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Platoon Guard can work and be pretty scary. You just need to buff it so that they don't run away as much and don't die as much. So... give them Spess Wulf allies and park them behind an Aegis defense line. GIve them artillery for more goodness. Now, how interesting that particular game will be depends on the player's tastes.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Any who, the IG flyers don't need a nerf, they just need their cost to increase.

Increasing its points cost IS a nerf, dude.

Not for the Vendetta. It would rule the FA slot even if it would cost 200 points. There is only solution for the Vendetta problem: remove it completely.

Yes for the Vendetta. No matter how good it is, no matter how good it is after the change. If it happens to be worse after the change it has been nerfed. Even if it is a single most game-breaking thing, making something weaker is nerfing it. Increasing it's price is making it weaker.

And there are a lot of solutions for Vendetta. Make it 11/11/10, not twin-link it's lascannons, remove some of the lascannons, increase it's price, change its special rules.
The other entries in FA probably also will be changed. I find it hard to believe that a complete rewrite of the rules does not make it possible to change the balance of a single vehicle.

 Macok wrote:

Yes for the Vendetta. No matter how good it is, no matter how good it is after the change. If it happens to be worse after the change it has been nerfed. Even if it is a single most game-breaking thing, making something weaker is nerfing it. Increasing it's price is making it weaker.

Oh, come on, some random price increase won't make the Vendetta weaker. It would only make all the other choices weaker because you would need to clear some stuff from your list to make place for the mighty Vendetta. To "nerf" the Vendetta through cost increase, you would need to cost it to 260-300+ points... But at that point you can just simply erase that ridiculous abomination from the Codex and replace it with something that is actually sensible.

however i do think the unit would be infinitly improved by making the lasgun S4 AP5

No. No you do not get this for five points.

 Dakkamite wrote:

however i do think the unit would be infinitly improved by making the lasgun S4 AP5

No. No you do not get this for five points.

He is right though.
The unit would be improved

 Dakkamite wrote:

however i do think the unit would be infinitly improved by making the lasgun S4 AP5

No. No you do not get this for five points.

You're right. It will be STR 10 AP 1 for one point.

Coincidentally, all IG infantry kits will cost $100 each.

 Dakkamite wrote:

however i do think the unit would be infinitly improved by making the lasgun S4 AP5

No. No you do not get this for five points.

LOL! Warrior Acolytes+Boltgun=5 ppm !

 Dakkamite wrote:

however i do think the unit would be infinitly improved by making the lasgun S4 AP5

No. No you do not get this for five points.

I get that for five points. Though the gun is 12 inch range and assault 1, and they have a 6+ armour save instead of a 5+, and they don't have access to special or heavy weapons. I could accept Guardsmen getting a 12 inch 1 shot S4 AP5 gun.

IG should not need allies, they have medics, commissars, standards their rules and costs should be adjusted.
It's ridiculous that you can attach a SM for FNP but the medic is command squad only.

That's just silly. If the vendetta cost 500 points, no one would take it. I think 200 points is reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:

however i do think the unit would be infinitly improved by making the lasgun S4 AP5

No. No you do not get this for five points.

You're right. It will be STR 10 AP 1 for one point.

Coincidentally, all IG infantry kits will cost $100 each.

you know that the most op army in fifth also happened to be the cheapest, right?

Every guardsmen's life is precious, said no commissioner ever.

I too am going to have to throw my hat into the ring supporting the basic trooper.

Is he/she(modeling ect) a marine,no,,,will he go screaming not to the face against terms,,yes,,,,,will they die quickly when left out in the open,,,yes,,,,

will they rock when you can easily field over 100 in a low points game ,spread out all over the place,using terrain ect causing your opponent all kinds of headaches.

you just have to except that guardsmen die,thats what they do,but theres always more,,,,name another army that can take 20-30 casualties a turn and still keep on coming?

Guardsmen alone will not win battles,but when used with the rest of the force,either tying up objectives,taking hits that your bigger units would take,screening ,outflanking,tarpitting nasty things,ect,,,,,they will carry the day.
<<<<written by an all footguard player. >

Gomericus wrote:
you just have to except that guardsmen die,thats what they do,but theres always more,,,,name another army that can take 20-30 casualties a turn and still keep on coming?

Tyranids, Orks, Chaos Daemons, Chaos Space Marines & Necrons (because they come back)

@makumba, that's why the codex needs balancing. The fact that we have a dedicated anti air tank, that is almost completely outclassed by another option should highlight that. If you did internal balance, hellhounds and their variants would be cheaper, vendettas cost more, etc. Hydras should be one of our main responses to fliers, yet its completely outclassed by what's supposed to be a close air support flier. I completely agree that hydras aren't so hot right now, I'm just trying to say that if the vendetta was nerfed a bit, it would give us an actual reason to use hydras again.

But if it doesn't out class other options and isn't cheap , then why take it or why even start playing IG at all , when necrons have cheap transports that are flyers and can spam them . A 200 or higher costed vendetta is not just nerfed , it is a worthless option , because there will only fit 2 in to 1500pts army and 2 die too fast to necron flyers and are too much of a gamble against other faction flyers and ground interceptors/skyfire units. If vendettas are nerfed , then why would anyone use hydras ? it doesn't make them good , they would need skyfire and interceptor for that and considering how AA options are costed by GW , there is a good chance to see hydras without interceptor and a 15-20pts cost increase. That ain't something good , for a unit that can only deal with stuff coming out of reservs.

Well to be fair there are a spate of things in the Necron book that need some attention, like last week.

Makumba wrote:

@makumba, that's why the codex needs balancing. The fact that we have a dedicated anti air tank, that is almost completely outclassed by another option should highlight that. If you did internal balance, hellhounds and their variants would be cheaper, vendettas cost more, etc. Hydras should be one of our main responses to fliers, yet its completely outclassed by what's supposed to be a close air support flier. I completely agree that hydras aren't so hot right now, I'm just trying to say that if the vendetta was nerfed a bit, it would give us an actual reason to use hydras again.

But if it doesn't out class other options and isn't cheap , then why take it or why even start playing IG at all , when necrons have cheap transports that are flyers and can spam them . A 200 or higher costed vendetta is not just nerfed , it is a worthless option , because there will only fit 2 in to 1500pts army and 2 die too fast to necron flyers and are too much of a gamble against other faction flyers and ground interceptors/skyfire units. If vendettas are nerfed , then why would anyone use hydras ? it doesn't make them good , they would need skyfire and interceptor for that and considering how AA options are costed by GW , there is a good chance to see hydras without interceptor and a 15-20pts cost increase. That ain't something good , for a unit that can only deal with stuff coming out of reservs.

I have a feeling we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

If the Hydra was buffed a bit, and the vendetta is nerfed, it makes the hydra more likely to see use. It may not be the best choice still, but it at least isn't worthless. In order to make the hydra more desirable than vendettas I have a feeling vendettas would have to lose twin linked and skyfire, while the hydra gained interceptor. And I'm pretty sure that will never happen.

What if Vendetta was heavy support? It's what everybody uses it for anyway...

 dementedwombat wrote:
What if Vendetta was heavy support? It's what everybody uses it for anyway...

I disagree. I need it for transport far more than I need it for TL LCs. If the Valkyrie's weapons didn't suck so hard, and the vendettas weapons weren't so amazing, then I think you'd see more of a mix.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
What if Vendetta was heavy support? It's what everybody uses it for anyway...

I disagree. I need it for transport far more than I need it for TL LCs. If the Valkyrie's weapons didn't suck so hard, and the vendettas weapons weren't so amazing, then I think you'd see more of a mix.

I'll take your word for it, since I'm not an IG player and don't play IG very often I can only base my opinion on what I read on the forums. I was mostly just throwing a random idea out there and seeing if it might shake things up a bit.

Make a vendetta a dedicated transport only option, maybe? Will that change anything?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Make a vendetta a dedicated transport only option, maybe? Will that change anything?

Yes brilliant, let's give people the ability to take over 3 Vendettas without having to squadron them, what could possibly go wrong?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Make a vendetta a dedicated transport only option, maybe? Will that change anything?

Imagine cron air, except twice as killy. That is what your idea is in a nutshell.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Make a vendetta a dedicated transport only option, maybe? Will that change anything?

I guess then you would start seeing "IG Flying Circus" becayse it would be a copy paste of the "Flying Bakery of Death" - 6 squads of minimum troops all in Vendettas.

And if that isn't enough, the IG player would fill the other slots with more flyers

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Makumba wrote:

@makumba, that's why the codex needs balancing. The fact that we have a dedicated anti air tank, that is almost completely outclassed by another option should highlight that. If you did internal balance, hellhounds and their variants would be cheaper, vendettas cost more, etc. Hydras should be one of our main responses to fliers, yet its completely outclassed by what's supposed to be a close air support flier. I completely agree that hydras aren't so hot right now, I'm just trying to say that if the vendetta was nerfed a bit, it would give us an actual reason to use hydras again.

But if it doesn't out class other options and isn't cheap , then why take it or why even start playing IG at all , when necrons have cheap transports that are flyers and can spam them . A 200 or higher costed vendetta is not just nerfed , it is a worthless option , because there will only fit 2 in to 1500pts army and 2 die too fast to necron flyers and are too much of a gamble against other faction flyers and ground interceptors/skyfire units. If vendettas are nerfed , then why would anyone use hydras ? it doesn't make them good , they would need skyfire and interceptor for that and considering how AA options are costed by GW , there is a good chance to see hydras without interceptor and a 15-20pts cost increase. That ain't something good , for a unit that can only deal with stuff coming out of reservs.

I have a feeling we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

If the Hydra was buffed a bit, and the vendetta is nerfed, it makes the hydra more likely to see use. It may not be the best choice still, but it at least isn't worthless. In order to make the hydra more desirable than vendettas I have a feeling vendettas would have to lose twin linked and skyfire, while the hydra gained interceptor. And I'm pretty sure that will never happen.

I would take hydras if they had interceptor on them! having to roll 6s to hit ground targets is lame. But if i could have a nice autocannon platform that could kill a flyer or lay waste upon hapless infantry I would be more inclined to take them in battle. plus they look cool.

Vendettas are just something thats going to have to be really really reworked. I dont know if it will be a nerf or a point increase, but my gut tells me it will have to be both. Simply put the Vendetta is too damn good and I never take the 3 hellhounds own because of it (and i love those hellhounds) I would like to see vendettas nerfed to the ground for one reason, and one reason only........It makes an already hard to transport army even harder to transport, seriously, those things are huge!

 TheDraconicLord wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Make a vendetta a dedicated transport only option, maybe? Will that change anything?

I guess then you would start seeing "IG Flying Circus" becayse it would be a copy paste of the "Flying Bakery of Death" - 6 squads of minimum troops all in Vendettas.

And if that isn't enough, the IG player would fill the other slots with more flyers

Won't that be very expensive to pull off though?

I didn't say troops can have them either...

Perhaps I should have specified : When I said make the vendettas a dedicated transport option, I meant only for Elites and HQ choices. Why would a bunch of grunts be given access to a heavily armed and pricy gunship?

That's a great way to balance it. Make vendettas a dedicated transport for a useless unit. Make that the only way.

Something like ratlings.

Because ratlings totally need to be carried into battle by a giant flying gun platform...

Even better, make it an assault vehicle that is a dedicated transport option for rough riders, but they assault out the ramp on the back. You can get bear cavalry charging down the assault ramp while your Vendetta exposes its rear armor to the entire enemy army.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Because ratlings totally need to be carried into battle by a giant flying gun platform...

Even better, make it an assault vehicle that is a dedicated transport option for rough riders, but they assault out the ramp on the back. You can get bear cavalry charging down the assault ramp while your Vendetta exposes its rear armor to the entire enemy army.

I like this idea. The thought of the IG just raining horses on the enemy is just too hilarious to pass up.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
Because ratlings totally need to be carried into battle by a giant flying gun platform...

Even better, make it an assault vehicle that is a dedicated transport option for rough riders, but they assault out the ramp on the back. You can get bear cavalry charging down the assault ramp while your Vendetta exposes its rear armor to the entire enemy army.

I like this idea. The thought of the IG just raining horses on the enemy is just too hilarious to pass up.

and better yet, you know somewhere in the grim darkness of the far future, not only was it done, but it was a good idea at the time.

"Just try to lance something on your way down!" "No no, all the saddles have grav chutes in them, you just cant see them, if you need the technical specs, just talk to the commissar"

Maybe its in a C.S. Goto novel

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
Because ratlings totally need to be carried into battle by a giant flying gun platform...

Even better, make it an assault vehicle that is a dedicated transport option for rough riders, but they assault out the ramp on the back. You can get bear cavalry charging down the assault ramp while your Vendetta exposes its rear armor to the entire enemy army.

I like this idea. The thought of the IG just raining horses on the enemy is just too hilarious to pass up.

and better yet, you know somewhere in the grim darkness of the far future, not only was it done, but it was a good idea at the time.

"Just try to lance something on your way down!" "No no, all the saddles have grav chutes in them, you just cant see them, if you need the technical specs, just talk to the commissar"

Maybe its in a C.S. Goto novel

If it has not been written, then I shall write it. It will be the worst best Black Library book ever, of all time.