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Aren't marines recruited and forced surgery before their teen years anyway? I thought i heard that makes you qualify for most of the surgeries. In a way you might think space marines are still technically boys if they get 'castrated' before they come of age. Depends what you want to think of it though. Maybe that's why they have the emotional depth of young boys often ;P

I kind of get part of the other guy's point though. It's just humans aren't a species where size and strength isn't as big of an issue. In some species (such as spiders) the female can be many times larger than the male and during mating the male could be mistaken for food by the female spider. However even in the case of say Skaven for warhammer fantasy their women are large but few in number and usually are kept to breeding though they are seen in battle. I think this is an example of one of their brood beasts which i'm pretty sure is female.

Given that Space Marines are functionally genderless, what would be the point? Why would a Space Marine bother undergoing such an operation? Not to mention that given all the alterations would it actually change much? You wouldn't be able to put beards on the Space Wolves, but other than that...?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Given that Space Marines are functionally genderless

Given that the end result is supposedly functionally genderless, what's the point of having it only be male to begin with?

Marines are huge masses of fused bones, muscles, armored skin and a near-psychotic combat drive. Secondary female characteristics like breasts and swaying hips will just not be there, as seen with those Eastern Bloc "female" athletes in sports like weightlifting, sledge throwing etc.

There would be no way of telling the difference without groping the marine's groin, and the knowledge would die with you.

 Melissia wrote:
Never mind that a brother and sister are genetically closer than the brother and a guy from a different family, and thus the only way that it could really work the way that GW thinks it does is if there's serious amounts of inbreeding...

So if you found a guy attractive but he already had a girlfriend, then his sister would be fair game because she's closer genetically to him than some other guy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those eastern bloc "women" still can't compete with the men.

 Melissia wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Given that Space Marines are functionally genderless

Given that the end result is supposedly functionally genderless, what's the point of having it only be male to begin with?

Sex =/= gender.

I'm still confused as to what the point of said surgery would be. For one thing, given the weight of Space Marine armor and assuming that they put some actual thought and effort into making functional armor rather than fantasy girly armor with molded breasts, even if there were female Space Marines in this day and age could you really tell the difference?

 Lynata wrote:

DeffDred wrote:Also... she didn't seem to wear armour

whut

To clearify:

I was quoting from the book "Women Warriors". A fantastic book that taught me more about the history of the Amazons than any other publication.

That book also has a picture of the ONLY KNOWN IMAGE OF JOAN OF ARC "from her time period".

In other words. The only eyewitness account. It is, infact, a doodle.

Doodles often point out the major features of person when drawn by the untalented.

Your link to a "possible" set of Joans armour is a bit silly. Just because a suit fits a young woman does not instantly mean its Joans.

That's a bit like saying "Hey I found two planks of wood in my backyard with blood on them! Clearly this is the cross Jesus was crusified on!"

Well I do have the cross Jesus was crucified on in my backyard though.

I have to be honest and say, that despite the whole "Women can't be marines" thing in the 40k fluff, the fluff itself, is rarely if ever sexist. Women fulfill multiple roles within the fluff-storyline, including ship commanders, astropaths, areas in command of the guard, that kind of thing. It would be nice, however, to see a few of these thing's actually represented in the army's. I'd really like to see, for example, a female imperial guard character or two, even if it's just in the form of a squad upgrade character or something along those lines. I could also see a space marine chapter, taking on a particularly potent female psyker, who has not gone through the process of becoming astartes, but is permitted to wear power armour, due to the need to protect such a powerful asset to the chapter in particular. Perhaps a female psyker from a homeworld of one of the chapters, who was too powerful, and in control of their power, to simply be fodder for the black ships, who works in a support role to a chapter as a character psyker, who has power Armour, but toughness 3 and strength 3, to represent being human rather than astartes, but can bring powerful psychic-based rules.

It's allready established that normal humans can and have worn power armour in fluff, so it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination in my mind

 Evileyes wrote:
I have to be honest and say, that despite the whole "Women can't be marines" thing in the 40k fluff, the fluff itself, is rarely if ever sexist. Women fulfill multiple roles within the fluff-storyline, including ship commanders, astropaths, areas in command of the guard, that kind of thing. It would be nice, however, to see a few of these thing's actually represented in the army's. I'd really like to see, for example, a female imperial guard character or two, even if it's just in the form of a squad upgrade character or something along those lines. I could also see a space marine chapter, taking on a particularly potent female psyker, who has not gone through the process of becoming astartes, but is permitted to wear power armour, due to the need to protect such a powerful asset to the chapter in particular. Perhaps a female psyker from a homeworld of one of the chapters, who was too powerful, and in control of their power, to simply be fodder for the black ships, who works in a support role to a chapter as a character psyker, who has power Armour, but toughness 3 and strength 3, to represent being human rather than astartes, but can bring powerful psychic-based rules.

It's allready established that normal humans can and have worn power armour in fluff, so it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination in my mind

1.The already have powerful psykers. They are called Librarians. Not only are Librarians less prone to the predations of the warp than normal psykers (At least, that's my impression I could be wrong) but they are far, far more durable. These Librarians can also use much more of the Space Marine armory (Drop Pods, Terminator Armor etc). They can also keep up with their bretheren in every way whereas normals human couldn't hope to. Space Marines often go on extremely dangerous missions that would kill any normal humans. If a normal human psyker was brought with them, he or she would be a liability.

2. Such powerful psykers are A)Evil or B) Gobbled up by the highers powers in the Imperium. Your psyker is more likely to end up either an Inquisitor or part of one's retinue (And would make for a pretty cool Inquisitor, imo)

3. Space Marines are all about tradition. They think that old is better (Because it often is). Having normal humans as battle psykers is very much against tradition. Whether excluding females is part of that tradition as well is probably wrong since the Space Marines aren't particularly sexist.

As for the topic, why would a Space Marine want to get a sex change operation? To look pretty? They are heavily indoctrinated, I'm sure the idea that they "Feel like a woman on the inside" has been removed from their minds a long time ago with the rest of their humanity.

On a side note, the Emperor could have coded the geneseed to work on women but he didn't. Why not? Maybe because the Emperor himself is a little sexist? He is from a time where women weren't typically used as warriors and maybe that line of thinking was subconsciously translated during the creation of the Astartes.

Space Marine Librarians actually do make use of mortal psykers for more mundane tasks, but these psykers are not as powerful as the Librarians.

 TheCustomLime wrote:


1.The already have powerful psykers. They are called Librarians.

Yes... Aren't they usually the psykers left after the Inquisition has taken their pick of the best? Not powerful enough to be interesting but not weak enough to be consigned to Astropaths or sacrifices?

It's an interesting question. Chapters with their own planets to recruit from would be immune to the predations of the Inquisition regardless though. However, Chapters that didn't would be forced to recruit from the masses..

On the other hand, you may be overestimating the reach of the Inquisition. They aren't omniscient, which is why cults and the such have the ability to occasionally rise on some planets before being crushed/get out of control. If the Inquisition was able to track and eliminate/recruit every psyker ever, no such thing would be able to happen.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
IOn the other hand, you may be overestimating the reach of the Inquisition. If the Inquisition was able to track and eliminate/recruit every psyker ever, no such thing would be able to happen.

Still, every Imperial Governor (which includes marine Chapter Masters ruling their own fief) have a duty to control psykers within their territory. It's not a matter of sovereignity, it's a matter of Imperial concern. Psykers must be contained, or destroyed, or handed over to the Black Ships. A Chapter that keeps the best psychic recruits and sends in none will get in trouble, though they'll probably get away with it for a long time if they're useful to the Empire.

 Dakkamite wrote:


If you really want female marines, your gaking on the fluff anyway so just go ahead and take them. Most people won't care, and the ones that do, well, it'll be hilarious to watch their reactions

exactly this.

i'm sure there are millions of explanations for having female marines that make as much sense as some of the fluff does. do it anyway and watch sexist fanboys gak their pants with rage.

 daddyorchips wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:


If you really want female marines, your gaking on the fluff anyway so just go ahead and take them. Most people won't care, and the ones that do, well, it'll be hilarious to watch their reactions

exactly this.

i'm sure there are millions of explanations for having female marines that make as much sense as some of the fluff does. do it anyway and watch sexist fanboys gak their pants with rage.

Slaaneshi Marines? Warp mutations? A female military organization that got it's hands on power armor/boltguns?

Spetulhu wrote:Yes... Aren't they usually the psykers left after the Inquisition has taken their pick of the best? Not powerful enough to be interesting but not weak enough to be consigned to Astropaths or sacrifices?

Depends on the Chapter - at least if we'd be going by GW's own fluff:

"Those initiates displaying the required psychic talent and willpower are inducted into the Librarium, where they commence their intensive years of study and development in conjunction with the strict training of their brother Space Marines. These initiates are recruited from a variety of sources, depending on the means and position of the Space Marine home world or Chapter-Fortress. Some Chapters recruit their Librarians solely from amongst those chosen as potential Space Marines, while other Chapters select their number from amongst the most talented and disciplined of young Primaris Psykers of the Scholastica Psykana."
- Index Astartes online backup


OT:

DeffDred wrote:To clearify:
I was quoting from the book "Women Warriors". A fantastic book that taught me more about the history of the Amazons than any other publication.
That book also has a picture of the ONLY KNOWN IMAGE OF JOAN OF ARC "from her time period".
In other words. The only eyewitness account. It is, infact, a doodle.
Doodles often point out the major features of person when drawn by the untalented.

There are other eyewitness accounts who describe her with white armour, though, and there is reputedly a bill (100 louvres) for the purchase of said suit.
And, as noted in history, she left her armour behind at the Abbey of Saint Denis, so any image depicting her after this point would have her miss the suit. This is also documented in the records of her trial, where she was asked about her armour and weapons:

Asked if she ever prayed for her sword to have better fortune, she answered: "It is well to know that I could have wished my armor (in French "mon harnois") to have good fortune."
Asked where this sword was, and in what town, she answered that she offered a sword and armor at St. Denis, but not this sword.
Asked what arms she offered in the church of St. Denis, she answered that she offered a whole suit of white armor, in French "un blanc harnoys," fitting for a man-at-arms, with the sword she won before Paris.
- http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/joanofarc-trial.html

Also:

Of course it could well be argued that those might be flawed artist inspirations, yet they were made after the descriptions of her time, and I don't see why one of these eyewitnesses accounts should be either more or less valuable than another.

It's the first time I'm hearing about this, too, and history seems pretty established regarding her white armour. Although that need not mean much, of course, as we keep discovering evidence that not everything was as we were told by our forefathers. Is that drawing the only thing that book bases its statement on, or is there more to it?

DeffDred wrote:Your link to a "possible" set of Joans armour is a bit silly. Just because a suit fits a young woman does not instantly mean its Joans.
That's a bit like saying "Hey I found two planks of wood in my backyard with blood on them! Clearly this is the cross Jesus was crusified on!"

Not really. It's worth noting that the only criticism from professional historians is that the helmet does not look like the one Jeanne was reported to wear.
... which would mean she must have worn armour, just (possibly) a different one.

I don't believe it is hers, myself, as I reckon it just would not be in France anymore - that's why I mentioned the possibility of it perhaps belonging to Jeanne-Claude des Armoises, who had impersonated her for some time before becoming a mercenary.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
IOn the other hand, you may be overestimating the reach of the Inquisition. If the Inquisition was able to track and eliminate/recruit every psyker ever, no such thing would be able to happen.

Still, every Imperial Governor (which includes marine Chapter Masters ruling their own fief) have a duty to control psykers within their territory. It's not a matter of sovereignity, it's a matter of Imperial concern. Psykers must be contained, or destroyed, or handed over to the Black Ships. A Chapter that keeps the best psychic recruits and sends in none will get in trouble, though they'll probably get away with it for a long time if they're useful to the Empire.

Actually psykers are part of the tax a planet pays IIRC and SM chapters pay no tax so they probably don't donate their psykers...
I'd imagine they do have various ways of keeping them in check however...

Spetulhu wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
IOn the other hand, you may be overestimating the reach of the Inquisition. If the Inquisition was able to track and eliminate/recruit every psyker ever, no such thing would be able to happen.

Still, every Imperial Governor (which includes marine Chapter Masters ruling their own fief) have a duty to control psykers within their territory. It's not a matter of sovereignity, it's a matter of Imperial concern. Psykers must be contained, or destroyed, or handed over to the Black Ships.

It isn't about jurisdiction, it's about capability.

A Chapter that keeps the best psychic recruits and sends in none will get in trouble, though they'll probably get away with it for a long time if they're useful to the Empire.

Wrong. Chapter planets are independent of all but nominal Imperial control. They do not tithe. It's never been explored what Space Marine Chapter planets do about their extra psykers, but the best assumption is that it's in line with the rest of the fluff, and they do what they want with them. Which could be "Donate to Imperium", but it could just as well be "Utilize or execute."

Space Marine Chapters, as a general rule, hate playing nice with the Imperium's administrative elements. The last thing they want are Imperial agents snooping around their planets searching for rogue psykers. They probably have their own psychic Chapter Serfs, or Librarians that do that.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Gender identity is only an issue in institutions where gender is a factor. The Space Marines are not such an institution. Any imprints of your natural personality are obliterated, and there's no concept of male or female gender, everyone is just a Marine. And since the Space Marines can only be male (sexually). that would be the sole gender identity for them to have.

It's a rather difficult concept to wrap your head around sometimes, since we're all so used to a two-gender society. But Space Marines are not. They don't see themselves as human, and aren't concerned with most things we think of as "normal". So even coming into contact with female serfs, or IGuard, they wouldn't see the female gender roles as applicable to themselves anyway.

This ^, read the old Grey Knight omnibus and you'll find the Grey Knight under a female Inquisitor doesn't really understand the concept of sexuality.

That was a funny section of the book