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ShadarLogoth wrote:

Mephiston can beat him now that we don't have Warding. Draigo will also deal with him. Any of the big Daemons will destroy him (they can all get the Sword the causes ID as standard). Swarmlord crushes him. I'm pretty sure a Dreadknight beats him if he gets the charge (Avatar is a Daemon so will be going last). Other characters can beat him even without ID, Abby beats him even with Disarm on the Avatar.

I don't know about any of that. Disarm alone and his superior WS S AND I to basically everything you mentioned gives him a punchers chance. He gets off Disarm, which he should more often then not considering he has the best WS in the game, he can take them.

Jain is definitely very nice, but you would never run her with Banshees. You would be far better off attaching her to Harlies, since they are still the best choice for getting across the board intact without a transport. Even Scorpions walking across the board would probably work out better. Alternatively you could attach her to something tougher like Wraithblades or Guard

I envision them in a Wave Serpent, so none of those other options work without sacrificing Acrobatic, which is another huge part in how I envision her use.

He has equal WS to a Bloodthirster.

Tzeentch Daemon Princes can get Biomancy for Iron Arm, Warp Speed and be buffed to a 2++ invuln. Avatar can't handle that gak (Unless you somehow roll Misfortune, Fortune and Doom.) He really needed some sort of mobility buff.

Tzeentch Daemon Princes can get Biomancy for Iron Arm, Warp Speed and be buffed to a 2++ invuln. Avatar can't handle that gak (Unless you somehow roll Fortune and Doom.) He really needed some sort of mobility buff.

That's an extremely rare, and extremely ideal setup. The average Tzeentch DP is no where close to that powerful, largely due to die rolls not making it possible.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Tzeentch Daemon Princes can get Biomancy for Iron Arm, Warp Speed and be buffed to a 2++ invuln. Avatar can't handle that gak (Unless you somehow roll Fortune and Doom.) He really needed some sort of mobility buff.

That's an extremely rare, and extremely ideal setup. The average Tzeentch DP is no where close to that powerful, largely due to die rolls not making it possible.

How is it extremely rare? You have 3 rolls on Biomancy.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Tzeentch Daemon Princes can get Biomancy for Iron Arm, Warp Speed and be buffed to a 2++ invuln. Avatar can't handle that gak (Unless you somehow roll Fortune and Doom.) He really needed some sort of mobility buff.

That's an extremely rare, and extremely ideal setup. The average Tzeentch DP is no where close to that powerful, largely due to die rolls not making it possible.

How is it extremely rare? You have 3 rolls on Biomancy.

To get both IA and WS? Extremely rare probably isn't the right words to use, but it's probably around 10% (off the top of my head, that could be way off). But, you were also talking about tossing it the Grimoire right? That's another 3+ you have to pass.

Finally, you're talking about a 300 point MC taking down a 200 point MC. I don't think the Avatar should be embarrassed by that.

But fair enough, the super MCs from the Demon Codex could give the Avatar problems, but they wouldn't likely ID him, due to disarm, which is what my original point was. Most IC beatsticks should be well within the Avatar's CC range, largely because of Disarm.

 Heezayy wrote:
Before the new Codex I had always imagined using a jet-seer council as my HQ. Or at the very least a Farseer on a jetbike buffing the unit with warlocks in each of my jetbike squads.
Now that the powers are randomly generated I figured the jet-seer build is probably out of the question and warlocks in bike units aren't as effective without guaranteed embolden.
I was wondering what people would be taking as their HQ and their reasons to help me decide. (I am new to 40k)

Well, I'd opt for a Jetseer leading a unit of GJBs preferably 6 GJBs with 2 shuricannons. If you have points, then throw in a Jetlock with the primary power giving shrouding. I'd use this unit in the first place to fill gaps in your combat line. E.g., have some Wolf Scouts appearing in your backfield? Send this unit to eliminate them. Then in mid- or end-game, I'd prepare them for scoring.

Fuegan is... odd. He's great in cc, and is built to wreck vehicles. His main trick is that if you pair him with a Warlock Council and you get a few regenerator rolls, Fuegan can be farmed for +S/+A but that seems like alot of work. Hes just barely above the remaining P. Lords

I loved Fuegan in the old codex, especially after the FAQ. Best way to run him was with Harlies and he'd be Fortuned for like a 98% chance of saving an ap3+ wound, then the harlies would have a re-rolling +3 coversave (often a 2+), so anything AP1/2 s8 he could just pass off to the Harlies. He was also the only PL with >s8 melee attacks, at Init.

No fortune, no cover save boost on harlies, no FUEGAN SMASH! Even Karandras gets stronger attacks at init..

I want to run him (converted my own sweet model, my Avatar), I think best bet is to stick him in a Serpent with 5 Dragons with a Firepike/Fast Shot exarch and park them somewhere in cover and take pot-shots at stuff. Fuegan has Fast Shot and Split Fire now, so him and the Exarch can shoot at different things where appropriate and with 4 BS5-7 s8 ap1 Melta on a r18" shots, they should cause some serious havok. And IF anyone gets close enough to threaten them, just charge them and let Fuegan get chopping with his Axe.

As far as Harlies on foot in a Hybrid list go, I'd say Karandras is definitely the best fit (although Asurmen isn't totally bad now), taken along with either a Spirit Seer if points are short, so the Stealth and Shroud stack again or with Eldrad if points are availible, aiming for Fortune or Invisibility, depending on taste.

For a Codex that has about 13 HQ options a lot of what I see just boils down to "how many Farseers do I take?

Perhaps not. The Spirit Seer has lots of nice tricks, a 'Trolltarch' (Jetbike, Mantle, Shard) has some serious disruption power and definitely helps if your going with most things from FA. The question I think is if I need Psychic Support, do I take Eldrad, or do I take two Farseers?

 Exergy wrote:

 akaean wrote:
Warlocks are still very good in guardian jetbike squads, remember that the primars power is conceal, so you can always get it. Shrouded stacks with Jink saves, which is awesome on your troops 2+ cover saves when moving flat out is excellent for last turn objective grabs!

if you can successfully cast it...

Park an allied Dark Eldar Raider with grisly trophies next to them. Apparently, Eldar Psykers really get off on them.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Is it just me or is Autarch with Jetbike, Banshee Mask and Shard of Anaris one of the best CC HQs in the game?

Ws6, 4 Base Attacks, I10, Fleshbane, Rending, AP3 Instant Death weapon which strikes at initiative. 130 points.

Where do you get AP3 from? My codex says the shard is AP -... :/

I too am really excited about Banshee Mask + Shard of Anaris. A few things to note, it is worth it to pay the 3 extra points for the scorpion chainsword so that you can get the extra attack for pistol + ccw, since Autarchs don't come with a stock CCW to trade.

But on the Charge, especially with precience or against slaanesh daemons, you've got a model that can topple bloodthristers on the charge. Initiative 6 + banshee mask means only whip coils, lash whips, or Slaanesh Psychics are going to let the enemy outspeed him, and with re-rolls, fleshbane, and instant death in challenges agaisnt monster characters... he makes killing monster characters without iron arm look like childs play, for less than 150 points.

THINK OF THE NARRATIVES!

 akaean wrote:
I too am really excited about Banshee Mask + Shard of Anaris. A few things to note, it is worth it to pay the 3 extra points for the scorpion chainsword so that you can get the extra attack for pistol + ccw, since Autarchs don't come with a stock CCW to trade.

But on the Charge, especially with precience or against slaanesh daemons, you've got a model that can topple bloodthristers on the charge. Initiative 6 + banshee mask means only whip coils, lash whips, or Slaanesh Psychics are going to let the enemy outspeed him, and with re-rolls, fleshbane, and instant death in challenges agaisnt monster characters... he makes killing monster characters without iron arm look like childs play, for less than 150 points.

THINK OF THE NARRATIVES!

In fact, Banshee mask and Shard of Anaris can be pretty destructible against MCs which are not EW.
For this, I'd mount the Autarch on a jetbike for increased mobility and let him join a GJB squad.

 wuestenfux wrote:
In fact, Banshee mask and Shard of Anaris can be pretty destructible against MCs which are not EW.
For this, I'd mount the Autarch on a jetbike for increased mobility and let him join a GJB squad.

And if you're running a unit of Shining Spears I think that sort of Autarch would be pretty much mandatory.

Something that I'm thinking about at the moment (largely because I have an excess of Warp Spider backpacks thanks to a current project) is what sort of use a Warp Spider Autarch would be. In most cases I think that a Jetbike is generally going to be better... but at the moment I don't have any spare Jetbikes. I'm also building a full squad of Warp Spiders, so he'd have a unit to jump around with.

Is that just one of the lower-cost Autarch options? Give him the backpack and a Fusion gun to make sure that the Spiders can definitely blow up a tank? Banshee Mask just in case the Spiders get threatened with being charged?

What I want to know is why on earth are the wrap spider jump pack, jetbike and wings all the same price for the Autarch?

Jetbike gives +1 Toughness, very good mobility
Jump pack gives very good mobility, deep striking chance of death
Wings give....deep striking, slightly better mobility?

Just seems like there's an obvious **** choice, especially if he can't Skyleap.

If you're running Wraith, I hear the five Spiritseers for one HQ are going to be awesome.

This with a Wraithseer?

Puscifer wrote:
If you're running Wraith, I hear the five Spiritseers for one HQ are going to be awesome.

This with a Wraithseer?

I hope there will be a point cost adjustment. The first spiritseer for 70pts is ok, but 5 for that price? Walking around in a single unit? Waiting to see the rules before I get too psyched. (Also, at $20 per, I'll need to find something to convert/kit-bash)

I just hope that they A) Get a decrease and B) Can split off into units of Wraithguard or Wraithblades.

I doubt the former, but I think the latter is a given.

I am having some serious issues choosing my HQ slots. I'll need further playtesting but I am interested in:

Eldrad
Farseer
Spiritseer(Runes of Battle AND can attach after powers to ANY squad)
Autarch for reserve ownership
Ilic for bringing in Reapers off the board edge(even thinking about Banshees...)

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Is it just me or is Autarch with Jetbike, Banshee Mask and Shard of Anaris one of the best CC HQs in the game?

Ws6, 4 Base Attacks, I10, Fleshbane, Rending, AP3 Instant Death weapon which strikes at initiative. 130 points.

the duke has most of that and a 2++. He also buffs an entire DE army. I think he is a pretty bad character


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mandor wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 akaean wrote:
Warlocks are still very good in guardian jetbike squads, remember that the primars power is conceal, so you can always get it. Shrouded stacks with Jink saves, which is awesome on your troops 2+ cover saves when moving flat out is excellent for last turn objective grabs!

if you can successfully cast it...

Park an allied Dark Eldar Raider with grisly trophies next to them. Apparently, Eldar Psykers really get off on them.

also makes them more resistant to MSS

How about running an Avatar and Autarch in a list? Is it now possible to field a decent list without a Farseer/Spiritseer and just having psychic powers via Warlocks?

 Markaret wrote:
How about running an Avatar and Autarch in a list? Is it now possible to field a decent list without a Farseer/Spiritseer and just having psychic powers via Warlocks?

Decent probably, but Farseer powers lend themselves better to most lists IMO. Also the 25% fail rate and single-perils death for warlocks kinda sucks.

This codex revived the Phoenix Lords if I'm not mistaken. Ha, I made a funny, get it?

I for one can't wait to give Asurmen a shot. His Warlord traits make him a great lynchpin HQ. Tank him while he escorts a group of DA up to the middle of the board, support him with a Farseer. Watch him murder in cc with a S5 AP2 I7 weapon...profit. Give his Exarch a diresword as well, and watch units melt.

Jain Zar also seems nasty as well, with a few options for CC weapons that she can throw as well. And now that she can go with someone other than Howling banshees, she seems even better.

Karandras is even nastier than he was before, and his Scorpions got nastier as well. Both he and his Exarch can strike with a Powerfist at Initiative...sick.

Fuegan is still Fuegan, he was a beast before, and will continue to be so.

Baharroth is good only because she is cheap and has her own Grenade Pack, and an AP3 gun. Two blasts per Skyleap, and still shoot...pure shenannigans. May be worth it for grins to run.

Maugan Ra excites me the least, just because I don't own any Reapers and his cc abilities are only AP3.

All in all, I think we are going to have to rely less on Psychic trickery and can play with these cool Phoenix Lords that were supposed to be crazy awesome but were way overcosted/underpowered in 6th with the old codex.

 Homeskillet wrote:
This codex revived the Phoenix Lords if I'm not mistaken. Ha, I made a funny, get it?

I for one can't wait to give Asurmen a shot. His Warlord traits make him a great lynchpin HQ. Tank him while he escorts a group of DA up to the middle of the board, support him with a Farseer. Watch him murder in cc with a S5 AP2 I7 weapon...profit. Give his Exarch a diresword as well, and watch units melt.

Jain Zar also seems nasty as well, with a few options for CC weapons that she can throw as well. And now that she can go with someone other than Howling banshees, she seems even better.

Karandras is even nastier than he was before, and his Scorpions got nastier as well. Both he and his Exarch can strike with a Powerfist at Initiative...sick.

Fuegan is still Fuegan, he was a beast before, and will continue to be so.

Baharroth is good only because she is cheap and has her own Grenade Pack, and an AP3 gun. Two blasts per Skyleap, and still shoot...pure shenannigans. May be worth it for grins to run.

Maugan Ra excites me the least, just because I don't own any Reapers and his cc abilities are only AP3.

All in all, I think we are going to have to rely less on Psychic trickery and can play with these cool Phoenix Lords that were supposed to be crazy awesome but were way overcosted/underpowered in 6th with the old codex.

Just to check, why does Baharroth get to drop a separete blast, and isn't it his sword that is AP3 and he shoots with a Hawk's talon? Otherwise I agree with the list and look forward to trying Asurmen and Karandras

Its not exactly separate. As a swooping Hawk, he has a Grenade pack and at 6 models the pack becomes a large blast. Baharroth is tough enough to field solo and get a small blast out of it for your trouble before joining him to a unit.

Puscifer wrote:
If you're running Wraith, I hear the five Spiritseers for one HQ are going to be awesome.

This with a Wraithseer?

You mean a Wraithseer from FW?

Five Spiritseers on foot holding the centre would be an option. They could cast a lot of spells.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
but I'm intrigued with Jain at the moment. Her 4 AP shots+ 6 AP 2 Strikes at I7 will decimate most units before they have a chance to strike,

And she'll swing at Init 1 when she charges.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
but I'm intrigued with Jain at the moment. Her 4 AP shots+ 6 AP 2 Strikes at I7 will decimate most units before they have a chance to strike,

And she'll swing at Init 1 when she charges.

Yep, because everyone you charge will always be in cover all the time. Always. Totally realistic.

AND they will hit her on a 5+ and have to get through the 2+....so...super big deal? She charges 10 Tacs and they deal .37 wounds !!!!!. Or 10 Grey Hunters WITH banner AND CA might cause 1 whole wound!!!! She just can't survive firepower of that magnitude!!!!! This is also pretending that her S4 AP 2 4 shot failed to kill anything!!!! Not having Nades is such a big deal!!!!!

(It's really not. I can't believe otherwise good players still bring up the Nade argument in, what people keep telling me, is a "shooty" edition...so weird).


Also, I don't know if you noticed, but the whole codex is brimming with pinning and moral tweaking mechanics. I'm pretty sure you could find a way to get around the lack of nades if you really put your mind to it. Of course, I know the latter is asking a lot from some...

Yes, it IS a big deal. She is a demigod of battle, she should come with grenades! Considering Eldar have no assault vehicles that means the banshees will be running up to those tacs, who have AMBLE time to get into cover. Yes your moving 6+D6+4 which is fast, but not faster then a jump pack squad. How come you get to assume he wont be in cover? And how come YOU get to shoot and he doesn't? A ten man Tac squad with plasma and flamer is very cheap and puts 6 bolter wounds on the unit, 1/2 plasma and I Haven't include the Sergeants frag grenade or the flamer. So if you tank on Jain she loses 2 wounds, maybe third to overwatch. Dead Jain.

Also what if she was charging terminators in cover? Jaiai Zar dies to powerfists at the same time she kills about 2/3 Terrms.

Unless you have a great way to keep your P.Lord alive to do its work and make its points back *Such as Veil of tears, seer council, sky leap, infiltrate or a big ass gun* then face it, they are just very expensive beat sticks without grenades.

Phönix Lords are semi-competitive. Too expensive and too less damage output, since the enemy will react to this kind of HQ if he's worth his salt. Hands down.

Why no Ra love?
Maugan Ra has been a favourite choice of mine for years, and i still love him. Sure you can have cheaper HQ and some do have nice toys but ...

As warlord He can split fire, he has a range 36 assault cannon (+ fast shot) and Marksman. That is a 91.5% of getting marksman on at least one of the five shots (38.8% pershot) ... He's always been a great tank killer, and now he can pick off models.

I'm wondering how he'd be if i put him on a quad gun or Icarus lascannon ... incoming plane, fast shot ... plane dead.

I like karandras. Period.

Col. Dash wrote:
Bonesinger and Wraithseer.

What's a Bonesinger