Black Templars: Codex or Supplement?

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**J0kerrMT**

They will be in the Space Marine Codex..and I say good.

**Icculus**

d3m01iti0n wrote:
If all chapters got rolled I would say fine, supplement. But the DA book is already out, and SW and BA will definitely get their own books. Nine years ago the BT book was all about non Codex-adherent they are. Now theyre in the Codex Astartes book? An idiotic, fluff ignorant move on GWs part and a slap in the face to its customers.

This

The whole reason they are Black Templars is because they didn't follow the Codex Astartes. So to have them IN the codex astartes seems a bit silly. Especially when armies like the Blood Angels and Dark Angels do follow it.

If you put them in the codex astartes, they may as well be Imperial Fists, who are still cool, but not as defiantly zealous as the BT.

**J0kerrMT**

Give them two or three unique entries and 4 or 5 unique rules in the codex..and done. BTs!

**1hadhq**

As prologue:
Codex or the eternal crusade ending was the question here? Because I got no use of a supplement . Points at flag.

AL-PiXeL01 wrote:A supplement should do for each of the space marine chapters, even the first founding ones.
The imperium is supposed to have stagnated 10,000 years ago, yet these chapters show remarkable developments and deviations from their starting point.
If CSM do not develop even though their techs have the freedom to innovate then why should SM?
Each chapter could be given a few pages to point out their slight differences, because as we all know they are all, or asquire to be Ultra Marines anyway ...

lord_blackfang wrote:Give 'em a page in C:SM and be done with it. I don't want moar mahreens clogging up the release schedule regardless of format.

SilverMK2 wrote:It should be folded into a single Space Marine codex along with all the other colours of marines except Grey Knights, which should go into the Forces of the Imperium codex along with SoB and the Ad Mech etc...

J0kerrMT wrote:They will be in the Space Marine Codex..and I say good.

Oh look

Heretics...

.. erm, followers of the ruinous "powers" , right?

Basically we see a lot of guess work.
Someone mentions a cover - but the 3rd ed Rulebook had them right there and where could I find BT? Not the BRB.
Other people claim supplements would do - but supplements covered things we already had so far :
like Eldar > Iyanden, Tau > Farsight. You don't need the supplements to play Iyanden or Farsight....

So until these "confirmations" come from a valid source, ie the Design Team, a printed dex to look at for example, those who just dislike the BT and hope they go away can

.

Imagine this :
Every codex is available as limited edition. Plus supplements to charge for recycled fluff, a bit more fluff , pics and some characters and maybe a different warlord table.
Compared to Codices pre-6th ed there is a ton of money to be made.
Created out of???
Add to this nice fountain of easily picked wealth the DLC .
Stuff we had in WD, something collected into IA and CA , now sold piecemeal.

I don't want the publications splintered, do not enjoy incomplete products plus addons and I certainly do not believe the BT could keep what they have without distributing loads of it to the smurfs&friends.

Vote Codex.

Its the only Option to escape smurfhood.

**phatonic**

It scares me 50% want it as a suplment... you guys clearly not played BT!

**Tyranid Horde**

They haven't read the codex obviously too.

**Troike**

J0kerrMT wrote:
They will be in the Space Marine Codex..and I say good.

I'm actually kinda happy about it. I can have Black Templar allies for my Sisters!

Spoiler:

**Icculus**

Well that picture is so cute that it must be burned as heresy.

**Manchu**

I don't play BT, never have played them, probably never will, but I would prefer that they had their own dex. I think they are by far the most divergent SM chapter -- they seem to have more in common with the Legions of old than Guilliman's formations.

**phatonic**

Well it's sadly been confirmed... BT are into the SM codex.. but not as a supplment.
http://apocalypse40k.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/new-space-marine-details-courtesy-of.html

**Flying Toaster**

Wow, that is depressing, but I am not surprised at all.

**Imperial Deceit**

This has been pretty extensively explored over here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/543907.page

**DarknessEternal**

Where's the choice for neither?

A few hundred marines don't deserve their own anything when trillions of Imperial Guardsmen are all exactly the same.

**Imperial Deceit**

Once upon a time guardsmen used to have different rules for certain armies. Like catachans had jungle fighter. However that went away in 5th.

**gnoise**

Imperial Deceit wrote:This has been pretty extensively explored over here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/543907.page

Yeah, but this thread is about which of the two would have been more supported (I guess would be the term?) for DakkaDakka. To me at least, this and that thread are different unless a MOD says otherwise.

DarknessEternal wrote:Where's the choice for neither?

A few hundred marines don't deserve their own anything when trillions of Imperial Guardsmen are all exactly the same.

I get the impression you don't know the BT.

**The Crusader**

phatonic wrote:
Well it's sadly been confirmed... BT are into the SM codex.. but not as a supplment.
http://apocalypse40k.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/new-space-marine-details-courtesy-of.html

Hrrmm, I'll wait until I hear it from the horse's mouth. Plus rolling them into the SM book doesn't fit with the whole "Price hike and sell everything at a months rent and your first-born child". It's all a case of what can they sell that'll be more expensive.

And if we do, WHY THE

HELL ARE THE TEMPLARS COPPING THE FLAK?!?! Bunch o' slack-jawed sacks of monkey-gak. F

rs

**gnoise**

Because the Cruddace heard the cries of a million Black Templars, and silenced them.

**BlaxicanX**

Codex: Black Templars was the first 40K codex I ever read, and Black Templars was the first army I played on the table-top.

Thus, I'm extremely excited for them being rolled into the SM codex.

Finally, they get an update every edition rather than having to wait for a decade. Finally, they get access to all the cool new toys and bits and pieces that's in the newest C:SM dex without needing faq's to say so (like being able to take bikes as troops. Imagine how awesome it would be to have a black templars biker army! Yes!). Finally, they're forced to be given the same amount of care and attention as the poster-boy chapter(s).

I can't wait, truthfully. Even just ten pages devoted to them would work. You only really need two full pages of text to describe how the Templars are significantly different from the Codex Complaint chapters (in fact I just looked at the 4E book, and the actual overall description of the chapter is only about 2 pages long when you crop out all the massive pictures that take up half a page). After that, you can have the typical "fluff timeline" that shows series of events the Black Templars participate in over the years. In the 4E codex, that timeline is two pages long, so you could do the same thing here. That's 4 pages. The remaining six can easily be spent on showing the Chapter's special rules (in the codex, that section is only 3 pages long, and that's with the big pictures and pretty trimmings along the pages), and special characters. Frankly, the only special character we'd need is the Emperor's Champion. At the end of the day there's nothing Helbrecht has that isn't already available in the chapter master options, and Grimaldus doesn't need his own profile either- he just needs black templar fluffy rules that are swapped with the generic Chaplain rules. The remaining few pages would be dedicated to showing the rules for having initiates and neophytes, and BOOM! Our shiny Black Templar force is ready to go. And that's with ten pages. The new dex is apparently huge, so we could get even more pages to devote to the chapter.

I'm excited.

**gnoise**

BlaxicanX wrote:
I can't wait, truthfully. Even just ten pages devoted to them would work. You only really need two full pages of text to describe how the Templars are significantly different from the Codex Complaint chapters (in fact I just looked at the 4E book, and the actual overall description of the chapter is only about 2 pages long when you crop out all the massive pictures that take up half a page). After that, you can have the typical "fluff timeline" that shows series of events the Black Templars participate in over the years. In the 4E codex, that timeline is two pages long, so you could do the same thing here. That's 4 pages. The remaining six can easily be spent on showing the Chapter's special rules (in the codex, that section is only 3 pages long, and that's with the big pictures and pretty trimmings along the pages), and special characters. Frankly, the only special character we'd need is the Emperor's Champion. At the end of the day there's nothing Helbrecht has that isn't already available in the chapter master options, and Grimaldus doesn't need his own profile either- he just needs black templar fluffy rules that are swapped with the generic Chaplain rules. The remaining few pages would be dedicated to showing the rules for having initiates and neophytes, and BOOM! Our shiny Black Templar force is ready to go. And that's with ten pages. The new dex is apparently huge, so we could get even more pages to devote to the chapter.

I feel that removing the named characters would, IMHO, put the BT dangerously close to being scrapped then. Without any named characters such as Helbrecht and Grimaldus new players would probably just give them a pass compared to Lysander, Vulkan, Shrike, and other non BT named characters. The Emperor's Champion, while being good as a CC model, is overshadowed by the other CC beast in the coming 'dex. And right now the BT Vows are (supposedly) changed for a Chapter Tactics ruling so that basically takes away half of what was good about the Emperor's Champion. But this is going off topic so I'm gonna stop here.

**BlaxicanX**

If Helbrecht and Grimaldus in their current incantations were put into the codex, they'd still be overshadowed by the simply superior characters in the Codex. I mean, even just going off of 5E, the special characters in C:SM are pretty much superior to all the characters in C:BT. Helbrecht is currently an overpriced, sub-par beatstick. Grimaldus is even more overpriced for what he does. With his strength 6 AP3 attacks, 2+/4++ and army-wide buffs from vows, the EC is the Black Templar's best special character anyway.

So, nothing really changes. In order for any of the BT special characters to hang with C:SM SC's, they'll need to be buffed. I'm saying that Grimaldus and Helbrecht can be left out because they don't actually bring anything special to the table. Helbrecht is literally just a run of the mill chapter master. Grimaldus, while an utter badass in the fluff, is just a badass chaplain who bestows typical chaplain buffs. The Emperor's Champion on the other hand is a genuinely unique character, and even having a chapter tactic as simple as "If the Emperor's Champion is taken as your warlord, all non-vehicles taken from Codex: Space Marines have the "Zealot" and "Crusader" rules would make him worth taking for anyone who wants an assaulty SM army.

That's not even counting warlord traits. Imagine the EC having a warlord trait that gave himself and all infantry within 6'' of him the rage or rampage special rule.

**1hadhq**

BlaxicanX wrote:Codex: Black Templars was the first 40K codex I ever read, and Black Templars was the first army I played on the table-top.

Thus, I'm extremely excited for them being rolled into the SM codex.

Just as planned.

Someone has to buy those limited edition books.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Finally, they get an update every edition rather than having to wait for a decade.

I am very patient.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Finally, they get access to all the cool new toys and bits and pieces that's in the newest C:SM dex

You could always play 'counts as'.

BlaxicanX wrote:
like being able to take bikes as troops. Imagine how awesome it would be to have a black templars biker army!.

Heard the complaints of the WS fans in the rumor thread?
Bikes as troops belongs to DA

BlaxicanX wrote:
Finally, they're forced to be given the same amount of care and attention as the poster-boy chapter(s).

Points at rumor thread, CT debate UM vs multicolor marines. I'd hit the brakes right now. Theres a wall ahead.

BlaxicanX wrote:
I can't wait, truthfully. Even just ten pages devoted to them would work. You only really need two full pages of text

2 pages was good in codex armageddon.
When we shared a dex with Sallies and orks, but had a "main SM dex for all, except traitors" .

BlaxicanX wrote:
to describe how the Templars are significantly different from the Codex Complaint chapters

Sure lots of complaints among the chapters will come when the dex is released. Rumors never paint a complete picture.

BlaxicanX wrote:
I'm excited.

Was obvious in your post.

BlaxicanX wrote:Grimaldus, while an utter badass in the fluff, is just a badass chaplain who bestows typical chaplain buffs.

I have to insist on that masonry being dragged around.

BlaxicanX wrote: Imagine the EC having a warlord trait that gave himself and all infantry within 6'' of him the rage or rampage special rule.

Rumors say 2 USR ( adamantium will and crusader ). BT specific warlord traits aren't mentioned yet.

Stay excited.

We will get to the real book and maybe you'll need this excitement then.

So if they don't get BT right, what else could ol Cruddy&friends "improve"?

*turns to his other SM*

Ultramarines as "vendettas", BT as "rough riders" , IF as "ogryns", RG as "Ratlings" , IH as "LRBT" , WS as "stormtroopers" , Sally as "hellhounds" , yes ?

**gnoise**

BlaxicanX wrote:
If Helbrecht and Grimaldus in their current incantations were put into the codex, they'd still be overshadowed by the simply superior characters in the Codex. I mean, even just going off of 5E, the special characters in C:SM are pretty much superior to all the characters in C:BT. Helbrecht is currently an overpriced, sub-par beatstick. Grimaldus is even more overpriced for what he does. With his strength 6 AP3 attacks, 2+/4++ and army-wide buffs from vows, the EC is the Black Templar's best special character anyway.

So, nothing really changes. In order for any of the BT special characters to hang with C:SM SC's, they'll need to be buffed. I'm saying that Grimaldus and Helbrecht can be left out because they don't actually bring anything special to the table. Helbrecht is literally just a run of the mill chapter master. Grimaldus, while an utter badass in the fluff, is just a badass chaplain who bestows typical chaplain buffs. The Emperor's Champion on the other hand is a genuinely unique character, and even having a chapter tactic as simple as "If the Emperor's Champion is taken as your warlord, all non-vehicles taken from Codex: Space Marines have the "Zealot" and "Crusader" rules would make him worth taking for anyone who wants an assaulty SM army.

That's not even counting warlord traits. Imagine the EC having a warlord trait that gave himself and all infantry within 6'' of him the rage or rampage special rule.

From my standpoint, it just sounds like you want the BT to be a background Chapter, similar to the Iron Hands where they are important but are just there. Nothing that will really make them stand out from the rest as the game as a whole continues on. And C:SM are about Codex Compliant Chapters, not Chapters who burn the Codex Astrates for the lulz. With BT special units being (supposedly) stripped away, such as Sword Brethren, what else makes the BT in the new 'dex stand out?

The Emperor's Champion is only a challenging model and while being good at it, that's all you can do with him. Crusader Squads are only a crumb of comfort with nothing majorly improved upon. Cheaper points? That's nice, but expected. Two power weapons (supposedly) in the squad? Lovely, if they can get to CC quickly. Otherwise they'll get shot to oblivion before they can do any real harm.

From my standpoint, the BT just got squatted but with the illusion of still being around.

**Icculus**

Now way, the Black Templar are just as characteristically badass as they have always been. This new codex and new rules to play them does not change their history. All this means is that they now get access to all of the updated models and units that will make them competitive.

At first I was a little upset about it because I thought they deserved their own rulebook, but being in the SM codex does not mean you are just SM.

I mean, when you play Salamanders, you know that you are, and know they have unique tricks. When you play White Scars, its obvious and you get the feel for that army.

Same thing will hold true with BT.

**gnoise**

Icculus wrote:
Now way, the Black Templar are just as characteristically badass as they have always been. This new codex and new rules to play them does not change their history. All this means is that they now get access to all of the updated models and units that will make them competitive.

At first I was a little upset about it because I thought they deserved their own rulebook, but being in the SM codex does not mean you are just SM.

I mean, when you play Salamanders, you know that you are, and know they have unique tricks. When you play White Scars, its obvious and you get the feel for that army.

Same thing will hold true with BT.

I'm not saying that the BT are any less awesome in their fluff, but that being rolled into C:SM killed them as a army on the tabletop. To me, they went from being a Assault Army to a Gunline Army and that is not what the BT are about, last I checked. Getting new models is all fine and dandy, but losing your Codex for 2-3 new models is not a worthy trade off in my opinion. And if I remember what the BT Chapter Tactic was, it was basically a Challenge buff or one of the vows (don't remember off the top of my head). Is getting one of those rules worth trading four vows?

Quoted from Bolter&Chainsword that summarized what I felt was gained and lost (hope they don't mind);

Well as an answer to [USER] of the things we gained... I actually agree that we did gain quite a few... what frustrates me is that we lost more than what we gained...

Here's how I see it...
Gained:
Cheaper Marines
AP 2 Black Sword
All stuff from C:SM (please let the Ven. Dread be cheaper than the Iron Clad
Still no Psykers
Free Grenades
Possibility of Orbital Bombardment for Marshals
Sergeant guy in Crusader Squads (actually guys if you read C:BT pg. 8 Fighting Companies you'll read that: "Unlike other Chapters, most of these squads (refering to Squads in battle Co.) will have no Vet. Sergeants but for fluffs sake I will not call them Sergeants, nor Sword Brothers, a new name is required... maybe Aspirant or young Champion?
Updated Helbrecht and Grimaldus
Better PA Sword Brethren
Loss
Fully Customisable IC
Monstrous Creature type Chaplains
HQ slot for EC (or is this gain?), yes I need that HQ slot in-case I want to run 2 Command Squads
Vows with Rage
Tank Hunters for Terminators and Dreadnoughts
Infiltrating Command Squads
S9 Thunder Hammers, (yes there are Monstrous Creatures in my Backyard....)
Blessed Hull (which was really important against Reaver Spams and I was the last guy that DE player wants to fight...)
Easier way to get to Guardsmen/Tau/Eldar gunline, yes I was referring to the heroic sacrifice of Neophyte James, and Vinve, and Charles, etc. etc.
PotMS Vindicators/Predators, I want to shoot that TLLC/Demolisher Cannon without being a Snap Shot after moving 12"
Fully Customisable Techmarines
Still not 20-Marines Crusader Squad... yes, I want a Horde....
Not sure but probably no advancement to fluff...
Holy Orb of Antioch (I'll miss the Monty Python ref. if nothing else)
Cenobyte Servitors for any BT Chaplains
70 pts. Land Speeder typhoons (missile spamming will never be fun again...)
Terminator Command Squads (what will I do now with my Terminator Command Squad... run them as DW I guess....)
Terminator Honours
Rites of Battle
Crusader Seals, yes they were handy at getting me into that Crucial Melee
Fully Customisable Command Squads... expensive yes, but turns them into a Melee Munching MC.
I'm pretty sure I've left a few things out... but well... I'll miss these, especially Blessed Hull as there are tons of DE where I am right now (they were like whoopie!!! no MORE blessed Hull!!! no more Blessed Hull!!! sigh....wallbash.gif ) And as you can see the fluff might not even get expanded until the supplement...
so all in all we gained a few things, and those few things could turn the tide for us in games... but did we really have to lose that much to gain what should've been ours in the 1st place?

**Wilytank**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Blood Angels have Red Thirst and Descent of Angels. That's it. Templars have Righteous Zeal, No pity! No remorse! No fear!, Abhor the Witch and Vows. Not sure what you're on about.

We're talking about a serious gene seed defect vs. a stubborn attitude. I can easily see which is more unique.

**Jidmah**

If rumors are true, Hellbrecht now is a Goff warboss and got Gork's (or Mork's) official persmission to call a Waaagh!

You didn't see that one coming, did you, Imotekh?

I think it's amusing how all the BT players are crying foul for getting rolled into the codex, while the DA players are crying foul for not getting rolled into the codex.

As far as I can tell, BT pretty much got to keep everything they had (except the stuff mostly resulting from old rules) and got crapton of new toys in exchange, while not having to wait another decade for their codex. Win-Win?

Personally, I'm thinking about starting a BT army now.

**Wilytank**

Troike wrote:
J0kerrMT wrote:
They will be in the Space Marine Codex..and I say good.

I'm actually kinda happy about it. I can have Black Templar allies for my Sisters!

Spoiler:

If this is any indicator, the Templars are keeping their current ally matrix.

**Troike**

Wilytank wrote:
Troike wrote:
J0kerrMT wrote:
They will be in the Space Marine Codex..and I say good.

I'm actually kinda happy about it. I can have Black Templar allies for my Sisters!

Spoiler:

If this is any indicator, the Templars are keeping their current ally matrix.

Awww, that'd be a shame. Quite wanted to have some fanatical zealots fighting alongside my fanatical zealots.

**MWHistorian**

I hope they treat the BT's better than GW treated the traitor legions. It would be like, "Any SM army can have an Emperor's Champion and everyone just kinda has the same stuff, you just paint them different and pretend you're playing a separate army! Oh, and everything's boring now."
Personally, I'll wait and see how they handle it. They might actually be able to squeeze in enough unique rules to make playing BT's still feel like playing BT's. Or....they just give them one special rule and call it a day.

**gnoise**

Most likely that latter. Aside from the UM, why favor one side more then the others?