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I know that the subject on this line probably looks like a troll - but hear me out.

So we know that the female form for some reason doesn't take too well to the process of being made into a Space Marine.

But what's to stop matured Marines from cosmetically altering themselves?

I started thinking down this line when I saw another Dakkaite had a female Slaanesh Marine army. I figured it made sense - surely followers of the God of excess could undergo certain procedures? Warp themselves a little? Could formerly male CSM become female CSM?

Its kaaaaaaaaaaos that mutates them.

Also, I assumed the only reason there aren't female Sphess Mehrains is because the Imperium is sexist. Kind of like, in real life, how women couldn't be Knights or Samurai.

The biological process of transforming mortal into Marine only works on men. But, if you were to introduce some Slaaneshi loving into the equation, yes they could.

Well they'd be on so many steroids that they'd look like a man. Just put a wig on a space marine and it'd look the same.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Also, I assumed the only reason there aren't female Sphess Mehrains is because the Imperium is sexist. Kind of like, in real life, how women couldn't be Knights or Samurai.

Gender roles in the Imperium really do vary a lot between planets. For example, there's an Imperial planet in one of the Cain books where women are the ruling gender in society. Conversely, Krieg women basically exist to do little else than pump out babies.

And on an overall scale, I'd say that the Imperium isn't all that sexist. They deploy female IG regiments, and the soldiers of the church are all women. Though this gender equality probably isn't born out of genuine desire for equality, but more out of necessity. The Imperium needs all the bodies it can muster, after all.

 Troike wrote:
Conversely, Krieg women basically exist to do little else than pump out babies.

You mean Krieg cloning vats exist to make more guardsmen. Why waste half your population on making more babies when they could be dying gloriously for the Emperor?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Troike wrote:
Conversely, Krieg women basically exist to do little else than pump out babies.

You mean Krieg cloning vats exist to make more guardsmen. Why waste half your population on making more babies when they could be dying gloriously for the Emperor?

Oh? I thought there was some fluff about Kriegers being given pills to make their women more fertile? And I think that Dead Men Walking mentions that Krieg women stay in the bunkers back home.

Approximiately 0% of marines would want this.

If you really want female marines, your gaking on the fluff anyway so just go ahead and take them. Most people won't care, and the ones that do, well, it'll be hilarious to watch their reactions

Loyalist Marines wouldn't get sex changes for the same reasons our current militaries don't get state-provided manicures. It's not necessary for a fighting force - it's at best a distraction and at worst a waste of time and money.
Slaanesh, on the other hand... anything goes... we know unusual surgical enhancements are possible thanks to Fabius Bile, but chaos mutations are perhaps more likely.

If you are talking an actual sex change as practiced today it would probably fail. The body would possibly reject the female organs entirely. If they were accepted the change in hormones would possibly cause issues with the normal Astartes body processes.

So basically, unless Chaos is involved its not going to work or happen. A loyalist marine would have no reason or desire to alter his gender, particularly since marines don't really go for sex even as a diversion much less reproduction.

Chaos of course can do anything to your body with mutation.


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 Peregrine wrote:

 Troike wrote:
Conversely, Krieg women basically exist to do little else than pump out babies.

You mean Krieg cloning vats exist to make more guardsmen. Why waste half your population on making more babies when they could be dying gloriously for the Emperor?

The DKoK aren't cloned. While they do use the Vitae Womb to grow the babies they still need the women to actually make the eggs in the first place.

From what I've read about it, it appears each Women has her eggs collected monthly, which are then artificially fertilized and put in the Vitae Womb. Which is really just a test tube to grow the baby out in.

As mentioned, there really isn't much sense in purposefully switching an Astartes' gender. They exist only to fight and die for the Imperial cause, and something as trivial as gender is completely irrelevant to them. Indeed, it could be argued that as of their ascension they are not even male anymore. They are heavily indoctrinated machines of flesh and blood, bred for war and equipped with some of the best weapons and armour the Imperium can procure.

As jifel mentioned, Chaos/Slaanesh would be a possible option if you intend not to stray too far from studio fluff, though. Or you simply disregard everything and go through with your idea. There is no such thing as a "canonical truth" for 40k fluff, after all. Be prepared to face ongoing criticism from other fans, however, as this step really is a bit extreme ... and unnecessary, I'd say (if you want the female equivalent to Marines, why not turn to the Sororitas?).

LoneLictor wrote:Kind of like, in real life, how women couldn't be Knights or Samurai.

Actually there were female knights and female samurai. It's just not talked about much because society still has a bit of an issue with the role of women and such information thus wasn't really popular during the past few dozen decades. It is only thanks to some officials' meticulous record-keeping and ongoing findings in archaeology that even today we still find out about those things our forefathers (heh) simply did not bother to pass on to succeeding generations.

And the Imperium is not sexist. Individual planets could be (with both patriarchies as well as matriarchies), but the Imperium as a whole ... well, see Sisters of Battle, or the female High Lords and Inquisitors.

Gender identity is only an issue in institutions where gender is a factor. The Space Marines are not such an institution. Any imprints of your natural personality are obliterated, and there's no concept of male or female gender, everyone is just a Marine. And since the Space Marines can only be male (sexually). that would be the sole gender identity for them to have.

It's a rather difficult concept to wrap your head around sometimes, since we're all so used to a two-gender society. But Space Marines are not. They don't see themselves as human, and aren't concerned with most things we think of as "normal". So even coming into contact with female serfs, or IGuard, they wouldn't see the female gender roles as applicable to themselves anyway.

I think this is actually a rather novel take on the 'female marines' concept. I don't think it fits with loyalists, but I can definitely see Chaos marines doing it. Some might do it for some Slaanesh worship, some might do it for some Tzeentch worship (it IS a pretty drastic change!) and some might do it just to spite the will of the Imperium. (Since it wasn't how the god-Emperor made them.) I could DEFINITELY see some Chaos apothecary (Fabius BIle? Variel?) trying to turn a Chaos marine into a woman as part of a long term process to circumvent the geneseed shortage by taking a step-by-step approach to breeding Space Marines. (Yes, I know they aren't fertile. That's why this is the first step in the process. )

Definitely an interesting question.

Indeed, of course I can't see the marine being the initiator of such an action. It would be more of a chaos mutation thingy and then the marine finding out what he can now do.

 Lynata wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:Kind of like, in real life, how women couldn't be Knights or Samurai.

Actually there were female knights and female samurai. It's just not talked about much because society still has a bit of an issue with the role of women and such information thus wasn't really popular during the past few dozen decades. It is only thanks to some officials' meticulous record-keeping and ongoing findings in archaeology that even today we still find out about those things our forefathers (heh) simply did not bother to pass on to succeeding generations.

And the Imperium is not sexist. Individual planets could be (with both patriarchies as well as matriarchies), but the Imperium as a whole ... well, see Sisters of Battle, or the female High Lords and Inquisitors.

The Hakagure (Hidden Leaves, a book of collected knowledge of a samurai lord as written by one of his retainers) relates a couple incidents where women either took up arms themselves to fight with their wimpier husbands in their wake or when push came to shove were more then happy to ditch the "docile" routine and play the curb stomp head smash game in the name of the family honor. On the European side of the world Boudicca of the Celts burned London to the ground and shattered multiple Roman Legions, nearly forcing the Emperor to abandon Britannia. Jeanne d'Arc (aka "Joan", "The Maid of Orleans" and "The crazy chick who says she talks to God") lead no gak armies at the age of 15 and was said to be damn good at what she did. I think there's some historical reality to the legend of Hua Mulan (a real Chinese legend at least) as well. Those are just some famous examples.

Jean d'Arc was not a female warrior. She never killed anyone.


Joan of Arc: I loved my banner forty times greater than my sword. And when I went against the enemy, I carried my banner myself, lest I kill any. I have never killed a man.

She was warrior enough not to get killed on a battlefield, which is harder than you seem to think.

Fact is, she was probably lying when she said that since she said it at her trial to avoid being burned at the stake.

Which is one of the most admirable things about her, I think: Everyone knows that she went to the stake without regrets and with her head held high, but it's not as popular to relate the fact that she tried damn hard to avoid it too.

Also, to anyone who says there were no female samurai: Tomoe Gozen would like to have a word or two with you.

I don't know what disturbs me the most, the fact that the question is asked, or the fact that it seems to be taken seriously...

Dude.

Seriously.

Why would it disturb you? You got something against T-girls? :p

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 Furyou Miko wrote:
She was warrior enough not to get killed on a battlefield, which is harder than you seem to think.

True, she had taken injures in battle, such as cannonballs to the helmet or a crossbow bolt, but enduring pain, while a testament to one's mental and physical fortitude and admirable, does not make one a warrior, as I would see it.

Fact is, she was probably lying when she said that since she said it at her trial to avoid being burned at the stake.

Perhaps, but that's speculation regardless.

What evidence exists of her actually fighting and killing alongside her men?

Which is one of the most admirable things about her, I think: Everyone knows that she went to the stake without regrets and with her head held high, but it's not as popular to relate the fact that she tried damn hard to avoid it too.

To be honest, if she would besmirch her own personal honor to lie and say she did not kill others, when she actually had, I can't see it as going to the stake without regrets and with her head held high. Seems like having your cake and eating it too.


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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Why would it disturb you? You got something against T-girls? :p

Well, I don't find it disturbing, but as a question it doesn't hold much validity IMO. Veteran Sergeant basically illustrated why. Whether a Marine has something hanging between their legs or not would mean basically nothing to them.

Well, maybe an Emperor's Child...

It's an odd way of thinking that when presented with a genetically modified super human armoured in technological relics of a bygone golden age and armed with a gun capable of blowing people to teeny tiny bits they instantly say 'Does it come in female?' (The other side of this is 'Is there a Chaos version?' and 'have the Orks looted it?' )
They could emphasise the genderless aspect of SM more but that would be kinda odd and they would probably be less popular as a result.

Fluff-wise, I don't think Marines really have any concept of gender after they're changed. They're probably more like machines at that point. When they begin to forge a personality after their transformation is complete I don't think they do it thinking of themselves as "men," I think they do it thinking of themselves as "Marines." They are aware that there are ordinary humans with two sexes, but they are far removed from those days by that point.

That said, if the next SM Codex dropped in a casual mention of a female Space Marine as if they'd always been around (yes, I know it will never happen) I'd find it hilarious. The upheaval!

 Void__Dragon wrote:
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 Furyou Miko wrote:
She was warrior enough not to get killed on a battlefield, which is harder than you seem to think.

True, she had taken injures in battle, such as cannonballs to the helmet or a crossbow bolt, but enduring pain, while a testament to one's mental and physical fortitude and admirable, does not make one a warrior, as I would see it.

Fact is, she was probably lying when she said that since she said it at her trial to avoid being burned at the stake.

Perhaps, but that's speculation regardless.

What evidence exists of her actually fighting and killing alongside her men?
.

I believe there's plenty of record for Joan of Arc leading charges and commanding at the front lines, the Siege of Orleans in particular. Killing? Maybe she did, maybe she didn't, but you don't have to take life to be a warrior. The mark of a warrior is being willing to die for your brothers in arms, your nation and your sacred honor and considering the wounds endured by the Maid of Orleans in the field I doubt any can successfully accuse her of cowardice. Under her command and her inspiration entire English armies were shattered and the fortunes of an entire war reversed. Military prowess can be of mind and spirit too, not just your sword arm. Her impact on French moral alone provided a considerable boost to French forces. So even if she didn't take a single life with her own hands, she's responsible for the death of tens of thousands, and saving the lives of similar thousands of then men under her command that with low moral, poor equipment and inept leaders would have been slaughtered like lambs by advancing English forces. More then warrior enough for me by my standards as a warrior myself, commanding and having to spend lives of men and women who put their faith in you can be an even harder task then fighting alone. In any event I look forward to toasting her deeds in the hall of Sessrúmnir when my own time comes.

As an aside, are you the type of person who asks modern veterans if they've ever killed any one? I'm just curious.

Jimsolo wrote:I could DEFINITELY see some Chaos apothecary (Fabius BIle? Variel?) trying to turn a Chaos marine into a woman as part of a long term process to circumvent the geneseed shortage by taking a step-by-step approach to breeding Space Marines. (Yes, I know they aren't fertile. That's why this is the first step in the process. )

Wouldn't this be kinda counter-productive, given that they get killed in battle? I do remember there was some story (probably in some BL novel) about someone experimenting with fully-grown Chaos Marines being born from Warp-mutated women (kind of like the Brood Mothers in Dragon Age I guess), but why would you put the means to breeding into combat when you can segregate them into focused roles, with one just fighting the whole time, and the other just being pregnant the whole time?

Unless ... hmm, unless somebody really wanted to turn the Space Marines from being a tool of war into an entirely new species, a "New Human". Was that what you were hinting at?
I've speculated in the past that the Emperor's scientists may have deliberately introduced the geneseed limitation to prevent that sort of thing...

Void__Dragon wrote:To be honest, if she would besmirch her own personal honor to lie and say she did not kill others, when she actually had, I can't see it as going to the stake without regrets and with her head held high. Seems like having your cake and eating it too.

Well, as per historical records she lied anyways as she recanted her abjuration. It's certainly difficult to tell what she was pushed to say in front of the court, what was put in her mouth, and what actually happened.

I don't assume she killed anyone myself, but then again ... who knows? It could easily have happened (especially when she was truly as fanatical as contemporary sources make her out to be), and there isn't any evidence she has not killed anybody either.

Anyways, Jeanne d'Arc is a popular example of a female warrior, but - just like the female IDF troops - she is a flawed one as far as actual combat is involved. History has better examples to offer, from female knights (see previous link), female raiders (Grace O'Malley), mercenaries (Capitan Jeanne des Armoises) and militia troops in medieval Europe (Bridport Muster Roll of 1457) all the way to the so-called amazons of the Dahomey Empire or the Russian women in WW1/WW2/today. I really don't know why these examples aren't talked about more than the former, and can only explain it with them just not being known well enough in "popular history", similar to how homosexuality amongst the samurai is something you almost never read about as it conflicts with the image usually propagated. It's not difficult to see that later society had an interest in steering common perception away from the truth in both regards.

Don't get me wrong, though, the Maid of Orleans was undoubtedly courageous, more courageous than many men of her time (a good example for the power of fanatism, to slowly twist that discussion back to 40k - she is indeed a perfect inspiration for the Sisters of Battle), and I am certainly enamoured with her story.

On a sidenote, it's funny how many of the few European female fighters whose names are on record seem to bear the name Jeanne. Apart from Captain des Armoises (whose story is known to us only thanks to her court case) I also found an article on a Countess Jeanne de Montfort. I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but still.

purplefood wrote:They could emphasise the genderless aspect of SM more but that would be kinda odd and they would probably be less popular as a result.

Agreed, which kinda makes one think. I still remember that huge "do they have wieners" thread.

Well then for all the GOT fans ..just kinda think of space marines as the 40k Unsullied...hmm that would make a cool name for a chapter.

Well, look at it this way, if there could be female marines, they would looks just like the male ones. All the genetic modifications and strimulants wouldn't keep a curvey, sexy form, it would be large and bulky, ESPECIALLY in power armour. And their faces wouldn't be beautiful, they would resemble their primarch, like most chapters do in some way. So they would look incredibly butch.

Von Chogg

 Furyou Miko wrote:
She was warrior enough not to get killed on a battlefield, which is harder than you seem to think.

Fact is, she was probably lying when she said that since she said it at her trial to avoid being burned at the stake.

Which is one of the most admirable things about her, I think: Everyone knows that she went to the stake without regrets and with her head held high, but it's not as popular to relate the fact that she tried damn hard to avoid it too.

Also, to anyone who says there were no female samurai: Tomoe Gozen would like to have a word or two with you.

Indeed, many people don't realize that Samurai was actually a social class and not simply a given rank. Women were often very capable fighters, its simply not discussed very much.

 Von Chogg wrote:
Well, look at it this way, if there could be female marines, they would looks just like the male ones. All the genetic modifications and strimulants wouldn't keep a curvey, sexy form, it would be large and bulky, ESPECIALLY in power armour. And their faces wouldn't be beautiful, they would resemble their primarch, like most chapters do in some way. So they would look incredibly butch.

Von Chogg

Except for Blood Angels, the Sons of Sanguinus are already bishis.

 Lynata wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:I could DEFINITELY see some Chaos apothecary (Fabius BIle? Variel?) trying to turn a Chaos marine into a woman as part of a long term process to circumvent the geneseed shortage by taking a step-by-step approach to breeding Space Marines. (Yes, I know they aren't fertile. That's why this is the first step in the process. )

Wouldn't this be kinda counter-productive, given that they get killed in battle? I do remember there was some story (probably in some BL novel) about someone experimenting with fully-grown Chaos Marines being born from Warp-mutated women (kind of like the Brood Mothers in Dragon Age I guess), but why would you put the means to breeding into combat when you can segregate them into focused roles, with one just fighting the whole time, and the other just being pregnant the whole time?

Unless ... hmm, unless somebody really wanted to turn the Space Marines from being a tool of war into an entirely new species, a "New Human". Was that what you were hinting at?
I've speculated in the past that the Emperor's scientists may have deliberately introduced the geneseed limitation to prevent that sort of thing...

That was the Daemonculaba incident in the Ultramarines book, the one who did the research was Warsmith Honsu of the Iron Warriors, and it was probably one of the more evil and most highly jacked up things in the 40k fluff. Not bad for a mere Chaos Space Marine.

On the women warriors note, lots of female pirates running around out there, Ching Shih is my favorite example, 19th century Chinese pirate, her fleet had 1,500 ships and over 80,000 men, the combined Chinese, British and Portugese navies weren't powerful enough to stop her. The Chinese government bought her off with a massive stack of gold and she retired.

Anne Bonny and Mary Read were female pirates in the crew of Calico Jack Rakham in the Caribbean, and were noted for their ruthlessness in the right. According to legend, when Calico Jack was being lead to the gallows Anne (who was pregnant with Rakham's child at the time, and thus escaped punishment/legal repurcussions on the capture of Rakham's ship) said to him "If you'd fought like a man you wouldn't be about to die like a dog". Sympathetic ain't she?

My answer has always been thus:

There are no female Space Marines, and all rumours of such are discarded by the Administratum out of hand, however the universe is a big place.....

On a sidenote, it's funny how many of the few European female fighters whose names are on record seem to bear the name Jeanne. Apart from Captain des Armoises (whose story is known to us only thanks to her court case) I also found an article on a Countess Jeanne de Montfort. I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but still.

Unless you consider the possibility that she has the "Eternal Warrior" USR.