Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sure, just give me a second.

The 2012 event pack:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2450166a_40K_Kill_Team_Pack_Dec_2012_%281%29.pdf

The 2013 event pack:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2860630a_40K_Kill_Team_Pack_2013_%286%29.pdf

The First FAQ:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2600141a_Kill_Team_FAQ.pdf

The second FAQ:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3170054a_Kill_Team_Update_April_2013.pdf

Jinx - the first FAQ is for Operation Pronteus, not the Kill Team Event Pack 2013.

True.

Yet while it is designed for the 2012 kill team event it was the leading FAQ on the matter for the longest period of time. Not only that, but it was designed expressively to try and bring the old kill team rules up to date with 6th edition rules. It even still has the title of 'A kill Team FAQ,' and is hosted on the GW website, which many people take to mean it is still valid. For this reason it is a FAQ that many people still reference when it comes to kill teams, including the link provided by a different poster when he compiled the base rules for kill teams and both FAQ's together.

Personally, I believe the second FAQ over-rides the first because it addresses the latest kill team rules but I still included the previous edition for reference as I accept others do not think so.

OK I can see where you are coming from but by saying the FAQ's are used to bring the original rules up to 6th it leaves some big questions. I would have to say leave the first even pack out all together. They tweeked it for the second, based of some very breakable things like giving certain USRs to certain models. Why not simply use the rules as presented in the second event pack and the associated FAQ?

Edit: This is more directed to Ovion which per his statement altered the original Kill Team rules using the FAQs which appear to refer to the Kill Team event packs and not the original rules.

Well 22 Pink Horrors breaks kill teams anyway so the game is not viable in a competitive setting anyway. So you can go by an event pack or come up with your own rules but in any case it will be a bit of a fudge because kill teams is not really a fully formed rules set.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Well 22 Pink Horrors breaks kill teams anyway so the game is not viable in a competitive setting anyway. So you can go by an event pack or come up with your own rules but in any case it will be a bit of a fudge because kill teams is not really a fully formed rules set.

While that is a humorous warband, its nothing that wouldnt easily die. In fact it would be pretty uncompetitive vs several builds.

Fragile wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Well 22 Pink Horrors breaks kill teams anyway so the game is not viable in a competitive setting anyway. So you can go by an event pack or come up with your own rules but in any case it will be a bit of a fudge because kill teams is not really a fully formed rules set.

While that is a humorous warband, its nothing that wouldnt easily die. In fact it would be pretty uncompetitive vs several builds.

Not really that's a whole lot of Str 5. I believe that can take care of anything you can bring to the game following the rules packet.

Yeah that's 44d6 S5 Ap4 shots at 22 different targets. I really don't see any build that has a chance against it. They should kill about 17-18 infantry a turn regardless what they are. You take a MC or vehicle you kill 1 horror a turn. They kill a MC in 1 turn pretty much every time even a Riptide isn't going to last past turn 2 and against a vehicle as soon as 2 horrors get behind you game over.

Honestly what beats it?

As to the above - I checked it all, as best I could, to bring the rules to 6th ed, to make straight Kill Team rules for 40k, as found in the Battle Missions book.
There is the event pack, but its... subpar at best.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yeah that's 44d6 S5 Ap4 shots at 22 different targets. I really don't see any build that has a chance against it. They should kill about 17-18 infantry a turn regardless what they are. You take a MC or vehicle you kill 1 horror a turn. They kill a MC in 1 turn pretty much every time even a Riptide isn't going to last past turn 2 and against a vehicle as soon as 2 horrors get behind you game over.

Honestly what beats it?

Nobs in a battlewagon that's castled up?
Triarch Stalker?

Also, if you run the math properly (You forgot Psychic Tests and Deny The Witch) - Assume Daemons go first and assuming only shooting (being you seem to be).
You take 22 Pink Horrors.
Assuming all 22 take the Primaris Power (as you stated).
Assuming the Riptide is the Ion gun + SMS, with FnP (Specialist rule)

So that's 22 Psychic Tests on Ld7+3 - roughly 8% are going to fail, and 5% will suffer Perils. So that's 2 fail, 1 dies. That leaves 19 firing.
The Riptide gets to take a Deny The Witch against each Horror, so, 3 will do nothing. That leaves 16 firing.
Assuming the average of 3.5 shots per Horror, that's 56 Str5 shots hitting on 4's so 28 hits.
Wounding on 5's, that makes 9 wounds.
The Riptide take 1 Wound, so 8 wounds saved, 1 taken.
Takes the Toughness test - 1 in 6 chance of taking 2 wounds - (.66 of a wound stopped by FnP), and a 5 in 6 chance that he gets 4+ FnP. More than likely, it now has FnP4+
Also has a Soul Ablaze counter, so end turn - 50/50 chance it takes 2 Str4 hits, of which will do nothing anyway. (6 to wound, 2+ w/ 4+FnP, not a whole lot going to happen there)
Chances are, Riptide is going to kill 3 Horrors with his shooting.
18 Horrors left, Riptide is on 4 wounds.

Turn 2: 18 Horrors > 1 Fail + 1 Perils > 3 get denied > 13 fire > 8 wounds > 0.6 wounds taken - so probably one.
Chances are you just gave it FnP3+.
3 Die in return.
14 Horrors left. Riptide is on 3 wounds.

Turn 3: 14 Horrors > 1 Fail + 1 Perils > 2 get denied > 10 fire > 8 wounds > 0.4 wounds taken - so probably none.
Even calling it one wound, Chances are you just gave it FnP2+.
3 Die in return.
10 Horrors left. Riptide is on 2 wounds.

Turn 4: 10 Horrors. You're now at under half strength - 42% chance the whole Kill Team runs away. That's better than 50/50, so we'll say you stay.
So, 10 Horrors > 1 Fail + 1 Perils > 1 gets denied > 7 fire > 4 wounds > 0.1 wounds taken - so probably none.
3 Die in return.
10 Horrors left. Riptide is on 2 wounds.

Turn 5: 6 Horrors. Break Test > For giggles I actually rolled the dice. It was an 8. But we'll say you continued.
So, 6 Horrors > 1 Fail > 1 gets denied > 4 fire > 2 wounds > 0.06 wounds taken - so probably none.
3 Die in return.
3 Horrors left. Riptide is on 2 wounds.

Either way, Riptide Victory.

Of course, had you rolled the dice for Powers, then 7 would have had Tzeentch's Firestorm, 7 would have had Bolt of Change, and 8 would have Flickering Fire.
This would have played out differently, because Bolt is AP2.

Yes you roll for powers so against any vehicle or MC with 2+ save half the Horrors get bolt. Because you randomise between two and if you get firestorm you swap to flickering fire. Do the maths on say I get a little unlucky and get only 10 guys with bolt how long do your triarch stalker, Riptide, battlewagon nobs last then?

Yes if the person controlling the Horrors is a moron certain things can beat them. Against someone that isn't the Horrors beat everything every time with no effort required.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also given that the Riptide can only target 1 horror a turn how is he killing 3? Do the maths passing he kills 1 horror a turn like heactually will...

Doesn't Tyranids have some sort of table wide screw with psykers ability?
You can get a Zoanthrope and ~23 Hormagaunts; or just 33 hormagaunts.

With enough terrain, I think the massed feeding gaunt wave has a shot at it.

-Matt

In kill teams you can split your shots between eligible targets so therefor they can fire at more than just a single unit/model.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Doesn't Tyranids have some sort of table wide screw with psykers ability?
You can get a Zoanthrope and ~23 Hormagaunts; or just 33 hormagaunts.

With enough terrain, I think the massed feeding gaunt wave has a shot at it.

-Matt

It's only 12" range, not table wide.

This is a suggestion - and I have played a couple games so the suggestion is nicely padded with actual game time - I would suggest you head over to http://heralds-of-ruin.blogspot.com/p/kill-team-rules.html and look at their homebrew Kill team rules. I really do enjoy it, its quick, easy, fun, and they have rules for continuing. I wish the advancements/injury table was a little more closely tied with Mordhiem, but we will probably just homebrew it in! But for those for a pick up game it still is amazing army lists. Please do check it out and support (it is very balanced - and your characters are not dead when they lose that last wound)

Even with that the Horrors still kill him first and he kills less than 3 a turn. He only puts out 4.5 hits and I've a 5+ invun rerolling 1s...

 EmbracetheChaos wrote:
I don't see how 2+/5++ is any better than a squad of termies with 2+/5++. Is it better because Tau doesn't have the option to take decent armor/invulns?

As stated above, the heavy firepower seems somewhat wasted in kill teams. I would rather have 5 models with 5 storm bolters that can shoot 5 targets, even with my godawful rolls.

the riptide is still 100% effective until it loses it's last wound. 5 termies lose 20% of their effectiveness every wound they take.

In Kill Team, I'm actually thinking Fusion Blaster + Heavy Burst Cannon might be the best option.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Well 22 Pink Horrors breaks kill teams anyway so the game is not viable in a competitive setting anyway. So you can go by an event pack or come up with your own rules but in any case it will be a bit of a fudge because kill teams is not really a fully formed rules set.

What is the range on them? I still love my DE reavers running around with 3+ cover saves(some with more) Still would probably lose but I could hope for more terrain.

While Riptide seems really cool, overall its too many eggs in one basket. It will fall to quantity of firepower.

 Ovion wrote:
As to the above - I checked it all, as best I could, to bring the rules to 6th ed, to make straight Kill Team rules for 40k, as found in the Battle Missions book.
There is the event pack, but its... subpar at best.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yeah that's 44d6 S5 Ap4 shots at 22 different targets. I really don't see any build that has a chance against it. They should kill about 17-18 infantry a turn regardless what they are. You take a MC or vehicle you kill 1 horror a turn. They kill a MC in 1 turn pretty much every time even a Riptide isn't going to last past turn 2 and against a vehicle as soon as 2 horrors get behind you game over.

Honestly what beats it?

Nobs in a battlewagon that's castled up?
Triarch Stalker?

Also, if you run the math properly (You forgot Psychic Tests and Deny The Witch) - Assume Daemons go first and assuming only shooting (being you seem to be).
You take 22 Pink Horrors.
Assuming all 22 take the Primaris Power (as you stated).
Assuming the Riptide is the Ion gun + SMS, with FnP (Specialist rule)

So that's 22 Psychic Tests on Ld7+3 - roughly 8% are going to fail, and 5% will suffer Perils. So that's 2 fail, 1 dies. That leaves 19 firing.
The Riptide gets to take a Deny The Witch against each Horror, so, 3 will do nothing. That leaves 16 firing.
Assuming the average of 3.5 shots per Horror, that's 56 Str5 shots hitting on 4's so 28 hits.
Wounding on 5's, that makes 9 wounds.
The Riptide take 1 Wound, so 8 wounds saved, 1 taken.
Takes the Toughness test - 1 in 6 chance of taking 2 wounds - (.66 of a wound stopped by FnP), and a 5 in 6 chance that he gets 4+ FnP. More than likely, it now has FnP4+
Also has a Soul Ablaze counter, so end turn - 50/50 chance it takes 2 Str4 hits, of which will do nothing anyway. (6 to wound, 2+ w/ 4+FnP, not a whole lot going to happen there)
Chances are, Riptide is going to kill 3 Horrors with his shooting.
18 Horrors left, Riptide is on 4 wounds.

Turn 2: 18 Horrors > 1 Fail + 1 Perils > 3 get denied > 13 fire > 8 wounds > 0.6 wounds taken - so probably one.
Chances are you just gave it FnP3+.
3 Die in return.
14 Horrors left. Riptide is on 3 wounds.

Turn 3: 14 Horrors > 1 Fail + 1 Perils > 2 get denied > 10 fire > 8 wounds > 0.4 wounds taken - so probably none.
Even calling it one wound, Chances are you just gave it FnP2+.
3 Die in return.
10 Horrors left. Riptide is on 2 wounds.

Turn 4: 10 Horrors. You're now at under half strength - 42% chance the whole Kill Team runs away. That's better than 50/50, so we'll say you stay.
So, 10 Horrors > 1 Fail + 1 Perils > 1 gets denied > 7 fire > 4 wounds > 0.1 wounds taken - so probably none.
3 Die in return.
10 Horrors left. Riptide is on 2 wounds.

Turn 5: 6 Horrors. Break Test > For giggles I actually rolled the dice. It was an 8. But we'll say you continued.
So, 6 Horrors > 1 Fail > 1 gets denied > 4 fire > 2 wounds > 0.06 wounds taken - so probably none.
3 Die in return.
3 Horrors left. Riptide is on 2 wounds.

Either way, Riptide Victory.

Of course, had you rolled the dice for Powers, then 7 would have had Tzeentch's Firestorm, 7 would have had Bolt of Change, and 8 would have Flickering Fire.
This would have played out differently, because Bolt is AP2.

We've been using the packet, so no Riptides running around as you must have at least 3 models in a Kill Team.

I take it is too expensive to take the riptide and its drones then.

How many reavers do you get? 6 how long do they stand up to 56 S5 shots?

You're getting 2000 points of pink horror firepower in the PH kill team. That breaks the game flatout.

Pink Horrors are indeed broken ATM, but that's really about all that is. Riptides are stupidly good in the Kill Team mission they provide - you only have 1 specialist so the enemy can't get the other 2 VP for killing your other specialists. Likewise, they can't be forced to make breaks tests (when your model count is below half, you're tabled because you only had 1 model). That's why the 3 model limit was put in place. Likewise, the wounds one is to restrict Doom of Malan'tai with eternal warrior - you literally mitigate its one weakness and then give it free reign which is bad. AFAIK the list that won the last WW event was EW Doom+3 Ranvengers, one with armourbane and the other fleshbane. It was nasty anyway. I would bet on the psychic choir thing being fixed before the next event happens too.

I just take 4 Nob Bikers and have a lil fun with it.

Stealth, Shrouded, FnP wee

Also that Riptide calculation is a bit wonky. Nobody runs the Ion Accelerator in Kill Team. Why would you? The large blast will rarely kill a lot and you can split shots, so you want as many as possible to protect you from both hordes and elite models. You can still Nova charge for rending too. Almost everyone used Riptide w/HBC+SMS, specialist rule FNP. Chance of a Pink Horror to save is 7/18. That means you're getting ~2.3 kills per turn, ~3.2 if you ripple fire. Of course, this is all fairly irrelevant - in a Kill Team event, the Riptide WILL be upgraded from leader stuff. It will usually get 8+ kills too, so by the 3rd round it'll usually have either better toughness (meaning the horrors have a 1/36 chance to wound at all, so they need to take other powers to effectively do... well, anything at all really) or another rule like preferred enemy or IWND. Riptides are illegal with good cause...

Are we still discussing rules or have we moved on to Tactics?