomancy table you have Endurance, Leech, Warp Speed, and Iron Arm, which are all overpowered. You will roll at least *one* of them.

Well you are in the minority of 40k players, and definitely in the minority of Tournaments. At that points level anything goes really, so most of the discussion here is of little to no use.

Endurance and Warp Speed are good, but by no means broken; Life Leech is meh, while Iron Arm is what everyone dreams of getting- it's Invisibility level game-changing.

I play at that points level because by now I have a shack or two full of minis due to my borderline OCD to buy out any model I like that I've had since I was in elementary. That's what...nearly two decades of me buying crap I don't absolutely need?

I also stopped playing tournies when I moved down to South Africa, too much effort to go over and play an army that's rather inflexible.

I still competetively game outside of tournies and in large games.

Heck I'm even known as a fiend in apocalypse because I absolutely bring my A-game there to bring about the revenge of the Tyranids in spite of our crappy Cruddex.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


Which would also mean you have no Flyrants... so no way to down my FMCs. And a very tough and expensive unit (i.e. pointsink) that moves 6" a turn, with virtually no shooting.

Be that as it may, it's a disgustingly hard to put down unit that will devour 99% of what it catches in melee with absolutely no questions asked. When you factor in Regeneration on the Prime and the fact that (assuming the army has any Tervigons at all) it will almost certainly always have Endurance on it, this unit isn't going anywhere. You pick an objective or enemy unit, move/run it forwards each turn and wreak as much devastation as possible. It's an amazing board-control (well, board denial) unit and your opponent has two choices: ignore it and write off that part of the board, or expend a huge amount of effort to kill it (or keep it well fed, which is easier said than done).

As with all things Tyranid, if you're taking a Swarmlord/Prime/LashGuard deathstar then you have to make sure your list makes good use of it, supports it and benefits from it properly.

Err, it's a majority Toughness 7-9 unit with 10 Wounds and FNP and no invuln save, more importantly no way to get an invuln. It's roughly 425 points of no shooting. There's a reason no competitive Tyranid list takes it; because Flyrants are better.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Err, it's a majority Toughness 7-9 unit with 10 Wounds and FNP and no invuln save, more importantly no way to get an invuln. It's roughly 425 points of no shooting. There's a reason no competitive Tyranid list takes it; because Flyrants are better.

More of, because we at best have four HQ slots ever outside of apocalypse, so we really need as many flyrants as we can get until we finally get either some FW loving or a new codex.