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I think Bloodthirster is one of the things that actually stand a chance against the infamous swarmlord.

But my friend who plays tyranids tells me that swarmlord has a ability that makes you WS 1 and I1.
And does the swarmlord attack's Instand Death ignore FNP as well?

Is all that up to date?

Well. If it is that just ruins my plan to have swarmlord for breakfast. :/

1 on 1 I think the thirster has a decent shot, it really depends on what powers the swarmlord rolls (he can take Paroxism, which makes a unit WS 1, but I think it is a shooting attack.

Essentially though I think you need to kill him before he strikes, otherwise his instant death weapon kills the thirster.

Breng77 wrote:
1 on 1 I think the thirster has a decent shot, it really depends on what powers the swarmlord rolls (he can take Paroxism, which makes a unit WS 1, but I think it is a shooting attack.

Essentially though I think you need to kill him before he strikes, otherwise his instant death weapon kills the thirster.

Basically. It depends on who go first isn't it? Does the swarmlord's attack negates FNP?

Instant death always ignore FNP regardless of the source, so yes.

I would say that the Swarmlord would win as he has a better invulnerable save and all he need is one wound to kill the thirster in close combat whereas the Thirster has to do 5

The Swarmlord will have Eternal Warrior most of the time, and he causes Instant Death to the Bloodthirster who is unlikely to make any saves.

The Swarmlord cannot lower anyone's initiative. He could lower WS, but he's pretty unlikely to have those powers.

The only way the Bloodthirster can win is if he's' the Warlord, get's the instant death warlord trait rule, and the Swarmlord isn't an Eternal Warrior that time.

kissmymom wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
1 on 1 I think the thirster has a decent shot, it really depends on what powers the swarmlord rolls (he can take Paroxism, which makes a unit WS 1, but I think it is a shooting attack.

Essentially though I think you need to kill him before he strikes, otherwise his instant death weapon kills the thirster.

Basically. It depends on who go first isn't it? Does the swarmlord's attack negates FNP?

Yes, as every wound inflicted by the Swarmlord triggers instant death regardless of toughness, which in turn denies feel no pain. He also forces you to reroll successful invulnerable saves against his attacks while packing a 4++ of his own while in close combat (and probably FNP on top of it all) so barring bad rolls on the part of the Swarmlord he will probably tank most of the blows sent his way and then cut the Thirster down.

In regards to your friend's comment regarding the ability to make a Thirster WS1 and I1, the Swarmlord has a couple different ways to negate your WS (either Paroxysm from himself/friendly Tyrant if he keeps his base powers or Invisibility from the Telepathy discipline) while escorting Tyrant Guard have the option to take Lash Whips which force foes in base with them to strike at I1 (can get around this by challenging however).

Remember When a bloodthirster roles a 6 to wound those wounds inflict instant death. Bloodthirstier goes first against Swarmlord, so he has a chance to do it, not a great chance but a chance.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

kissmymom wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
1 on 1 I think the thirster has a decent shot, it really depends on what powers the swarmlord rolls (he can take Paroxism, which makes a unit WS 1, but I think it is a shooting attack.

Essentially though I think you need to kill him before he strikes, otherwise his instant death weapon kills the thirster.

Basically. It depends on who go first isn't it? Does the swarmlord's attack negates FNP?

Yes, as every wound inflicted by the Swarmlord triggers instant death regardless of toughness, which in turn denies feel no pain. He also forces you to reroll successful invulnerable saves against his attacks while packing a 4++ of his own while in close combat (and probably FNP on top of it all) so barring bad rolls on the part of the Swarmlord he will probably tank most of the blows sent his way and then cut the Thirster down.

In regards to your friend's comment regarding the ability to make a Thirster WS1 and I1, the Swarmlord has a couple different ways to negate your WS (either Paroxysm from himself/friendly Tyrant if he keeps his base powers or Invisibility from the Telepathy discipline) while escorting Tyrant Guard have the option to take Lash Whips which force foes in base with them to strike at I1 (can get around this by challenging however).

I think he is talking about powers from tyranids codex. Is that a shooting attack? Paroxysm?

Swarmlord beats the Bloodthirsters face in...several times. Rolling four powers on biomancy he is likely to get iron arm, meaning he is often eternal warrior and is wounded on 5's/6's (guessing BT has standard MC strength 6??) or he will smash. Swarmlord lives and hits back with 5 attacks with preferred enemy getting 3 hits, 1.5 wounds against a 5++ that has to be re-rolled, one wound gets through BT dies.... Yeah. Bloodthirster has little chance, but to be fair, neither does anybody else save any old Necron with mindshackle scarabs.

Its the Swarmlord, what did you expect?

If you really want to be cheese about it.... the Bloodthirster flys and the SL is not likely to have any kind of shooting attacks. (well, maybe one with the bio roles, but in most cases he is going to need IA and endurnce to not die) Just keep flying over him and hitting him with d3+1 vector strikes.. at S8 and ap3.

It ignores his armor and he only gets invul in CC. At T6 thats only 2's to wound... he would have to get endurance just to get a save. If he doesn't then he just stands there and dies.

kissmymom wrote:
I think Bloodthirster is one of the things that actually stand a chance against the infamous swarmlord.

But my friend who plays tyranids tells me that swarmlord has a ability that makes you WS 1 and I1.
And does the swarmlord attack's Instand Death ignore FNP as well?

Is all that up to date?

Well. If it is that just ruins my plan to have swarmlord for breakfast. :/

With Iron Arm and Warp Speed up, my swarmlord can not only kill your one bloodthirster, but kill the other three you took without breaking a sweat. After ripping your MCs a new one, I'd put a mug under you to collect your tears for my drinking pleasure.

And with shadow in the warp I can also "lolnope" your Daemon's psychic shooting and laugh evilly as they perils themselves to death in short order.

And my Tervigons will be camping that objective all day long and there won't be anything you can do about it.

And your flying MCs? Pew pew flying dakkarants just made them all crash and burn.

Your bloodletters will feel useless as they are bringing power weapons to an army horrifically devoid of any 3+ saves anyway! Muahahahhaaha

Plaguebearers? You don't get cover against hive guard or assault and I have nothing to get glanced to death!

Daemonnettes? More like weedier genestealers, eat devourers!

Horrors? Thank you for giving my monstrous creatures feel no pain.

Yes, your tears are indeed delicious.

Roci wrote:
If you really want to be cheese about it.... the Bloodthirster flys and the SL is not likely to have any kind of shooting attacks. (well, maybe one with the bio roles, but in most cases he is going to need IA and endurnce to not die) Just keep flying over him and hitting him with d3+1 vector strikes.. at S8 and ap3.

It ignores his armor and he only gets invul in CC. At T6 thats only 2's to wound... he would have to get endurance just to get a save. If he doesn't then he just stands there and dies.

Except he's likely attached to a Tyrant Guard and a good chance of a regen Tyranid Prime being in there as well. He'll either be enduranced from his own power, or if he doesn't have it, and you are focusing on his unit, a tervigon will probably provide it for him. So through LoS he has plenty of ablative wounds with FNP and IWND on the entire group, and regen on the prime. You might take 1-2 tyrant guard down around turn 10 with vector strikes alone...if you are lucky.

Roci wrote:
If you really want to be cheese about it.... the Bloodthirster flys and the SL is not likely to have any kind of shooting attacks. (well, maybe one with the bio roles, but in most cases he is going to need IA and endurnce to not die) Just keep flying over him and hitting him with d3+1 vector strikes.. at S8 and ap3.

It ignores his armor and he only gets invul in CC. At T6 thats only 2's to wound... he would have to get endurance just to get a save. If he doesn't then he just stands there and dies.

Bloodthirsters are S6. His vector strikes will need at least a 4+ to wound. Considering the Swarmlord will probably have Iron Arm, he'd need even more. Also, Swarmlords don't walk around on their own, so it won't even wound him.

Further also, Termagants will shoot a Bloodthirster out of the sky.

While the S6 is true, IA won't matter due to majority toughness.

Swarmlord, single Tyrant Guard, Tyranid Prime. Cast Iron Arm on the Swarmlord and you have 3 different toughness ratings as "majority" - highest wins on majority ties.

Hmm, good point. Although now I'm wondering exactly how much survivability you gain/lose with this vs multiple Tyrant Guard.

To the Mathammermobile!!

I was talking pure one on one, once you include the army, it changes the dynamics of the question.

Ah, I was off on the Str, (had asked a buddy, instead of looking it up) profile does say s7 though. If if was just one on one, I still say the VS from the BT would end up killing him.


In an assault, I agree, SL wins it.

Pony_law wrote:
Remember When a bloodthirster roles a 6 to wound those wounds inflict instant death. Bloodthirstier goes first against Swarmlord, so he has a chance to do it, not a great chance but a chance.

A CSM DP with murder sword also has a chance to take him down. Not a good chance, but it is there.

It really revolves around the swarmlord not getting Iron Arms with his 4 powers at the start of the game. Actually the best way I have found to take him down in combat(duh shooting is always better) is Eldar/DE allied together. You reduce the chance he can cast psykic powers with an farseer while buffing a couple archons with a huskblades. The odds are in your favor, even if you dont use fortuned 2++ to laugh at him.

 Exergy wrote:

Pony_law wrote:
Remember When a bloodthirster roles a 6 to wound those wounds inflict instant death. Bloodthirstier goes first against Swarmlord, so he has a chance to do it, not a great chance but a chance.

A CSM DP with murder sword also has a chance to take him down. Not a good chance, but it is there.

It really revolves around the swarmlord not getting Iron Arms with his 4 powers at the start of the game. Actually the best way I have found to take him down in combat(duh shooting is always better) is Eldar/DE allied together. You reduce the chance he can cast psykic powers with an farseer while buffing a couple archons with a huskblades. The odds are in your favor, even if you dont use fortuned 2++ to laugh at him.

I would think either A CSM DP with the Black Mace or Skarbrand would be the only other single models that could take him down.

 McNinja wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Pony_law wrote:
Remember When a bloodthirster roles a 6 to wound those wounds inflict instant death. Bloodthirstier goes first against Swarmlord, so he has a chance to do it, not a great chance but a chance.

A CSM DP with murder sword also has a chance to take him down. Not a good chance, but it is there.

It really revolves around the swarmlord not getting Iron Arms with his 4 powers at the start of the game. Actually the best way I have found to take him down in combat(duh shooting is always better) is Eldar/DE allied together. You reduce the chance he can cast psykic powers with an farseer while buffing a couple archons with a huskblades. The odds are in your favor, even if you dont use fortuned 2++ to laugh at him.

I would think either A CSM DP with the Black Mace or Skarbrand would be the only other single models that could take him down.

actually why go for huskblades. he has a 3+/4++. Go with flesh guantlets.

Still it really depends on him having iron arms or not. With it it can be tought to take him down.

Swarmlord wrecks the BT. But skarbrand will destroy the swarmlord

Yeah skarbrand hits on rerollable 3's and wounds on 2's and instant deaths. He has the best chance in the demon codex

kissmymom wrote:
I think he is talking about powers from tyranids codex. Is that a shooting attack? Paroxysm?

Yes, its a psychic shooting attack that automatically hits its target if in range. While it is a good power, the Swarmlord will probably swap out for rulebook disciplines in order to take advantage of his mastery level 2 status (since Paroxysm is the only power that is particularly useful, Leech Essence is only S3 and the other two powers force leadership tests which means they are unlikely to do much).

A second Tyrant on the other hand might hold on to it, since they can only use one power at a time anyway.

Again, does Swarmy have IA? If not, he's dead meat. If he does, statistically Skar will do about 3-4 wounds to him, then he'll turn around and ID Skar. It really comes down to IA, and Swarmy not tanking his inv save.

My BT would have a 2++ Invuln from Forewarning and the Grimoire. Of course, this is assuming at least 1 of my several Lvl 3 psykers get Forewarning and the Grimoire doesn't screw me over at an inopportune time (like, before I'm ready to assault).

the swarmlord will not be able to hit the BT with parox if he is flying, taking a bt against a swarmlord is a bit silly though if you think about it. One of the parts of this game is knowing how to turn down a fight. Killing the swarmlord with demons is a hard thing to do since he is a level 2 psyker he will do quite good with DTW rolls against your shooting attacks from horrors. I am thinking it will be an army wide effort to take him down. I typically play tzeentch, khorne. I would probably use my TZ heralds to buff up the letter squad with 4+ invuln and then book of names for 2+. Make sure if you have herald or sarge you move them to the back of the squad before charging so you don't have to accept a challenge and can take advantage of rage charge. If the swarm lord is probably going to charge for you prepare for it. Throw your champ up front to take a challenge and limit your loss to 1 model so you can survive to the next round and help them. Long story short in this game you got to be smart and choose match ups that favor you. Fluff and Reality to not always match up.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:
My BT would have a 2++ Invuln from Forewarning and the Grimoire. Of course, this is assuming at least 1 of my several Lvl 3 psykers get Forewarning and the Grimoire doesn't screw me over at an inopportune time (like, before I'm ready to assault).

jy2, one of the things I do with grimoire if I am going to use it on a FMC like my BT is I use it before I move the BT. If I get the your save sucks now I fly his ass off the table into continuing or go get a soft target that has almost no chance of hurting him. Grimoire is anytime during movement making it nice and flexible.

 jy2 wrote:
My BT would have a 2++ Invuln from Forewarning and the Grimoire. Of course, this is assuming at least 1 of my several Lvl 3 psykers get Forewarning and the Grimoire doesn't screw me over at an inopportune time (like, before I'm ready to assault).

The problem with that is while you have much better durability, you lose the sheer offensive punch that Skarbrand has, and since your attacks in most circumstances won't be ID, Swarmy will get his FnP thanks to a nearby Tervigon with endurance. So combat might drag on for two rounds, but most likely, you'll fail one of those 2+ (that Swarmy forces rerolls on), before you get through Swarmy's 5 wounds.

Now if you give that 2+ to Skar, if it goes to a second round of combat, Swarmy is dead with the exception of some astounding saves by the Nid player.

Roci wrote:
If you really want to be cheese about it.... the Bloodthirster flys and the SL is not likely to have any kind of shooting attacks. (well, maybe one with the bio roles, but in most cases he is going to need IA and endurnce to not die) Just keep flying over him and hitting him with d3+1 vector strikes.. at S8 and ap3.

It ignores his armor and he only gets invul in CC. At T6 thats only 2's to wound... he would have to get endurance just to get a save. If he doesn't then he just stands there and dies.

The bloodthirster is str 6? And it does say that the VS of daemon of khrone is done at str 7, how did you get str 8?

tgf wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
My BT would have a 2++ Invuln from Forewarning and the Grimoire. Of course, this is assuming at least 1 of my several Lvl 3 psykers get Forewarning and the Grimoire doesn't screw me over at an inopportune time (like, before I'm ready to assault).

jy2, one of the things I do with grimoire if I am going to use it on a FMC like my BT is I use it before I move the BT. If I get the your save sucks now I fly his ass off the table into continuing or go get a soft target that has almost no chance of hurting him. Grimoire is anytime during movement making it nice and flexible.

I suppose you gould VS with him the turn the Grimoire messes up. BTW, I believe the Grimoire has to be used at the beginning of the turn.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
My BT would have a 2++ Invuln from Forewarning and the Grimoire. Of course, this is assuming at least 1 of my several Lvl 3 psykers get Forewarning and the Grimoire doesn't screw me over at an inopportune time (like, before I'm ready to assault).

The problem with that is while you have much better durability, you lose the sheer offensive punch that Skarbrand has, and since your attacks in most circumstances won't be ID, Swarmy will get his FnP thanks to a nearby Tervigon with endurance. So combat might drag on for two rounds, but most likely, you'll fail one of those 2+ (that Swarmy forces rerolls on), before you get through Swarmy's 5 wounds.

Now if you give that 2+ to Skar, if it goes to a second round of combat, Swarmy is dead with the exception of some astounding saves by the Nid player.

A Swarmlord with IA don't care about Instant Death.

Also, the BT could pack a heck of a punch. With an exalted reward and greater reward, you could give him the Eternal Blade. That's potentially up to 11 attacks on the charge striking at S8. Then also pile on Prescience from the heralds. You don't really need to cause ID in order to kill Swarmy.

Also, if you get lucky, the BT might get the gift that lets him re-roll Invuln's. That will cancel out Swarmy's bonesabre re-rolls.