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Space Marines cannot be made from females.

Chaos can mutate a male into a female.

Joan of Arc is considered a "Warrior Woman" by most if not all historians.

Most of the "facts" about her are speculation.

There is only one eye witness drawing of Joan. It's a doodle in the corner of ...bible.. I think.

She was blonde, pretty and had a huge rack. Those are the only facts about her physical traits. Also... she didn't seem to wear armour and is infact holding a banner... not a sword.

I sorta thought the emperor's children already did the sex change trick already

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I believe there's plenty of record for Joan of Arc leading charges and commanding at the front lines, the Siege of Orleans in particular.

Something I never disputed.

Killing? Maybe she did, maybe she didn't, but you don't have to take life to be a warrior.

True, you can also be a martial pacifist, fighting and striking down foes nonlethally. As far as I know though, she didn't do that either.

The mark of a warrior is being willing to die for your brothers in arms, your nation and your sacred honor

Actually the Merriam Webster definition would be someone experienced in warfare, which Joan of Arc would fall under, but I (And I thought others) am using the Oxford definition, which is to say " a brave or experienced soldier or fighter, especially in former times". While you can pretty legitimately argue that she qualifies as a soldier, the inclusion of "fighter" in the definition to me implies that one must partake in the actual cleaving of the enemy army.

and considering the wounds endured by the Maid of Orleans in the field I doubt any can successfully accuse her of cowardice.

Which I never did, mind you.

Under her command and her inspiration entire English armies were shattered and the fortunes of an entire war reversed. Military prowess can be of mind and spirit too, not just your sword arm.

Which doesn't really imply anything about whether or not she is a warrior, IMHO.

Her impact on French moral alone provided a considerable boost to French forces. So even if she didn't take a single life with her own hands, she's responsible for the death of tens of thousands, and saving the lives of similar thousands of then men under her command that with low moral, poor equipment and inept leaders would have been slaughtered like lambs by advancing English forces. More then warrior enough for me by my standards as a warrior myself, commanding and having to spend lives of men and women who put their faith in you can be an even harder task then fighting alone. In any event I look forward to toasting her deeds in the hall of Sessrúmnir when my own time comes.

That's true, she was a very competent commander and orator, but that does not necessarily coincide with being a warrior, IMHO.

I mean, to be honest I have no particular preference on whether or not Joan of Arc killed anyone, I just tend to believe the words of her and her chaplain over what little evidence there is to suggest that she did, in fact, use her sword alongside the men she followed.

I don't really believe she counts as a warrior women in the context of where this thread went in the same vein as, say, Tomoe Gozen who was brought up, or Boudica.

As an aside, are you the type of person who asks modern veterans if they've ever killed any one? I'm just curious.

No, to be perfectly honest I couldn't care less.


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 DeffDred wrote:
She was blonde, pretty and had a huge rack.

Lolwut?

 LoneLictor wrote:
Its kaaaaaaaaaaos that mutates them.

Also, I assumed the only reason there aren't female Sphess Mehrains is because the Imperium is sexist. Kind of like, in real life, how women couldn't be Knights or Samurai.

There were both female knights and female samurai.

Also, the only reason that the boys in this forum want the Imperium to be sexist is because they don't want to be oppressed. But the Imperium doesn't work that way. You're going to be oppressed no matter what gender you are, and you will fething LIKE IT, or you're a heretic.

I'd like to think most of the males in this forum wouldn't really care about fictional men in a fictional setting being oppressed along with the women.

You would be wrong.

I've had numerous conversations with boys on this forum where they were offended at the idea of men in 40k being oppressed just like everyone else. Male privilege is funny like that.

So someone at the very vanguard of battle leading assaults isn't a warrior? A skilled commander who shattered sieges and English defenses with the type of moxy that marks the finest of front line generals isn't knowledgeable in the ways of war? The only reason I ask about your attitude towards veterans is you seem the type to ask that sort of question then make some ridiculous judgement about who around you is or isn't something, and what the actual value of their service was. Even under the Oxford definition I think you could make argument for Joan of Arc as a warrior woman, "Brave and experienced soldier or fighter" well you already agreed she was a soldier, and there's no questioning her courage or her experience in years of brutal warfare during the Hundred Years war. So that satisfies the dictionary I'd say.

I'd also strongly question whether admitting any information from Joan d'Arc's original trial is a good idea, considering it was a kangaroo court that was originally trying to burn her at the stake for witchcraft (they eventually got away with it on a biblical clothing law as I recall, Joan did like her trousers and armor). The retrial of Joan of arc began with an investigation in 1452 by the Inquistion, and ended in 1456 with Joan being declared innocent and a martyr, Pierre Cauchon (deceased at the time) was implicated with heresy for convicting an innocent woman and putting her to death, basically in the name of England.

DeffDred wrote:
She was blonde, pretty and had a huge rack.

Well, that explains so much about why so many men were willing to follow a 15 year old girl with no qualifications to lead an army.

DeffDred wrote:Also... she didn't seem to wear armour

whut

Yeah no calling that claim BS, blonde maybe, dumb enough to go unarmored into a fight? Doubtful. Especially when she's becoming a very serious symbol for the French military.

Oh, I wouldn't necessarily deem her not "dumb enough" to go into a fight unarmoured. She was a fanatic, after all. Yet as her value was recognised, people would surely have started to look out for her health.

Anyways, according to Orleans' tourism center:
"Known as plate armour or white harness, the armour purchased for Joan was probably of mediocre quality, as indicated by the relatively modest sum given over for its purchase. Also, it was not intended for Joan to use it in hand to hand fighting; rather it was to protect her from arrows shot from a distance. Despite this, Joan wanted whenever possible to join in the attacks. It is thus that she was twice wounded by an arrow and once by a stone, and she finally left her armour as a votive offering in the Abbey church of Saint Denis. When the town of Saint Denis was retaken by the English in 1430, the armour was removed from the church and disappeared."
-- http://www.tourisme-orleans.com/home/files/ville_art_et_histoire-joan_of_arc-version_gb.pdf

Some sources claim she had a second suit of armour, too, whose history is even less detailed. It could explain the difference in the visor on the suit found by that antiques dealer in the newspaper article ...
... alternatively, the suit in his possession did not belong to Jeanne at all and was made for a different girl like Jeanne-Claude des Armoises - who did, after all, impersonate Jeanne d'Arc for a while, before becoming a mercenary captain in the army of French Marshal Gilles de Rais.
Yet even then, if the museum curator's criticism is valid, then Jeanne simply wore a different suit of armour (or at least a different helmet), rather than none at all.

Melissia wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:Its kaaaaaaaaaaos that mutates them.

Also, I assumed the only reason there aren't female Sphess Mehrains is because the Imperium is sexist. Kind of like, in real life, how women couldn't be Knights or Samurai.

There were both female knights and female samurai.

Also, the only reason that the boys in this forum want the Imperium to be sexist is because they don't want to be oppressed. But the Imperium doesn't work that way. You're going to be oppressed no matter what gender you are, and you will fething LIKE IT, or you're a heretic.

Yes, clearly the only reason anyone would ever disagree with Melissia is because they have personal problems.

Ignored.

Lyn I don't equate fanaticism with "suicidal"

 LoneLictor wrote:
Yes, clearly the only reason anyone would ever disagree with Melissia is because they have personal problems.

The Imperium is not a nice place to live-- it is omni-oppressive, and it treats people as little more than numbers in a flow chart. Entire worlds are lost because of rounding errors. People are conscripted and sent by the millions to die in pointless wars. When it isn't fighting other people the Imperium often finds itself in civil war, fighting itself. It would actually be LESS grimdark to have men be given some special privilege to not be oppressed.

IT doesn't matter what gender you are. The Imperium will take you, chew you up, and spit you out, and you will either die alone and unloved, or you will die a horrible, hideous, painful. screaming death. Or both at the same time.

 Lynata wrote:
As mentioned, there really isn't much sense in purposefully switching an Astartes' gender. They exist only to fight and die for the Imperial cause, and something as trivial as gender is completely irrelevant to them. Indeed, it could be argued that as of their ascension they are not even male anymore. They are heavily indoctrinated machines of flesh and blood, bred for war and equipped with some of the best weapons and armour the Imperium can procure.

An excellent point, useful for future threads - Space Marines are as sexless as Orks, technically.

 Ouze wrote:
An excellent point, useful for future threads - Space Marines are as sexless as Orks, technically.

I wouldn't disagree, but given the number of threads we had where people said "space marines have sex" or something similar, I think you'll find there's a subculture that would.

 Melissia wrote:
I wouldn't disagree, but given the number of threads we had where people said "space marines have sex" or something similar,

Link.

Didn't one of the BL books feature Space Wolves leering at/taking notice of pretty girls at one point? Maybe something unique to the canis helix?

This thread will end well. I can tell.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Jean d'Arc was not a female warrior. She never killed anyone.


Joan of Arc: I loved my banner forty times greater than my sword. And when I went against the enemy, I carried my banner myself, lest I kill any. I have never killed a man.

Geez, the difference a single letter can make. When I first read this I thought it said:

Joan of Arc loved my banner forty times greater than my sword. And when I went against the enemy, I carried my banner myself, lest I kill any.

I'm tired and my mind's rolling into the gutter.

Anyways, female bodies are not designed for combat - smaller hands and feet, narrow shoulders, smaller, less muscle, weaker bone structure.

Here's a question, assuming they keep their tackle, do chaos/renegade marines commit rape?

cadbren wrote:Anyways, female bodies are not designed for combat - smaller hands and feet, narrow shoulders, smaller, less muscle, weaker bone structure.

That depends on the combat technique you're employing. The onna-bugeisha were reputedly fairly good with their naginatas, quick to move and thus harder to hit, whilst using that weapon's longer reach to balance out their shorter stature.

training > innate characteristics


Also, you make it sound as if there was no female that looked more muscular and "manly" than any man, ever. Human bodies are not that uniform, and gender is a more fluid concept than a lot of people seem (or prefer) to assume.

My idea of how the average SoB looks like

cadbren wrote:Here's a question, assuming they keep their tackle, do chaos/renegade marines commit rape?

Personally, I don't believe they do get to keep it - but they may regain it due to Warp corruption. And I could well imagine some Slaaneshi CSM in particular being fond of enjoying themselves with their prisoners and slaves (probably even of both genders). Not all, mind you, as sex is just one possible aspect/domain of Slaanesh, albeit one that should not be forgotten.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Melissia wrote:]I wouldn't disagree, but given the number of threads we had where people said "space marines have sex" or something similar,

Link.

Here's one.
And here.
And another.
Oh, look.
The list goes on...

But it mostly seems to be recurring one-offs by various individuals that get resolved quickly. On dakka, it's certainly not as bad as on the FFG forums. If you want a good laugh during your break, check out this beast of a thread. Or this one, although that's "only" 12 pages.

Females can't become Space Marines period, sorry but the whole biology states the Space Marines must be males, and most of the males dies when becoming Space Marines. And why should any Space Marine want to change gender? The Emperor made a mistake seems a bit ludicrous to get away with. The only Space Marines I imagine changing sex is those who worship Slaanesh. I don't think Khornate Space Marines would change their gender just to experience PMS, or Tzeentch for reasons I can't even fathom, or Nurgle as they might want to experience the female only diseases, but his blessings doesn't work in that way.

cadbren wrote:


Anyways, female bodies are not designed for combat - smaller hands and feet, narrow shoulders, smaller, less muscle, weaker bone structure.

Considering the sheer number of historical examples given we can safely call that BS for the most part, and in the modern age as weapons have switched from tasks that require strength to killing methods that are more about finesse and hand eye coordination (which females tend to excel at, see the studies that show women make better welders for example) I'll let the fine women of the IDF's combat divisions, Canadian Army infantry and U.S. Military's Female Engagement Teams and the Lioness program's (not to mention female Marines in general) record speak for themselves. It takes an exceptional woman certainly, but it takes an exceptional human being to sign up in the first place. Even more so to join a difficult job field like the infantry or a difficult service like the Marine Corps. As we advance into the future it'll matter even less. Power armor knows no gender. (See Ripley's power loader if you'd like to know more). Hell this teenage girl does a pretty damn good job with basic combat skills and again, she's thirteen.

You mention the IDF but not the Russian VDV? I am disappoint.

But wow, that vid is impressive, especially considering the age.

There is a point where you have to take a look at things and realize way to much thought is going into the make believe.

Discussing whether or not Space Marines can have a sex change... yeah, that may be that point.

As much as I like the concept of female space marines, know that while I suppose -female- space marines could be possible if not for GW's "It only works on men" line, -feminine- space marine's, are impossible. Why? The process of becoming a space marine causes you to become 7 foot tall, muscle laden, hugely barrel-chested monstrosities.



As this shows.

As such, I wouldn't hate someone for making a female space marine chapter. I would disagree, however, with a female space marine chapter, who was visually distinct from a male space marine chapter. IF female space marines were possible, they would look identical to male space marines, not like sisters of battle.

 djones520 wrote:
There is a point where you have to take a look at things and realize way to much thought is going into the make believe.

Discussing whether or not Space Marines can have a sex change... yeah, that may be that point.

but but but they are little plastic figures, if I want shemales, give me shemales!

Total kidding aside, model whatever you want who cares about what the fluff says.

I am monitoring this thread.

And not because I am the least bit interested in the topic.

 Lynata wrote:
You mention the IDF but not the Russian VDV? I am disappoint.

But wow, that vid is impressive, especially considering the age.

I didn't know the VDV had active female members that had passed their airborne and infantry training requirements.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:I didn't know the VDV had active female members that had passed their airborne and infantry training requirements.

It's a fairly recent thing - they've only been allowed in since 2008, and as they have to pass the very same requirements as male paratroopers there ain't a lot of them yet.

From what I've read, the Russian military had gradually scaled back the participation of women after WW2, although it never pushed them out entirely. Now, they've started to increase recruitment from amongst the female population again. Some new policies from their current defense minister, iirc, or maybe it was his predecessor.