Need some daemons help please - Few questions and some ideas.

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**Experiment 626**

nathan2004 wrote:
^Looks good i'm playing a 2999 pt game on Saturday (friendly game) and i'll be taking a similar list to this with the exception of taking MSU horrors over nettes and Fateweaver instead of LoC to help boost my magic (I'm facing dual Slann). I'm still debating on hounds with Jugger Axe Herald or Assassin Herald to go after the Slanns. Since your not playing mono or dual god army, is taking a BSB really necessary under the current rules?

The Nurgle BSB is great for a Plaguebrick because he's actually survivable due to his combination of T5 + Daemon of Nurgle bonus.

There's maybe a case to be made for a HoK BSB on Jugger, though he's ultra expensive. But Slaany & Tzeentch are a bad idea because they're just way too squishy, have no real method of gaining protection and thus hand out the VP bonus for killing the BSB way too easily.

nathan2004 wrote:
P.S. For all those who make it a point to bash our new army book could you please stop. You've made your point (which is a valid one), but what good does complaining on a forum do? If you want to complain to someone write GW a letter or give them a call. We had a good run in 7th and now we have to adapt our armies and do the best with what Mr. Ward gave us.

We've now had 3 out of 4 editions of being crap. Being the most hated, OP army for an edition and automatically being treated like TFG just for choosing Daemons wasn't much of a treat.
I've been playing Chaos on and off since the 5th edition Realm of Chaos book, and in all that time, Daemons on the whole for the most part have been lackluster with only 1-2 Gods ever being 'worthwhile'. (ie: in 5th, Khorne & Slaanesh were the shiz, while only Khorne was really playable in 6th)

I've been waiting with baited breath for 15 years for Daemons to finally get a good 'balanced' book, and I'd had decent hopes we'd finally get that after seeing the likes of VC's - long considered a broken/OP army, get a really well rounded & balanced book.
Alas we got another turd... But what's really galling, is that the new 40k Daemons which work on a very similar template are one of the best balanced 6th edition books! (probably tied with or just behind Eldar) Meaning it wasn't so much a case of us just lucking into a 'bad' design model, but rather the author in question didn't give a flying gak and half-arsed our book.

When you read the 40k book and see how much better implemented the new rules are, the Fantasy book is nothing but a huge disappointment.

So while I'm overjoyed that the power creepers have abandoned Daemons entirely for the most part, it's also not much fun getting my *** beaten into the ground game-in, game-out by everyone bar the poor Wood Elves & Beastmen.
Oh, and the new High Elf fiasco is unforgivable in my book, especially considering the same fething idiot wrote both books.

**Acardia**

at 3k games, there can be a disgusting ammout of chaff, even more so in the Midwest. I'd likely take a unit of Flamers. or Flame Cannons. I think they fit nicely in a counter chaff sort of role. Also the both times I used the Flame Cannon it drew a lot of attention.

Flamers are perfect for Anti Fanatic duty, but kinda meh elsewhere.

**nathan2004**

@Experiment 626 Just to clarify my post wasn't directed at you and i completely agree with your comments. But it is what it is and we got to make the best of it. Thanks for the feedback!

*Edited to fix the quote.

**Acardia**

Just tried a 3k (no grand army)heavy slannesh/ tzeeetch list with Karios, and 2 skull cannon.

Deep synergy and win.

2 units of 30 ladies, both lvl 1 of shadow, one rolled mind razor, and karios had it as well. other pit, bit, but vs DE took miasma.

**canadianguy**

Can't get copy to work on the iPad.
Concerning the posted list drop the loc for a kipper, better lore gives ld to nettes, kipper is very fast and hits hard.
My 2. Cents which in Canada now rounds down to zero so take it for what it is worth

**DarthSpader**

are the nurglings really that good? i am working up a daemons nurgle list, and kind of did not look at the nurglings... what makes them so good? or worth taking?

**DukeRustfield**

No they aren't. Almost no swarm is any good.

You're paying about 10pts a W/A for a unit almost exactly the same as a Plaguebearer except it has no poison, -1S/T (huge!) and can't be joined by a hero and thus doesn't get locus, and Nurgle loci are good. So I don't see them worth it except to stuff some wounds in a small area.

**Jackal**

Your missing something duke.
They are unbreakable, thus, do not suffer from instability.
That is huge for a daemon unit as losing a combat means nothing.
Nurgle units will rarely win combat, they just slog away.
This ability alone means your not losing a ton of wounds simply by being beaten in combat.

Granted, they are still pretty bad, but they have higher initiative, a ton more attacks for the frontage of a unit and no instability.

Ive run units of 4-6 bases in the last few games and they were pretty solid, infact, they are now in my list full time.
The best ability is still a large frontage so you can drag multiple units into combat, which is only won by either unit being killed, or the enemy running away.

Also, if its pure nurgle then they still benefit from the tally.
So +1 S and T, killing blow and re-rolling wards.
Granted the last 2 take some time to get, but the 1st 2 are pretty quick as killing 14 models via combat/shooting/magic is pretty damn quick.

I just think between beasts and nurglings you have a nice hammer and anvil.

**DukeRustfield**

If you're in range of BSB/General, Instability doesn't factor in toooo much. Your 4 movement base swarms aren't going to be going a million miles ahead of your main army, so they will at the worst take a few wounds from instability (if that). And it's hard to justify for all the stuff you give up.

And remember, the frontage of PB will still be 2 deep. And their higher ability to wound both from S and Poison, negates at least some of the higher # of attacks. Add in that you can have a Herald there with a Locus and his own personal combat powers and the PBs are just damn solid.

**Jackal**

Good points i guess, i just find though that multi-assaulting nurgle units is a real pain due to instability.
You can use nurglings as line breakers to stop this from happening alot.

They are more of a tarpit that is going nowhere until something dies, and you dont need to babysit them.

I did think about character tests on units, but it works both ways.
I tests will drop half your swarm (3 in my case)
Thats 18 plages in points value, and you will lose 12 of them.

But plagues win out on S and T tests, and also dont run the risk of losing a whole base at a time to such things.

Im not sure really, ive just found they have a pretty good synergy with beasts, without having to put a unit of plagues in the firing line as you will usually have your BSB there. (fencers blades and -1 to hit is allways fun)

Also duke, whats your take on drones?
Ive been tearing my hair out since they look amazing, but trying to find a use for them seems impossible as theres allways something that can and will do the job better.

**DukeRustfield**

I didn't mean char tests so much as having a Herald there to help you beat heads. I mean it's not a fair comparison PB+Herald+Locus vs. Nurglings, but Nurglings don't have the option of those other 2.

Also, I kind of thought of Beasts as more the Brick Wall of Nurgle™. They're damn solid with auto regen, poison and can even challenge. 4-6 nurgles is 200pts which is about 3 Beasts. Nurgling's 20 T3 wounds and 20S3 attacks vs. Beats 12 T5 wounds (regen) and 13.5 S 4 poison attacks + 3 Stomp.

Damn, I never looked at that before, but Beasts are really far ahead IMHO. I think you would have to use their Scout ability to make them worth the ability discrepancy. Like if you have to move your slow pokes up and the enemy is pure gunline. But they're basically a kinda expensive chaff.

Dude, you're the only one I've met who thinks those things look good. I specifically only browsed them because they look hideous to me. But in part that's Nurgle. It's hard for me to get behind the whole oozing gross bug concept.

Let's see, 3/5/5/3/4 +stomp. It's almost exactly the same as Beast cheaper and can have full command/banner. They get a 6+ armor because of mount, so they aren't exactly Bloodcrushers.

To me they are basically a means of giving Nurgle something (very) fast that's also a MC. It's tough to say whether they are as good as Bloodcrushers, it's pretty close. Less WS, +1T, Poison vs. KB, Less armor, nurgle daemon vs. khorne. But they can fly.

I don't rate Proboscis very high. The fly has S5 and it's problem isn't wounding. Same with Venom Sting. It adds too much cost IMHO.

Death's Heads MIGHT be useful. It would be rough vs. enemies like Ogres--and that's about it. They are skirmishers so hard to hit. And swifstride, so hard to catch. But unlike some smaller unit that is loling and retreating/reforming and shooting, Drones are pretty expensive. Full command with death's heads is going to cost what, like 200 for 3?

Anyway, if you're doing Nurgle/Epidemius, I think they're okay. You can add some speed to a normally slow army and even some shooting capacity. With Epidemius boosts, they very quickly become monsters. S6/T6 at 14 wounds. That's pretty crazy for a flying, warded unit.

**Jackal**

Beasts liveup to their name.
I would say they are possibly one of the best units in the book.

I only started using them for chaff, but after i saw the damage i took 2 as chaff on their own and a unit of 3.
Needless to say, they stick around for quite a whileand do a ton of damage pretty quickly.
Just a shame the model sucks badly as im using chaos spawn models that ive converted.

I love the plague flies

Not sure what it is about them, i just love the look haha.
I guess if im running a mono nurgle army then they can take out war machines, more so since a friend runs dwarf and i hate runed machines.
Thats the thing, the 1st 2 upgrades really dont have much use, but atleast deaths head might do.
I guess its something to throw at monsters if nothing else.

**HawaiiMatt**

The problem with nurgles is the unbreakable swarms come with crumble. So you aren't taking a leadership test, you're just taking extra wounds.
That's really the problem with swarms in 8th, they give up too many wounds to step up and supporting attacks, and then give them up again with combat res.

Plague Flys are awesome. For 60 points each you get 3 S5 poison attacks and 1 S4 poison attacks, 6+/5++. You don't have the regen, but you do have hover, so you're faster, can you can get command and a magic banner. Still WS3 and T5.

-Matt

**DukeRustfield**

Daemons aren't Unstable. They have their own rule. In it is a brief subrule that if a unit is Unbreakable, they don't test. Which is why it was such a punch to the nuts that WoC DP is Unbreakable and DoC DP isn't. I had wondered why they even included it, since I didn't know of any spell/ability that could give Unbreakable and didn't think any units had it--and none have that special rule explicitly listed, but Nurglings get it because of their unit type of swarm.

**HawaiiMatt**

DukeRustfield wrote:
Daemons aren't Unstable. They have their own rule. In it is a brief subrule that if a unit is Unbreakable, they don't test. Which is why it was such a punch to the nuts that WoC DP is Unbreakable and DoC DP isn't. I had wondered why they even included it, since I didn't know of any spell/ability that could give Unbreakable and didn't think any units had it--and none have that special rule explicitly listed, but Nurglings get it because of their unit type of swarm.

Unit Type SWARM is Unstable.

You're not taking Instability with Nurglings, because as you've pointed out unbreakable models don't test. You are outright taking wounds as outlined on page 78 for Unstable, as unit type Swarm must take (page 84).

Horrors of Tzeench that lose combat by 15, will take an Leadership test at LD 0 (as per FAQ) and take 1 wound for each they fail by. Nurglings losing combat by 15 don't test for instability, but instead take 15 more wounds.
Being T3 and easy to hit, Nurglings pop faster than most daemons.

-Matt

**DukeRustfield**

Yah, that's 2 things I forgot. But I don't blame myself, because Nurglings looked poopy anyway so I didn't look into them.

**phoenixrisin**

Experiment 626 wrote:
TanKoL wrote:
Most units are useful and quite good
Loads of previous daemons players loath this book because it's quite balanced and is not the gamebreaking powerhouse it was, don't listen to them

I'm not sure on Fateweaver, but I do think that he indeed chooses his spells
For Core, everything is quite solid:
Plaguebearers are your "heavy infantry", very resilient (with the -1 to be hit in CC) and killy enough
Horrors are your magic shooters (and channelers)
Daemonettes are your fast light infantry (very good at chewing loads of weak troops)
Bloodletters are your "elite" infantry, very happy to kill other elite troops with their KB and high WS / S

Beasts are indeed very good chaff/chaff killers, and can hold for quite some time
Cannons are too good for their price as they ignore the sole weakness of war machines (vulnerability to CC)
Don't forget the Nurglings who are very tough swarms as they don't suffer from the usual Unstable rule, and have the -1 to be hit as well (and they scout!)
I don't know that much about screamers, but one thing to keep in mind, an army wide 5+ ward save is very resilient, nothing to sneeze at

The book overall is a half-finished turd and there's no denying that or glossing it over... Look at every other 8th ed book to date - especially VC's, Empire & High Elves and you'll realise that we got a really raw deal.
Yes the army can work and yes you can make some competitive lists, but a lot of the mechanics are just clunky and overly gimmicky and there's a real blandness to everything. Units tend to be either 'really good' or 'really overcosted'.

Core for example is NOT quite solid;
- Bloodletters are 1-2 pts/model too expensive for what we get now. 1 WS5/S4 (S5 on the charge) Killing Blow attack per model on what is still a T3/5++ save is not worth what we pay. Add-on to this the inability to use the Flaming banner AND that pretty much every single elite unit will kick the crap out of them.

- Pink Horrors work best as MSU units to give you the extra channeling rolls. Going big units of them is pretty pointless, since there's only a couple Tzeentch spells you actually want on them, they're only ever a Lv1 Wizard (though extra ranks give you +1 to-cast upto +3), and you can build them up anyways through the spell damage they'll inflict.
The Blue Horror rule is nice, but overall it's not going to do much against most units. If they get into combat, they're toast.

- Daemonettes look mean, but S3 is still S3, and you need to rely on magic to get them to start carving through anything armoured. Plus again, T3/5++ dies to a sneeze.
You really need Herald support on them, but Slaaneshii Heralds are easily the outright worst Heroes in the entire game for their points!

- Plaguebearers are ridiculously good for their pts, especially when you add a Herald Locus to them, meaning everyone spams a big unit of them! They're simply so far ahead of the rest of our Core options that it isn't even funny.
This is most definitely a bad thing, simply because these guys are so far head of the rest of the pack! Once you look at what they can do, plus how the BSB rules work, AND that Nurgle Heralds can be protected, why would even contemplate anything else unless you're playing to a them?!

Daemon players overall do not 'loath this book because it's not OP', rather, we loath this book because it feels like a rushed, half-baked attempt just to put something on the shelf!

The book has easily the outright worst internal balance of any 8th ed book to date actually... Units are either auto-include, like Plaguebearers + Beasts + Ambushing Flesh Hounds + Skillcannons, or else they outright suck/are overcosted like non-Nurgle Heralds + Flamers + Slaaneshii chariots + Bloodletters... (oh hell, just the rest of the damn army book itself!)

Add to this the frankly ridiculous mechanics like the General/BSB stupidity, the Reign of Comedy table which really sodomises a player, the laughably crap organisation of Rewards, etc...

Seriously, just go read through the 40k Daemons book and the difference in overall quality & playability is like night and day.

couldn't have said it better myself.

**canadianguy**

Nurglings are stubborn in woods, can scout so could tie something up quickly.
How about nurgle marked furies. In quick, help set your army up positionally.
I agree about beasts easily in the top 3 for units in the book.

**jonolikespie**

Does stubborn mean anything to a unit that is unstable and demonic?

**Experiment 626**

jonolikespie wrote:
Does stubborn mean anything to a unit that is unstable and demonic?

Yes, Stubborn will effect your Ld for Instability tests, meaning that unlike Undead we do get something positive out of being Steadfast for example.